Valve oiling question - not mods

[Bryan]

Tried to determine how valve tappets and guides are oiled.   Most searches for oiling gets into the crankshaft and camshaft mods. Don't want to discuss that. Wondering how the valve guides get oil, and where does the tappet reservoirs get their oil?  On each end of the valve area there is a larger hole, one near the timing chain, one near the rear draft tube. I circled them in red in my pictures. How does oil flow into the reservoirs?   How do the upper guides get oiled?   I see Chrysler Tech diagrams for how oil is sprayed from underneath by the rod holes (last picture), but nothing about oiling above in the valve area.

[kencombs]

Splash from the crank rotation and oil that has passed through the rod and main bearings get thrown around.   Somewhere I found a video long ago taken by a camera inserted into a running engine's crankcase.   It looks like 1/2 the total oil is moving around in there all the time!

[47 dodge 1.5 ton]

I believe vacuum sucks oil, mainly when going down hill. That’s what I have always been told. 

[Bryan]

15 hours ago, kencombs said:

Splash from the crank rotation and oil that has passed through the rod and main bearings get thrown around.   Somewhere I found a video long ago taken by a camera inserted into a running engine's crankcase.   It looks like 1/2 the total oil is moving around in there all the time!

Do you think it's splash into the larger holes on both ends of the valve train?  The front hole is from the timing chain area. The small row of holes is covered by the lifter/tappets.   On picture shows how they are lubricated by the reservoirs.  How does oil get to them and the valve stems?  

[Bryan]

10 minutes ago, Bryan said:

Do you think it's splash into the larger holes on both ends of the valve train?  The front hole is from the timing chain area. The small row of holes is covered by the lifter/tappets.   On picture shows how they are lubricated by the reservoirs.  How does oil get to them and the valve stems?  

Finding out on Youtube.  This video between 2:00 - 3:00 minutes. You can see it at one point seeping from the front large hole but nowhere else.  He only has the front cover open.  Flathead Live Tappet Action & Valve Set Performance Gains - YouTube

[kencombs]

34 minutes ago, Bryan said:

Finding out on Youtube.  This video between 2:00 - 3:00 minutes. You can see it at one point seeping from the front large hole but nowhere else.  He only has the front cover open.  Flathead Live Tappet Action & Valve Set Performance Gains - YouTube

Just remember, what you see on utube is idle speed, somewhere around 500rpm.  Huge difference in splash volume and and velocity at 6 times that while driving down the highway!  The pump is a positive displacement pump, so the volume displaced is directly proportional to speed.  Any oil in excess of the amount that leaks past the bearings goes to the bypass filter, assuming you have one.

[Bryan]

1 hour ago, kencombs said:

Just remember, what you see on utube is idle speed, somewhere around 500rpm.  Huge difference in splash volume and and velocity at 6 times that while driving down the highway!  The pump is a positive displacement pump, so the volume displaced is directly proportional to speed.  Any oil in excess of the amount that leaks past the bearings goes to the bypass filter, assuming you have one.

Understand that, but how does the splash get to the valve area? Am I correct that it only has the 2 larger holes in the front and rear?

[kencombs]

22 minutes ago, Bryan said:

Understand that, but how does the splash get to the valve area? Am I correct that it only has the 2 larger holes in the front and rear?

 

those to holes are the source.  the crankcase is a solid cloud of oil droplet when running at speed.   The oil leaving be rods and mains it spun off in a fine mist that makes it's way everywhere.  that and the fairly steady stream of oil thrown into the valve chamber by the timing chain. 

since the engine is slightly lower in the back that oil makes it's way to all the valves/lifters

Edited December 8, 2021 by kencombs

[soth122003]

On 12/8/2021 at 5:10 PM, kencombs said:

The oil leaving be rods and mains it spun off in a fine mist that makes it's way everywhere.

When that oil is made into a mist (or a vapor from heat), you also have to take into effect the vacuum and pressure at the valves themselves. The action of the piston creates good pressure and vacuum, 100 psi or so. When either the exhaust or intake valve opens the pressure or vacuum from the piston acts on the valve guides as well. Vacuum will suck up a minute amount of mist on the intake and pressure on the exhaust will will also cause a minute amount of mist to go up the other valve guides adjacent to them. Even thought the valve guide clearance is about .001 thousanths, it still has room for penetration of oil mist or vapor. Plus as Kiethb has learned from rebuilding his engine you have to lube the parts prior to assembly to prevent metal to metal scoring, scratching etc..

 

Some might scoff at this, but remember I am talking Micro amounts,(less than what can be seen with the naked eye) that added up over time keeps it lubed from the time of the assembly of the engine. Which is also pertains to oil changes at intervals to keep it clean and let it do its job properly. For those over 50 think of the Brylcream commercial: A little dab a do ya.

 

Joe Lee

Edited December 10, 2021 by soth122003

[Bryan]

I did find 2 more holes at the level below the reservoirs. One is over the fuel pump cam, the other is in the rear about same distance from back as fuel pump cam is from the front. Yeah, I remember Brylcream..

[Sniper]

Remember it?

 

 

[chrysler1941]

11 hours ago, soth122003 said:

When that oil is made into a mist (or a vapor from heat), you also have to take into effect the vacuum and pressure at the valves themselves. The action of the piston creates good pressure and vacuum, 100 psi or so. When either the exhaust or intake valve opens the pressure or vacuum from the piston acts on the valve guides as well. Vacuum will suck up a minute amount of mist on the intake and pressure on the exhaust will will also cause a minute amount of mist to go up the other valve guides adjacent to them.

Correct and this why draft tube length and position is essential.

[Bryan]

That minute amount of oil must have not been enough to last sitting for 30 yrs.  Got enough stuck valves. ?

[soth122003]

You are right Bryon. After  a length of time with out exercise, everything and everyone gets stiff and caddywumpus. After i wrote my post, I was in awe at the trial and error of past engineers to create a system like that with a slide rule and vision. Look at the Space program. There is more computing power in my phone than the entirety of NASA to put a man on the moon. I don't respect the engineers of today as much as the ones from yesteryear. Today it seems like there is more emphasis on the bottom line than can it be done to the betterment of the industry and people. I think that has a lot more to do with maintaining the post as king of the hill than anything else. Innovation is slowing down in the Mechanical and increasing in the Electronics field. Almost everything developed today is throw away, yet people scream about recycling. I guess that prosperity breeds laziness.

 

Sorry my mind went on a rant and got really off topic. Back to the sticking valves oil doesn't last forever and needs to be refreshed from time to time. At least with these older mechanical marvels they can be brought back from near death vs today's cars because the parts were so interchangeable over a longer period of time. I'll end this tirade by saying innovation is good when it leads to the betterment of society. But when it doesn't .... well look at the world around you today.

 

Joe Lee

Trivia bonus: What was the most successful recycling program/project of all types materials in the world to date?

Edited December 12, 2021 by soth122003

[keithb7]

It is steel? Or oil?

[soth122003]

Hey Keith, Project/ program not type. Looking at the post I made it to ambiguous. I just now corrected it. Look for a PM.

 

Joe Lee