Introduction and a question

[Kristina]

Hello! My name is Kristina. I’ve been lurking here a bit and finally decided to jump in and ask a question or two. My dad and I have been restoring a 1953 Plymouth Cambridge together for fun, but neither of us are what you’d call a car person. I’m pretty mechanically inclined (I’ve spent the majority of my career fixing computers), and good at problem-solving though so we’ve been making progress. Slow progress, but progress. I’ve spent a lot of time researching answers to our questions, and this forum has ended up helping a lot.  However, now we’ve run up against a problem that requires more than I can just Google. 
 

well, two problems, really, and I think they’re connected. We cannot get the clutch to engage and we can’t bleed the front brakes. The backs are fine. The reason I believe these two issues are connected is that we had to remove the floor panel and replace the master cylinder. Now because the back brakes bleed and engage, we know that it’s not the cylinder itself but rather a mistake we made while reassembling the whole area (especially the clutch, bc we tested that before replacing the cylinder and the car went into gear and the wheels spun.).  I *think* that the problem with the clutch is improper adjustment of the push rod that engages the transmission when the clutch is pressed, but I’m really not sure. I have a manual from the 1930s-40s, but obviously it’s the wrong decade. We ordered the correct one today. We also had to remove...I’m sorry, I don’t know what it’s called, I’m pretty bad with correct terminology...anyway, we had to remove the drivers side metal brake line that runs from this little connector/splitter thing and up to the drivers side front brake and reinstall it in order to replace the rubber hose that connects it to the brake itself. We managed to twist off the end of the metal tube in the course of removing the old cylinders, but we repaired it with the proper equipment. I don’t think it’s this though because both front brakes are the problem, not just that one. All of the shoes and cylinders were replaced with new ones as well.  
 

I'm not sure what other info or pictures would be relevant but I can get them if requested. So do you guys have any ideas? Especially ones that don’t involve taking off the foot well panel and the brake/gas/clutch assembly again because MAN was that a pain in the rear to get back on. Thanks for any help you can provide! 

[maddmaxx1949]

Hello and welcome to the forum. Hopefully we can get your questions answered here, this place is a wealth of knowledge. I would be surprised if the two problems were related, not two familiar with the Cambridge but I'd say those are generally two independent systems. Not sure what condition the splitter is in but if you twisted off a line, there could be some gunk or rust that is plugging it up. Based on the diagram in my parts book, you can diagnose this one line at a time. Disconnect the line coming from the master cylinder at the tee/splitter and see if you get good flow. Then connect to the splitter and do each line running from the splitter to the brakes individually. If nothing comes out then you know its the splitter (assuming your lines are clear). You can disconnect the lines and try blowing them and the splitter out with some compressed air to make sure or replace it with a new one. which if it looks to be in not so great shape, I would do. Brakes are arguably the most important system on the car and you don't want to skimp out with reused parts. and the tees/splitters have a reputation for corrosion and leaks. Hope that all makes sense. Also make sure you are bleeding in the right order. Right rear -> Left rear -> Right front -> left front. For the front wheels, lower cylinder then upper cylinder.

[maddmaxx1949]

For the clutch you should be able to look under there and see the clutch fork engaging while someone is pressing the pedal. I'm not sure if you mean that the clutch disc is always in contact with the flywheel (wheels spinning, in gear, cant roll the car) or if its always out (wheels not spinning, like neutral, car can roll). If it's the former, sometimes if they have been sitting a while the disc will seize to the flywheel and won't release with the clutch pedal depressed. If it's the latter, I would double check the linkage and get a visual on the clutch fork and throwout bearing when someone is depressing the pedal to see if its pushing far enough. Hope that gets you started, someone with more experience than myself hopefully will chime in as well.

 

 

Edited April 2, 2021 by maddmaxx1949
added link for clutch adjustment

[Kristina]

37 minutes ago, maddmaxx1949 said:

For the clutch you should be able to look under there and see the clutch fork engaging while someone is pressing the pedal. I'm not sure if you mean that the clutch disc is always in contact with the flywheel (wheels spinning, in gear, cant roll the car) or if its always out (wheels not spinning, like neutral, car can roll). If it's the former, sometimes if they have been sitting a while the disc will seize to the flywheel and won't release with the clutch pedal depressed. If it's the latter, I would double check the linkage and get a visual on the clutch fork and throwout bearing when someone is depressing the pedal to see if its pushing far enough. Hope that gets you started, someone with more experience than myself hopefully will chime in as well.

 

 

 

Hey Maddmaxx, thanks for your input.   The only reason I think the problems are related is because both parts have to be removed to replace the master cylinder, and I think we did something wrong when we reinstalled it BC it worked before we replaced it.  It is the second situation you've describe - car is in neutral and the wheels don't spin, but we can move the fronts by hand (not the backs, but that's why we were trying to put the car in gear to begin with.  We were trying to see if it was just us not being able to apply enough force by hand to move them against the new brake shoes or if something else was wrong.  Despite adjusting them all the way down, it was still a tight fit to get the drums back on.).  So I think that you're right, and you have given me a direction to look.  To be honest, I've been reading the clutch section on the older manual that we have, but I don't understand it very well.  The brakes I understand, something about that system just makes sense to me, but I don't know enough about the clutch and related systems to really just get what might be wrong there.  Sorry again about my misuse of terms - there are a lot of parts on the car that I know visually and understand what they do but don't know what they're actually called.  Also thank you for the input about the splitter - that's one of the things I was suspecting for the brake problem, so I will go that direction next.  

 

Funny thing, I didn't know there was an order you should bleed them, but we ended up doing it in the order you describe anyway, lol (Except the bottom fronts - they don't have a bleed valve.).  

[Sniper]

Welcome Kristina.

 

Since both the clutch and brake pedal share a pivot point I'd be looking around there to see if maybe something is keeping both pedals from fully depressing.

[Doug&Deb]

All of the wheel cylinders should have bleeders. Did you bleed the master cylinder first? Bleeding the brakes can be finicky because of the master cylinder being below the wheel cylinders. I highly recommend replacing all of the lines both metal and rubber. Nickel copper line is easy to work with and lasts a long time. If you twisted the end off a line I’d suspect all of them. Remember it’s a single reservoir master. Any leak and you lose brakes.

[greg g]

One of the critical items that most people miss is there needs to be about 1 1/2 inch of free pay at the top of the brake pedal's stroke.  If you don't have that then the fluid can not release pressure when you release the brakes.  This can be adjusted by tweaking the linkage rod between the pedal and the MC.  You also don't want the reservoir filled to the top also.  Another thing to check is that the vent in the cap is clear, and with the cap off get a good light and look in the bottom of the fluid chamber.  You should be able to see two holes.  The larger one is the feed for the piston chamber it's about the size a pencil lead.  The smaller hole is the relief hole that allows fluid to return to the reservoir.  Get a piece of mechanics wire or a straightend out paperclip and root around in both of the to make sure they re free of debris.  

 

 

Take a look in the resources for the article on brakes especially where it applies to adjustment.  If the brakes aren't properly adjusted,you won't get a good bleeding procedure.  And finally the shop manual details which way the front cylinders need to be done.  I can't remember if it top first or bottom first but. That is important too.

 

And my father taught me to tape a piece of scrap wood to the bottom of the brake pedal so the it doesn't go past the end of it's working stroke as that can put cuts and groves in to the rubber seal hastening it's demise.

 

Go slow be methodically, you will get it.

 

[Kristina]

Maddmax - You were on the money about the clutch.  We tightened it down a bit and it engaged, no problem.  We detached the line from the master cylinder to the splitter and used an air compressor to see if we felt anything at the bleed valves (we took the stems totally out so we wouldn't damage them), and nada.  My dad thinks its because there's simply too much for the air to force its way through - eg, the cylinders - but I think it's because there's a leak or a blockage.  Regardless, I think you're right about the splitter itself, it was just too much of a project for us to get into last night because everything is, well...you know.  Stuck, lol.  We don't want to damage any of that metal tubing bc it's all in good condition - no rust or decay - and replacing it all would be, ah...a *task*, lol.  So if you have any advice for unsticking it all (aside from the prodigious application of WD-40.) without damaging it, it would be very welcome.  

 

Sniper - See, that's along the lines I was thinking, but we checked the assembly and as far as we can tell, nothing is in the way.  He watched under the car while I depressed both pedals over and over again.  We adjusted the clutch and it works now, and the back brakes bleed, so I think it's probably not a blockage of that kind.  

 

Doug&Deb - You're absolutely right, they all did.  I'd asked him that before (he's the one who does bleed valves while I depress the pedal), but he'd said there wasn't a second one because of the tube that connects them internally, but I thought I'd seen bleed valves on all of them when we installed them.  He was the one under there though so I took him at his word.  But you are correct, there are bleed valves on all of them.  See, toldja we are learning as we go.  To the other part of your suggestion - how does one bleed the master cylinder? I saw some diagrams of the inner workings and watched a few youtube videos so I could understand how it functions, but I never saw any mention of that.  Re: the lines.  We managed to twist one off because the rubber tubing attached to both the metal tube and the cylinder was so stuck that we couldn't get it off.  Even after it was out of the car we needed a vize to even begin to get the piece of tube free (to bring it to the store and get a match.).  but the rest of the metal lines look to be in good condition without rust or corrosion, and the one remaining rubber tube is still flexible and does not have any leaks or cracks.  So unless it breaks....convincing my dad that we need to take all that out and replace it is not gonna be something I can do.  x.x  

 

Greg g - Aaaahhh I didn't know any of that so we'll try that all the next time we're out there.  I think you might be right because despite the fact that the backs would spin before and after we bled them now they won't.  We tested it again yesterday after we got the clutch working again thinking that maybe we just couldn't apply enough force against the new brake shoes but no, they don't spin.  If the cylinder is too full or we don't have the room at the top of the stroke that would explain why the brakes might be having problems disengaging.  I will check the other thing you mentioned, but we bought a brand new master cylinder instead of rebuilding the old one so I think it probably doesn't have any debris in there.  We don't have the shop manual yet, but when it gets here (it's been shipped; we ordered it yesterday.), I will be reading that section.  The brake adjustment is, well...the drums wouldn't even fit back on until we adjusted them all the way down so I'm not sure how much more we can really change them.  Thanks for the help, I'll let you know how it goes.   

[maddmaxx1949]

1 hour ago, Kristina said:

So if you have any advice for unsticking it all (aside from the prodigious application of WD-40.) without damaging it, it would be very welcome.  

PB blaster and some good line wrenches is what I do for lines. Crusty ones take patience. Some things you can't rush if you don't want to break them.

[knuckleharley]

On 4/2/2021 at 2:16 PM, Kristina said:

 

Hey Maddmaxx, thanks for your input.   The only reason I think the problems are related is because both parts have to be removed to replace the master cylinder, and I think we did something wrong when we reinstalled it BC it worked before we replaced it.  It is the second situation you've describe - car is in neutral and the wheels don't spin, but we can move the fronts by hand (not the backs, but that's why we were trying to put the car in gear to begin with.  We were trying to see if it was just us not being able to apply enough force by hand to move them against the new brake shoes or if something else was wrong.  Despite adjusting them all the way down, it was still a tight fit to get the drums back on.).  So I think that you're right, and you have given me a direction to look.  To be honest, I've been reading the clutch section on the older manual that we have, but I don't understand it very well.  The brakes I understand, something about that system just makes sense to me, but I don't know enough about the clutch and related systems to really just get what might be wrong there.  Sorry again about my misuse of terms - there are a lot of parts on the car that I know visually and understand what they do but don't know what they're actually called.  Also thank you for the input about the splitter - that's one of the things I was suspecting for the brake problem, so I will go that direction next.  

 

Funny thing, I didn't know there was an order you should bleed them, but we ended up doing it in the order you describe anyway, lol (Except the bottom fronts - they don't have a bleed valve.).  

Do yourself an immense favor by buying a copy of "Motors Manual" that covers 1953 Model cars. Not only do they have mucho photos of what you need to do,they explain the process in layman's terms so you can understand it.

 

26th Edition -- 1953 - 1963 Hardcover – January 1, 1963

 

As you can see,each edition covers 10 years,so you can buy one that covers earlier models that will still over your 1953. LOTS of used ones out there in good condition,and if you look around,you can find a real bargain. Still,it is a bargain if you have to pay 100 bucks for you. The time,money,and most of all,the frustration it will save you is beyond price.

 

BTW,do yourself a favor and go ahead and replace ALL the brake lines with the new copper-nickel brake lines (they don't rust inside or outside),and replace ALL the brake hoses with brand new ones. Brakes,steering,and suspension are places where you do NOT want to cut corners.

Edited April 3, 2021 by knuckleharley

[T120]

When bleeding brakes, I still do it simply as I did it it my youth, I have another person help...My wife has the routine down pat. lol   

[maddmaxx1949]

Just now, T120 said:

When bleeding brakes, I still do it simply as I did it it my youth, I have another person help...My wife has the routine down pat. lol   

Dad and I still do it occasionally  "Down.....up.......down.......up........down.................up." Never had one of those fancy self bleeder things.

[James_Douglas]

Kristina, Welcome to is motley crew of old car people. I started to work on cars in high school and it has been a life long journey not just in understanding how mechanical things work, but also the history of Industrial Revolution and the history of much of America for the last 100 years. If you embrace this hobby it can take you to many places and some of them to places you never thought it could.

 

I would encourage you to spend some serious time over at the Chrysler Imperial Club Website.  They have posted for all to see the Master Technician Service Conference booklets as well as the Master Technician Service Conference Films. Although calling them films is a stretch as they are basically slides with an audio track.

 

You can see them here: http://www.imperialclub.com/Repair/Lit/Master/index.htm  and here:  http://www.imperialclub.com/Repair/Lit/Films/index.htm

 

If you read over and look over the sections that apply to what you are working on, it will show you everything you need to know. These resources coupled with a Master Parts book and a Service Manual for your specific year and there is nothing you cannot fix.

 

Good luck on you new interest.

 

Best, James