Carter B&B replacement

[38plymouth]

Thank you. 

[38plymouth]

So I went to my storage unit and picked up my car and brought it home yesterday. Unfortunately I don't have room for it in the garage at home so I got the storage unit and now the car sits there and I don't drive it much. A little over a year ago I rebuilt the carburetor and everything was working pretty good.

I only use ethanol free fuel in the car and I noticed on the drive home I had a terrible off idle stumble and acceleration was pretty miserable. It's one of the things I've always hated about the carburetor on it. This morning I decided to start playing around with the engine. I've always had a Miss at idle and it just never seemed to run really great.

I hooked up a timing light to each spark plug to see if I could locate what cylinder had the miss and it does not appear to be an ignition issue. I bought a new vacuum gauge and hooked it up and started setting the timing and idle mixture based on vacuum. I got the vacuum up to 19 pounds and it's pretty steady except for the occasional drop when the Miss happens. After changing the timing a bit and playing with the carburetor mixture screw the miss is mostly gone. I have not driven the car yet to see how the timing feels or if I have any detonation.

I noticed when I worked the throttle I didn't see much of a squirt from the accelerator pump. I pulled the top of the carburetor off and the accelerator pump definitely doesn't fit tight in the hole and doesn't really pump the fuel. I dug through some of my parts and found three new accelerator pumps that I have soaking in oil now. Hopefully that will help the problem. I also noticed my PCV valve didn't seem to be seating anymore so I had a constant vacuum leak at idle. For now I just plugged off the vacuum line to the PCV valve. I'm a just about to eliminate that whole thing, I did it in the hopes of getting rid of some of the stinky smell getting into the car but it seems like it's always created issues. The car has always run lean at Cruise and I have to keep the choke half-closed to get the car to run good.

I have an original Fenton aluminum head that I used to run on the car until I stripped some spark plug holes. I had that professionally repaired years ago and just never had time to put it back on. The plan this week is to put the head back on and see if I can get this carburetor situation straightened out. The car always used to run really well with the aluminum head and the dual exhaust. If I can't get it running great I think I'm going to just be ordering a new carburetor.

[Sniper]

That is the problem with leather accelerator pump plungers that sit for long periods, they dry out, get misshapen and don't work very well. 

 

Tuning is a balance between rpm, timing and mixture, you have to go back and adjust, as needed, all three till you get them all set properly. 

 

I suspect the factory equipped PCV setups had different jetting, at cruise, to account for the controlled vacuum leak that is the PCV system.  Finding jets today might be a trick though.  Some people have drilled out their stock jets to tune it but I am not sure how well that would work for your setup. 

 

https://affordablegokarts.com/pages/how-to-drill-the-main-jets

[38plymouth]

I stretched out the leather on the one that was in the car and it works so much better. The off idle stumble is now gone. I kept going back and forth with timing and idle and idle mixture screws trying to get the best vacuum. It definitely is running smoother and better but still has a little bit of a stumble sometimes. I was able to open the choke all the way and I think it is running good now. I guess I will find out when I take it out for a drive but I just don't have time for that today.

[Bryan]

After looking at this post still trying to figure out what carb I have. One place has BB 382884, bowl area says Stromberg, bottom has BXVD.

[harmony]

I too am wondering if there is a replacement carb for my car.  Since I have a fluid drive with the hydraulic transmission, (1948 Chrysler) as far as I know the only carb designed for this drivetrain is the B&B EV1.  It has the kick down switch at the back of the carb and the anti-stall switch at the front of the carb.  I'm fortunate enough to have 4 of these carbs so I can rob from Peter to pay Paul when need be and at the moment I carry one completely rebuilt in the trunk in case of emergency.

Just like the OP mentioned my throttle shafts have all worn.  I did manage to rebuild them using JB weld and the one presently on the car now works quite well with no movement in the shaft from side to side.  However I'm wondering how long that JB weld will hold up.  I actually applied it to the throttle shaft that was in worst condition so that the JB weld wouldn't be microscopically thin. 

Previously I had discovered that my accelerator pump spring was the wrong one.  Two of my carbs have a 1 3/4" spring and 2 have a 2 1/8" spring.  I had the short one in the carb that I have on the car and it should be the long one.  When I switched it I noticed a huge improvement.  Except that I noticed when I was under the hood with engine running, and I gave it some gas, it was flowing out the end of that throttle shaft.  That's when I slapped on the JB weld and all is well now. 

But when I saw this thread, I got curious and wondered if someone has designed a new carb that will bolt on so that the transmission won't know the difference? 

[allbizz49]

You can drill and bush the carb where the throttle shaft passes through. It's really a simple fix. Good luck.

[harmony]

43 minutes ago, allbizz49 said:

You can drill and bush the carb where the throttle shaft passes through. It's really a simple fix. Good luck.

Where would one get the bushings from?  I'm guessing you would take a measurement from the throttle shaft for the ID of the bushing.  Then whatever the OD of that bushing was, you'd drill out the carb body to match.  Then JB weld the bushing in place?  You'd have to be very precise in lining up the drill to be sure it was perfectly straight going through the carb body.  Otherwise the throttle plate wouldn't seat properly.  Would you shape the inside of the bushing to match the curvature of the carb body?  

Edited March 15, 2022 by harmony

[Young Ed]

I got my bushings and a reamer from McMaster. I haven't finished rebuilding the rest of the carb but the bushings went well. 

[harmony]

14 minutes ago, Young Ed said:

I got my bushings and a reamer from McMaster. I haven't finished rebuilding the rest of the carb but the bushings went well. 

Oh, ok, So you go with a reamer as opposed to drilling?  So when ordering the bushing,  do you just need to know the ID, and then cut them to length?  Any helpful tricks of the trade I'd need to know?

[Young Ed]

43 minutes ago, harmony said:

Oh, ok, So you go with a reamer as opposed to drilling?  So when ordering the bushing,  do you just need to know the ID, and then cut them to length?  Any helpful tricks of the trade I'd need to know?

Somewhere on YouTube I watched a video of a guy doing a 4bbl I think a quadrajet. The bushing goes in the drill backwards and the piece that normally is in the chuck becomes a guide. I know I ordered a couple lengths but I think I got one so no trimming was necessary.

[Young Ed]

One other thing to bring up. I left off on mine at reattaching the plate to the throttle shaft. Mark it's orientation before you remove it and order new screws with your other supplies. I didn't find the same style so I'm going to either cut the end myself to secure them or trust lock tight.

 

 

[harmony]

On mine, all the wear seemed to be on the throttle shaft, not the carb body.  Since it's brass it wore down first.  I don't have a machine lathe so I sanded the shaft after the JB weld set up by hand.  I tried to be as accurate as possible.  I can barely see any side to side movement of the shaft after I finished.   I'm wondering if there is a way of checking the carb body for the shaft holes to see if they are out of round.  I might just need a new throttle shaft.  Which no doubt isn't available.  Maybe I should give Carb Doctor a call to see if he has any available.  That's where I bought my carb rebuilt kit but they don't show a throttle shaft for the B&B EV1.  

[Art Bailey]

9 hours ago, harmony said:

On mine, all the wear seemed to be on the throttle shaft, not the carb body.  Since it's brass it wore down first.  I don't have a machine lathe so I sanded the shaft after the JB weld set up by hand.  I tried to be as accurate as possible.  I can barely see any side to side movement of the shaft after I finished.   I'm wondering if there is a way of checking the carb body for the shaft holes to see if they are out of round.  I might just need a new throttle shaft.  Which no doubt isn't available.  Maybe I should give Carb Doctor a call to see if he has any available.  That's where I bought my carb rebuilt kit but they don't show a throttle shaft for the B&B EV1.  

I used a vernier caliper to measure the hole in one of the 3 cast iron carb bases I have. The hole for the .310 shaft is as much as .320, and generally worn oval shaped, which adds up to lots of slop. I'm about to put in some oilite bushings, just waiting for the reamer, and drills to arrive. I'll do a write up after I'm done, assuming I don't make a mess out of it. I have at least one decent throttle shaft that has very little wear. 

[harmony]

Does anyone know what the difference between the shaft and the carb body (or bushing) opening should be?

I watched a few videos on it. (but not for the carter B&B) One guy says it calls for .010 difference.  But that sounds like an awful lot to me. 

[Art Bailey]

42 minutes ago, harmony said:

Does anyone know what the difference between the shaft and the carb body (or bushing) opening should be?

I watched a few videos on it. (but not for the carter B&B) One guy says it calls for .010 difference.  But that sounds like an awful lot to me. 

I'm not a machinist, nor do I play one on TV. But from what I've read, it should be what's known as a slip fit. Measure the shaft, add .0005 to .001, and that's what the hole should measure for a slip fit. Real machinists, feel free to correct me. I don't have the capabilities in my shop to make a super precise hole, so I'm gonna hope I get in the ball park, and ream it larger if necessary. The wear on my carb is already about .010 difference, which is super sloppy---when I squirt water at the shaft with the engine running, it sounds like a kid drinking a soda through a straw.

 

I have a feeling that this is one of those jobs where we're not building a space shuttle---good enough will be good enough.

Edited March 15, 2022 by ratbailey

[harmony]

5 minutes ago, ratbailey said:

I'm not a machinist, nor do I play one on TV. But from what I've read, it should be what's known as a slip fit. Measure the shaft, add .0005 to .001, and that's what the hole should measure for a slip fit. Real machinists, feel free to correct me. I don't have the capabilities in my shop to make a super precise hole, so I'm gonna hope I get in the ball park, and ream it larger if necessary. The wear on my carb is already about .010 difference, which is super sloppy---when I squirt water at the shaft with the engine running, it sounds like a kid drinking a soda through a straw.

 

I have a feeling that this is one of those jobs where we're not building a space shuttle---good enough will be good enough.

Yeah, slip fit is my take on it too.  Just enough for the shaft to turn without binding.  

[Sniper]

Just remember as the base heats up the hole will get bigger.  Loose cold will be even looser hot.

[Art Bailey]

26 minutes ago, Sniper said:

Just remember as the base heats up the hole will get bigger.  Loose cold will be even looser hot.

Good point, hadn't thought of that! Might be a good idea to fit it up tighter than I would think it should be, and try it out on the car. Fitting bushings to a shaft is a tricky business, the ones in my genny and starter drove me crazy. My big anxiety is accidently relocating the center of the shaft, since I'm now drilling into a weirdly shaped hole. I plan to secure the base to a precision angle block, and tie that down to my drill press table, locating center as best I can by chucking up a 5/8" drill, and making sure it passes through the two existing holes. There's no machined surfaces to reference off of on the base to get it square on the x axis, though (think I said that right). Again, not sure it's something to freak out about. I have three opportunities to find out. 

[Young Ed]

32 minutes ago, ratbailey said:

Good point, hadn't thought of that! Might be a good idea to fit it up tighter than I would think it should be, and try it out on the car. Fitting bushings to a shaft is a tricky business, the ones in my genny and starter drove me crazy. My big anxiety is accidently relocating the center of the shaft, since I'm now drilling into a weirdly shaped hole. I plan to secure the base to a precision angle block, and tie that down to my drill press table, locating center as best I can by chucking up a 5/8" drill, and making sure it passes through the two existing holes. There's no machined surfaces to reference off of on the base to get it square on the x axis, though (think I said that right). Again, not sure it's something to freak out about. I have three opportunities to find out. 

The video has you using the reamer backwards with the normally chucked end acting as a guide through the existing hole. Then you put a new bushing in that end and do the other side. So they should always end up aligned. This thread got me to dig my project carb out. I discovered the bushings I ordered for my test base are too long for my actual base. The test base has a broken throttle stop so I can't just use it instead. Looks like I'm stuck until I get shorter ones in unless someone has an easy way to cut them down. 

 

[Art Bailey]

3 hours ago, Young Ed said:

The video has you using the reamer backwards with the normally chucked end acting as a guide through the existing hole. Then you put a new bushing in that end and do the other side. So they should always end up aligned. This thread got me to dig my project carb out. I discovered the bushings I ordered for my test base are too long for my actual base. The test base has a broken throttle stop so I can't just use it instead. Looks like I'm stuck until I get shorter ones in unless someone has an easy way to cut them down. 

 

Ha...my test base has a broken throttle stop, too. What jackalope is going around snapping off all these throttle stops?!

 

I saw that video. I'd have to watch it again, but here's what doesn't make sense--if I want to ream the existing hole bigger, how am I going to get a larger reamer into the smaller hole? Also, how am I going to depend on a hole that isn't anywhere close to round to guide a cutting tool accurately? I'm hoping that my idea will produce a tolerable result. And finally, I'm going to be removing a good amount of material. I believe I have no choice but to drill, not use a reamer.

 

The bushings I ordered are a standard length, slightly too long. I was just gonna cut 'em somehow. Dremel with a cut off wheel, go at it slowly? Press them in, cut with the cutoff wheel as close to the body as you dare, then file? I also planned to shape them with a round chainsaw file to fit the throat of the carb. I hacked away at the Oilite bushings with a triangular file to score and break the ones that had to come out of my gen and starter, they filed nicely. 

 

Edit: Totally forgot that I filed a nice round slot in one bushing for the oil wick in the generator, with a round file, no problem.

Edited March 16, 2022 by ratbailey

[James_Douglas]

I think, but I am not sure, that Jon at The Carburetor shop may have oversize shafts for the Carter BB. God knows he has piles and piles of parts. Of course you cannot get a hard part out of him unless you buy a rebuild kit.

 

Even with perfect throttle shafts I still had issues with my BB carbs. These were carefully rebuilt by myself.

 

The issue is that the emulsion tubes wear. You need a special tool to get them out and place new ones in. In my case I got lucky, and $300 lighter, in that I found a NOS carburetor. I took it apart and put in all new gaskets and the car has idled perfect for 15 years.

 

The leaded gas tends to erode the emulsion tubes. This carb has never seen lead.

 

The other thing to watch out for is the piston on the high speed jet. The water vapor that gets created with the alcohol in the gas...it tends to get sucked around that power piston for that jet. See my old posts on the subject.  The die-cast zinc starts to react to the water in that little bore and the piston hangs up. If it hangs open you get a rich condition. If it hangs closed you can burn up the head of a piston from a lean condition. Again, read my old posts on this.

 

As to busing. Get a 3 flute drill bit from mcmaster carr and a reamer for the size shaft. Then line drill it and press in the bushings. Then line ream the bushing and you are done.

 

James

 

 

[Art Bailey]

6 hours ago, James_Douglas said:

I think, but I am not sure, that Jon at The Carburetor shop may have oversize shafts for the Carter BB. God knows he has piles and piles of parts. Of course you cannot get a hard part out of him unless you buy a rebuild kit.

 

Even with perfect throttle shafts I still had issues with my BB carbs. These were carefully rebuilt by myself.

 

The issue is that the emulsion tubes wear. You need a special tool to get them out and place new ones in. In my case I got lucky, and $300 lighter, in that I found a NOS carburetor. I took it apart and put in all new gaskets and the car has idled perfect for 15 years.

 

The leaded gas tends to erode the emulsion tubes. This carb has never seen lead.

 

The other thing to watch out for is the piston on the high speed jet. The water vapor that gets created with the alcohol in the gas...it tends to get sucked around that power piston for that jet. See my old posts on the subject.  The die-cast zinc starts to react to the water in that little bore and the piston hangs up. If it hangs open you get a rich condition. If it hangs closed you can burn up the head of a piston from a lean condition. Again, read my old posts on this.

 

As to busing. Get a 3 flute drill bit from mcmaster carr and a reamer for the size shaft. Then line drill it and press in the bushings. Then line ream the bushing and you are done.

 

James

 

 

Hi James, 

 

Thanks for the insights and great advice! I've noticed that my step-up piston gets hung up at the bottom when you push on it...I filed that info away mentally knowing it could become a problem when I actually get on the road, but now I know that it definitely needs to be dealt with before that. 

 

Is the emulsion tube another name for the main vent tube? I've wondered about that, too, since they're supposed to be changed, but most often are not. 

[thebelvedereman]

I've used langdon's Weber on a few of my cars, love them, but I recently came across Daytona carburetors, they have a replacement one barrel that basically bolts right on and uses the same linkage and everything, and they're supposed to be very good quality carburetors, it also has an adjustable main jet I contacted them and priced it out, and it's $299 which isn't great, but it's not that bad either, think I might give them a shot next time I need a carb , https://daytonaparts.com/universal-replacement-carburetor.html

[Art Bailey]

I've been doing some half serious research on the Carter YF or YFA. They had a long run, and seem to be pretty cheap and plentiful, and I read that they'll fit on our manifolds. I've got the M6 trans, so I need the anti stall and kick down. Hopefully I'm not misunderstanding this, but the anti stall is just a dashpot, which the YF or YFA has. From what I'm reading, the YF or YFA has an "anti dithering valve," which gets a signal from the car's computer to adjust the mixture. I'm thinking that with some tinkering, maybe that could stand in for the kickdown? 

 

I'm making one last attempt at getting this #$%^ B+B to work on my car in a dependable way, then I'm going to have at this half-baked idea.