1933 plymouth vacuum test - head removal

[Crazyred]

@TodFitch I always wondered what those frankenstein hoses were for.  So the small hose should route to a heater but since one is not installed on the car they can be eliminated?  On my to do list I plan to flush the cooling system, so that would be a good time to block those off. 

 

Thanks for letting me know about that!

[chrysler1941]

9 hours ago, Crazyred said:

@TodFitch I always wondered what those frankenstein hoses were for.  So the small hose should route to a heater but since one is not installed on the car they can be eliminated?  On my to do list I plan to flush the cooling system, so that would be a good time to block those off. 

 

Thanks for letting me know about that!

If you want to flush, do a reverse flush. This shows radiator flushing.

Engine block, flush through rear outlet for heater. Remove thermostat

Edited July 16, 2021 by chrysler1941

[TodFitch]

3 hours ago, Crazyred said:

@TodFitch I always wondered what those frankenstein hoses were for.  So the small hose should route to a heater but since one is not installed on the car they can be eliminated?  On my to do list I plan to flush the cooling system, so that would be a good time to block those off. 

 

Thanks for letting me know about that!

Yes, the spliced in fitting on the lower radiator hose is for a return from a heater for cars before the bypass style thermostat housing (or on lower trim business models that didn’t have the bypass thermostat after that was introduced). The fitting on the top of the bypass thermostat is for the return from the heater on later/higher trim cars. You certainly don’t need both. Having the two returns hooked together might not be a problem but definitely looks strange.

Source to the heater should be on a tapped hole on the back of the head. In the early days some mechanics used an adaptor to pull water out of the temperature sensing bulb hole on the driver side of the head if they were afraid to drill and tap the head.

 

I would replace the lower hose with a new one without the splice in it. The inlet on the pump can be closed off with a threaded plug.

[Crazyred]

Over the past couple of weeks, I was able to complete a cylinder leak down test and then check the valve tappet gaps. This was the first time I have done this for both tests.  The procedure I used to find TDC, was to start on the #1 tdc mark on the crank pulley and verify the rotor was pointing to the correct plug.  Then I checked that the tappets were free and loose, made my checks and then rotated to the next cylinder in the firing order.  If this is not the correct method please advise.

 

First I performed the leak test on a up to temp engine and found that all cylinders have some ring leakage.  I was expecting that since I am unsure of when the engine was last rebuilt.  I did find that the #2 and #4 exhaust valves have some leakage.  I also was able to hear that I have some sticky valves.  I determined this when the pressure entered in the cylinder I could hear leakage in the manifolds and then as the pressure built to max, I could hear the valves begin to seal off and close and the leakage stopped.  All cylinders were between a 5 - 10 pound leakage difference from the supplied pressure.

 

I then checked the valve tappet clearance and found the following. When I checked this, the engine was cold but it still provided useful info I believe.  After checking this cold and the contortions I had to do to see the areas, I would not want to do this on a running or hot engine.  

 

Cold Engine Results:

cylinder     exhaust     intake

#1                12              7

#2               13.5           7

#3               15.5           14.5

#4               15              8

#5               13              9

#6               7.5             8

 

According to the service manuals I have, a hot clearance should be, intake .006" and exhaust .008".  For sustained high speed driving or heavy duty service add .001" to .002" to the exhaust valves.

 

Here's my novice take on the findings.  The #2 and #4 exhaust valves are not closing, possible carbon or rust build up.  I believe that the valves on #3 are the sticky valves as this is what I heard during the leakage test.  During the clearance test with no pressure they are sticking at nearly the same height.  With the exception of the #3 intake valve, the other cylinder intake valve gaps seem to be close to the proper clearance.  Now as for the exhaust valves, adjustments are definitely needed to correct these.  When I bought the car it had been sitting for over 5 years and not run at all.  Would this cause the valves to stick open?  Based on my readings it could.  Since I have had the car, I have put less than 60 miles on it with my test drives, etc.  I have now filled the fuel tank and added Marvels Mystery oil to it after these tests.  I hope this will assist in freeing the valves.  Also, my tappets have two nuts and then the tappet flat sides to adjust.  What is the procedure for adjusting this type tappet?

 

With the above findings, should I adjust the valves or drive it more and try to free up the valves with additives or all of the above?  If adjusting is needed, I will do it cold, what should I set the clearances too?

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Crazyred]

This weekend I am going to attempt to adjust the valve tappet clearance.  I will set them cold and add .002 as I have read that others have had good success with this setting.  Afterwards I can get it to temp and check them.  

 

As for the tappet itself, I wanted to confirm the 3 wrench areas before I just start twisting things.  On the picture the yellow arrow would be the area to hold the tappet from spinning?  Is the blue arrow pointing to a locking screw?  Would the red arrow be the adjusting screw to adjust the gap? 

 

[TodFitch]

1 hour ago, Crazyred said:

As for the tappet itself, I wanted to confirm the 3 wrench areas before I just start twisting things.  On the picture the yellow arrow would be the area to hold the tappet from spinning?  Is the blue arrow pointing to a locking screw?  Would the red arrow be the adjusting screw to adjust the gap? 

Thats how I remember it.

[wagoneer]

@Crazyred  Your compression numbers are pretty good, so probably some carbon build up on the cylinders heads or valves, or valve seats. You may just want to leave her be, but if you want to go a little deeper, then taking the head off is the next logical step.  Have you checked the plugs, if they are fouled, or whether the wires are still good?  If you can isolate which cylinder is misfiring, then when you want to go deeper, you can focus on that one. 

 

As I have discovered recently, It's simpler and easier than you would think to take the head off, and clean the carbon off , and loosen up any valves, plus it's a whole lot of interesting fun to go one level deeper. I used a combination of brake fluid and PBBlaster soaking in the valves to loosen them up (with a light mallet tapping the sticking ones as I hand-rotated the engine). I keep the cylinders and head sprayed down in wd-40 to keep the rust at bay. A new head gasket wouldn't hurt either.

Edited August 5, 2021 by wagoneer

[Crazyred]

@TodFitch thanks for the clarification.

 

@wagoneer thanks for the feedback.  It's good to know that removing the head is not as overwhelming that I imagine it in my head.  I do not think I will go that route just yet but if things do not improve, I agree that would be the next thing to do.

[Crazyred]

Well after several months and reading and watching @keithb7 videos, I figured I would take the plunge and remove the head to see what lies beneath.  The disassembly went easier than I imagined and learned and discovered things as I went. 

 

First I found that the engine has no thermostat installed.  The temp usually hovered around 140 when driving and in the summer heat in stop and go traffic, would rise to around 180.  This explains why it ran cooler than with a thermostat installed.  I plan on installing one when I reassemble it.  I do have a couple of questions, this engine is a 1934 - 201 and this year Plymouth started using the thermostat with the recirculating feature before it opened fully.  Since the water pump has the plumbing for this I thought about buying a thermo housing and thermostat to get it functioning again.  Does anyone know of a reason not to use this system?

 

Also found, was this engine has pistons that are marked .060 over. (what would this make the engine size now?)

 

I suspected the engine had been rebuilt but this confirms it.  I have read boring an engine to .060 and larger can lead to engine cooling problems by creating excessive heat due to the larger boring and less metal material.  Could this be why the thermo was not in place?  I was thinking of installing a 160 degree in case this is true.

 

Once I removed the head I noticed the build up in the combustion area.  It was extremely black and the plugs were shot as well.  I assume this is from running rich and or  timing being incorrect. 

 

 

 

I cleaned the top of the block carefully to remove all that I could.   Two center cylinders have not been cleaned.

 

 

Bought a valve removal tool that is very handy and made the valve removal easy.

 

Doing each cylinder at a time I removed each valve, cleaned all carbon deposits and then lapped the valves.  I found 3 or 4 that were sealing or partially sealing, all others were not sealing well.

 

This is the exhaust on the #1 cylinder

 

 

After lapping all the valves (a first for me) they all cleaned up well and passed the gasoline leak test.  At this point I assume they are better off than when I started.

 

 

 

 

I do need to replace the two lower exhaust manifold studs as they are badly rusted.  The nuts I removed on all studs are brass and 1 of them was stripped out, being a soft metal and over torqued. Any reason to go back with the brass type or I guess why were they used to begin with?

 

Also flushed the radiator and block as suggested in previous posts and the fluid was surprising very clean. 

 

I appreciate any and all suggestions!

 

[Sniper]

Brass nuts will not rust to the studs causing them to break, they are very common keep them. 

 

I seriously doubt .060 over will cause a hot running issue, it's really an old wives tale.

 

Good ob ont eh valvve lapping.

 

Might want to go thru that carb, verify jetting and the choke is fully opening.

[keithb7]

@Crazyredyou made my day! I am so glad to hear my videos are giving people confidence to do the work themselves on these old Mopars.  That's the main reason I put in the time to make the videos. You made great work of the valve lap job. Sounds like it needed it bad. Look at them shop towels doing a great job in the valve area! ?

 

The 0.060 over engine bore now makes it a 209.14 ci engine.

 

There are a few reasons why you may have what appears to be lots of carbon build up. Leaky valves may contribute to incomplete inefficient combustion. Dirty by-products are left behind and you found them. Your engine will thank you and run better now.  Now that the head is off how does the top of the cylinder feel, any ridge? How about cylinder wall scoring, any present? I think higher combustion pressures make more heat.  How much I can't say.

 

.060 over on the cylinders with the same size combustion chamber in the head, you are definitely getting a little more air into the cylinders, then compressed by the rising piston. This year is my 3rd summer with my 1938 Plymouth. Previous 2 summers it had a 228 ci engine. Cooling system was able to keep up on hot days, climbing the hill home. I rebuilt the engine last winter. I had it bored over to 237 ci. This year I have a spotless block, higher HP and torque. Now the cooling system cannot keep up on hot days. I have no records or proof that my engine is now generating more heat, only seat-of-the pants experience.

Edited August 18, 2022 by keithb7

[Crazyred]

@Sniper that makes sense on the nuts, I will track down a couple that i need to replace then.  How would I know if the correct jet is in place for the BBR-1 439S carb that I have?  When I reassemble I will double check the manual choke adjustments.

 

@keithb7 to my novice eyes, inside the cylinders, there is no ridge at the top that i can feel and I can not see any scoring from the top.  When I had the oil pan off before I did not see any scoring from the bottom either.  Thanks for telling me the new engine size i didnt know how to figure that one out. 

 

As for the cooling system, I will make reassemble it as designed and see what happens.  If it begins to run hot (in Houston everything has been hot lately) I will adjust as needed.  I will try to locate at original housing with the by pass (anyone here selling one?), if not then I will have to buy a reproduction.

 

Question on finding a new head gasket.  The one I removed was a victor 886 double sided copper.  Victor is no longer made but found some victors and others on ebay. 

https://www.ebay.com/itm/234405352938?hash=item3693a5d5ea:g:KcwAAOSwYTtiIlzg&amdata=enc%3AAQAHAAAA4ITmyCj%2B4ZpaNRIyhUFtem2e8YfsApGjCDivh44LPq%2FLbgR7%2FKFl5OvighXZiScG5qC6JetRFzILu62ztXtVaYWK8wQoXpvC6cy02tZ3WqnFTMCx1oXeFaQU4578w04m9yn0%2F788g5j4hgkrej%2FGgmgiPwAoPQctKT0lk%2BMFOAbNyeFYlqDLjrS152z%2FEFNnT7OR9zdeN9GWM5fPwP6gYjDhpUX7y0K6yrilbBu9lYenUgAPas1B3A8uDWm0gsrRFgL3CXxZQcbh7B5ZILWgjvN93Gteh68xPdpdnma%2FW9j4|tkp%3ABFBMkMLSs9dg

 

I have purchased from ebay before but I am hesitant to purchase a head gasket from ebay.  Has anyone bought a head gasket from ebay with success?  The 1933 and 34 are not the same as the 35 and later, since one hole is offset on the later models.  With this my options are limited since these were made just for the two years, maybe?

 

Now why I'm looking for parts, I will check to make sure the engine timing is set correctly with the timing marks on the crank pulley.

[kencombs]

On the eBay question, I buy lots of stuff there.  Hard parts, gaskets, seals, paints, etc.  Never an issue.  But, for the most part I buy brands that I know.  That said, I've also used parts that were Eastern in origin and critical pieces, like a turbo, with good results.  

 

It's my belief that one is less likely to get a fake there than on Amazon, which is loaded with them.  And eBay's buyer protection is solid, if needed.

[Sniper]

1 hour ago, Crazyred said:

that makes sense on the nuts, I will track down a couple that i need to replace then.  How would I know if the correct jet is in place for the BBR-1 439S carb that I have?  When I reassemble I will double check the manual choke adjustments.

 

My service manual tells me what jets I should have, at least the Carter part number.

 

Here's an online list, you will need your specific carb model number.  No guarantee on accuracy

 

https://www.carburetor-blog.com/knowledge-base/bb-jets/