51 B3B build thread - after all these years

[bkahler]

On 9/23/2020 at 11:49 AM, ggdad1951 said:

yah that pin should have some heat treat to it or you will have wear issues.  what about shoulder bolts?

 

https://www.fullerfasteners.com/products/imperial-shoulder-bolt/

 

I think shoulder bolts will likely be closer to if not spot on .250".  The shank needs to be .244".  I measured a couple of 1/4" bolts and the shank was .247" so I'm hoping that a SHCS will be closer in size.  I think they would also be easier to polish to size if needed.   I'm going to try and source a couple this weekend to play with.

 

 

[bkahler]

On 9/23/2020 at 12:12 PM, Jeff Balazs said:

Brad;

As far as steering adjustments go you should expect to have to adjust it after a bit of a break in period. It is no big deal. I have put at least 25K miles on mine and I typically adjust it about every year and a half. Very small adjustments. I did not have to rebuild my steering gearbox. But I do keep it topped up with Mobil 1 synthetic axle grease instead of "lighter" grease. No leaks and it works just fine. One thing that definitely makes a difference on the steering with these trucks is keeping the tire pressure correct for the tires you are using.

 

I was wondering since you're using yours as a daily driver whether or not you noticed any changes as the miles go by.  

 

On the adjustment I purposely left it on the slightly loose side instead of the slightly tight side.  Due to the star washer I couldn't put it in the spot I would have preferred.  I figure once it's on the road things will move around a bit and I would need to tighten up the steering a bit.  Unless plans change this truck won't be a daily driver, especially since Kentucky salts the roads in the winter.  

 

On 9/23/2020 at 12:12 PM, Jeff Balazs said:

FWIW I know a lot of folks like the look of the mechanical fuel pumps on these trucks. Personally I think they are a potential problem waiting to happen. One of two things can happen when they do fail. The least significant is you can stall in traffic. The bigger problem that can rear it's ugly head is if the pump leaks internally and dilutes the oil in the crankcase. And I might add that usually when this happens the engine still gets enough fuel to continue running. I blanked my mount off and run a full time electric fuel pump to eliminate this from happening.

If one was concerned about the looks of this one could go ahead and mount a pump and dummy up the fuel lines......

 

Jeff

 

For the time being I will be running both an electric pump and the mechanical pump in series.  The electric pump is right next the the fuel tank outlet.  Mechanical pumps and modern fuels don't play well together especially when hot and I've used the dual pump configuration on multiple vehicles with success so I figured I'd try it on this one to see how it works.

 

 

[bkahler]

I've made a little bit of progress on the front end.  The leaf springs have the plastic inserts installed that are sold by Speedway Motors, the front axle is now installed and the steering knuckles are installed.  All of that was done earlier this week.  The last couple of days I've been playing around with the Rusty Hope disc brake conversion kit.  The caliper brackets are installed and last night I shortened the mounted bolts as needed so the didn't protrude past the bracket and into the rotor space.  6 of 8 needed to be shortened between 1/16" and 5/32".   I used a pair of vice grips and a 4-1/2" grinder with a flapper disc to slowly grind the down.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

This weekend I'm going to see about installing the steering tie rod, pitman arm and the drag link.  I'm also hoping to get the rotors installed as well so I can get the truck off jack stands.

 

Brad

 

[ggdad1951]

1 hour ago, bkahler said:

 

I think shoulder bolts will likely be closer to if not spot on .250".  The shank needs to be .244".  I measured a couple of 1/4" bolts and the shank was .247" so I'm hoping that a SHCS will be closer in size.  I think they would also be easier to polish to size if needed.   I'm going to try and source a couple this weekend to play with.

 

 

they will be, but be careful you need a good heat treated bolt.  Hence the suggestion for the shoulder bolt,

[Jeff Balazs]

1 hour ago, bkahler said:

 

I was wondering since you're using yours as a daily driver whether or not you noticed any changes as the miles go by.  

 

On the adjustment I purposely left it on the slightly loose side instead of the slightly tight side.  Due to the star washer I couldn't put it in the spot I would have preferred.  I figure once it's on the road things will move around a bit and I would need to tighten up the steering a bit.  Unless plans change this truck won't be a daily driver, especially since Kentucky salts the roads in the winter.  

 

 

For the time being I will be running both an electric pump and the mechanical pump in series.  The electric pump is right next the the fuel tank outlet.  Mechanical pumps and modern fuels don't play well together especially when hot and I've used the dual pump configuration on multiple vehicles with success so I figured I'd try it on this one to see how it works.

 

 

Brad;

Using one of these trucks as a daily driver has actually been a great experience. I will tell you that while it wont do everything a modern truck will do....... it does what it was intended to do better than most newer trucks do.......and reliably. It has given me a whole new perspective on quality of design and construction.

 

You will probably find that you develop a bit of play in the steering fairly early on. My suggestion is to make very small adjustments until you get it where you want it. Adjust and then drive for a while. Once you have it where you want it ....it should stay there for several thousand miles. Mine has.

 

One thing I can tell you about using one of these trucks on a regular basis is that they tend to get sweeter with use. Mine runs and drives better the more that I use it. In more than 5 years of daily use it has never left me stranded. I don't even have an AAA membership.

 

Jeff

[bkahler]

3 hours ago, ggdad1951 said:

they will be, but be careful you need a good heat treated bolt.  Hence the suggestion for the shoulder bolt,

 

I think the problem with a shoulder bolt will be trying to polish the case hardening .006".  I can certainly try it but I'm not holding my breath.  From what I remember the SHCS are pretty hard as well.  I'll test one with a file to see what the hardness level seems to be.  

[bkahler]

3 hours ago, Jeff Balazs said:

Brad;

Using one of these trucks as a daily driver has actually been a great experience. I will tell you that while it wont do everything a modern truck will do....... it does what it was intended to do better than most newer trucks do.......and reliably. It has given me a whole new perspective on quality of design and construction.

 

You will probably find that you develop a bit of play in the steering fairly early on. My suggestion is to make very small adjustments until you get it where you want it. Adjust and then drive for a while. Once you have it where you want it ....it should stay there for several thousand miles. Mine has.

 

One thing I can tell you about using one of these trucks on a regular basis is that they tend to get sweeter with use. Mine runs and drives better the more that I use it. In more than 5 years of daily use it has never left me stranded. I don't even have an AAA membership.

 

Jeff

 

The steering in the truck when I got it was about 1/4 turn of play as you turned the wheel from side to side so anything that gives me better than 1/4 turn I'm ahead of the game ?

 

If I follow through with plans, after I retire in a few years I'm thinking of heading south west.  If that happens then the truck could turn into a regular driver.  No way that will happen living this close to the rust belt.

 

Thanks for the encouragement.

 

Brad

[bkahler]

I think I need to revisit the shackles on my truck, or at least the installation of the shackles.  20+ years ago I bought new Flagg brand shackles and installed them.  However during installation I did not use any lubricant.  Having been browsing through the manuals the last few months I found references to lubing the bushing before assembly.  

 

Would it be wise for me to remove each bushing, adding lubrication and reassembling?  Or can I get by just installing the grease zerks and injecting grease?

 

I'd like to sort this out before I take it off the jack stands in the near future.

 

So, did I screw up by not lubing the bushings?!

 

Thanks,

 

Brad

[CO54]

Brad, 

Did you have issues getting the steering arms drilled out with the Rusty Hope kit?

That is the issue I've ran into with mine.  I got everything on the spindles drilled and tapped with out issues.  Getting those 9/16" holes opened up is the new challenge.  Might be needing new bits to try again...….

[Jeff Balazs]

18 minutes ago, bkahler said:

 

The steering in the truck when I got it was about 1/4 turn of play as you turned the wheel from side to side so anything that gives me better than 1/4 turn I'm ahead of the game ?

 

If I follow through with plans, after I retire in a few years I'm thinking of heading south west.  If that happens then the truck could turn into a regular driver.  No way that will happen living this close to the rust belt.

 

Thanks for the encouragement.

 

Brad

Brad you are welcome. And for the record I would encourage anyone with one of these trucks to use it often. In general the more you run it the better it will run. IMO the worst thing you can do is let it set.

 

When I started building my truck I had a lot of people tell me that it was never going to work out as a daily driver. Too slow....too tempermental .......too uncomfortable.....etc.

And for the most part that might have been true if I had not made a few mods during the build. Certainly the stock 4.10 rear end would not have cut it. And I think the stock brakes would have held me back in the kind of traffic I have to deal with here. But those were really the only significant things I felt I needed to change. The rest of my tweaks were made to make maintenance easier or to provide a better level of comfort. And I will tell you that with very few minor niggles it has all worked out.

If you end up retiring to the SW you should be able to get regular use from your truck. I would definitely encourage it. They were and still are good old work trucks.

Jeff

 

[bkahler]

38 minutes ago, CO54 said:

Brad, 

Did you have issues getting the steering arms drilled out with the Rusty Hope kit?

That is the issue I've ran into with mine.  I got everything on the spindles drilled and tapped with out issues.  Getting those 9/16" holes opened up is the new challenge.  Might be needing new bits to try again...….

 

Not really.  I've got a 20" drill press and associated clamps that made it fairly easy to accomplish.   Trying to do them with a hand drill would be on the challenging side.  

 

If you want to mail them to me I can drill them out for you.

 

 

[CO54]

17 hours ago, bkahler said:

 

Not really.  I've got a 20" drill press and associated clamps that made it fairly easy to accomplish.   Trying to do them with a hand drill would be on the challenging side.  

 

If you want to mail them to me I can drill them out for you.

 

 

It may come to that, the 10" press and multiple clamps is being difficult. Gonna try again today after the house starts moving and few house projects are done.

Thanks. 

Eric

[bkahler]

1 hour ago, CO54 said:

It may come to that, the 10" press and multiple clamps is being difficult. Gonna try again today after the house starts moving and few house projects are done.

Thanks. 

Eric

 

Low speed is the key.  They slower you can turn the drill bit the better off you'll be.  Large drill bits need to turn really slow

 

 

[CO54]

Learned that lesson by killing a bit.  Gonna get a new on and go as slow as possible.  Got 1 1/2 of the 4 done though. 

[billrigsby]

1 hour ago, bkahler said:

 

Low speed is the key.  They slower you can turn the drill bit the better off you'll be.  Large drill bits need to turn really slow

 

 

 

And add oil or preferably thread cutting oil ?

[bkahler]

Other than the spindle nut on the drivers side and the brake hoses the front disc conversion is complete.   I will say besides the drilling and tapping required on the knuckles this is a very easy kit to install.  Charlie did a good job in developing his kit.  

 

I would have had both spindle nuts done but I forgot to order a second nut back in the spring when I was laying things out.  

 

Charlie suggest either turning the original nut around or buying a new nut and drilling a hole where the cotter pin needs to be.  I choose a third option.  Previously I had the local machinist drill new holes at the very end of the spindle.  I then threaded the nut onto the shaft, determined the right amount of free play in the bearings and then marked the nut indicating where the cotter pin hole was located.  Using a cutoff wheel in an angle grinder I slowly cut a slot in the nut for the cotter pin.  I believe this worked well.  

 

The other thing I did was to order replacement washers.  The original washers are about .125" thick and the replacement washers are about .100" thick.  This allows for more thread engagement of the nut in relation to the slot for the cotter pin.  I tried to find the parts locally but was not successful and I found ebay pricing to be better than Amazon so I ordered from ebay.

 

spindle nut washer

 

spindle nut

 

Once I get the second spindle nut installed I can get the wheels back on and the truck will be setting on all four wheels again.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

Brad

 

[John U]

On 9/25/2020 at 4:07 PM, CO54 said:

Brad, 

Did you have issues getting the steering arms drilled out with the Rusty Hope kit?

That is the issue I've ran into with mine.  I got everything on the spindles drilled and tapped with out issues.  Getting those 9/16" holes opened up is the new challenge.  Might be needing new bits to try again...….

new bits work so much better I fought on side got a new sharp bit for the other side was like butter

[wallytoo]

On 9/25/2020 at 11:14 AM, bkahler said:

 

For the time being I will be running both an electric pump and the mechanical pump in series.  The electric pump is right next the the fuel tank outlet.  Mechanical pumps and modern fuels don't play well together especially when hot and I've used the dual pump configuration on multiple vehicles with success so I figured I'd try it on this one to see how it works.

 

 

 

honestly, i haven’t noticed this at all.  i’ve got 10 years of driving my b-1-f and 21 years driving my cj5 as testament.  both are equipped with mechanical pumps on the block; both have delivered fuel consistently when there was fuel in the tank - important to clarify because i have run out of gas in both multiple times over the years.  i now have working fuel gauges in both.

 

electric pumps fail.  the in-tank pump in my DD ‘87 4runner failed 7 times in just over a year.  the last one was installed in 2016, and has 40k miles on it.

Edited September 28, 2020 by wallytoo

[bkahler]

10 hours ago, wallytoo said:

 

honestly, i haven’t noticed this at all.  i’ve got 10 years of driving my b-1-f and 21 years driving my cj5 as testament.  both are equipped with mechanical pumps on the block; both have delivered fuel consistently when there was fuel in the tank - important to clarify because i have run out of gas in both multiple times over the years.  i now have working fuel gauges in both.

 

electric pumps fail.  the in-tank pump in my DD ‘87 4runner failed 7 times in just over a year.  the last one was installed in 2016, and has 40k miles on it.

 

I wish I could say the same.

 

I've had constant issues with my TR4 even my Ford Ranger as well as a motorhome.  If they sit to long or if they get to hot the fuel just seems to evaporate.  On the motorhome and the TR4 switching to electric pumps in series with the mechanical pumps solved the problems.

 

I don't like in tank pumps, I much prefer the frame rail mounted pumps.

 

 

 

 

[bkahler]

On 9/25/2020 at 4:58 PM, bkahler said:

I think I need to revisit the shackles on my truck, or at least the installation of the shackles.  20+ years ago I bought new Flagg brand shackles and installed them.  However during installation I did not use any lubricant.  Having been browsing through the manuals the last few months I found references to lubing the bushing before assembly.  

 

Would it be wise for me to remove each bushing, adding lubrication and reassembling?  Or can I get by just installing the grease zerks and injecting grease?

 

I'd like to sort this out before I take it off the jack stands in the near future.

 

So, did I screw up by not lubing the bushings?!

 

Thanks,

 

Brad

 

I didn't get any responses on this so I guess I'll move forward with just adding grease to each of the shackles and see what happens!

 

Brad

[John U]

On 9/25/2020 at 10:14 AM, bkahler said:

 

I was wondering since you're using yours as a daily driver whether or not you noticed any changes as the miles go by.  

 

On the adjustment I purposely left it on the slightly loose side instead of the slightly tight side.  Due to the star washer I couldn't put it in the spot I would have preferred.  I figure once it's on the road things will move around a bit and I would need to tighten up the steering a bit.  Unless plans change this truck won't be a daily driver, especially since Kentucky salts the roads in the winter.  

 

 

For the time being I will be running both an electric pump and the mechanical pump in series.  The electric pump is right next the the fuel tank outlet.  Mechanical pumps and modern fuels don't play well together especially when hot and I've used the dual pump configuration on multiple vehicles with success so I figured I'd try it on this one to see how it works.

 

 

I tried that with mine when it was stock and had the same problem but I found that the Electric would not work because there's a check valve at the mechanical pump that won't let it thru

[bkahler]

2 hours ago, John U said:

I tried that with mine when it was stock and had the same problem but I found that the Electric would not work because there's a check valve at the mechanical pump that won't let it thru

 

This is the first that I've heard of a check valve in the mechanical pump.  However, my use for the electric pump is as a pusher up to the mechanical pump.  The fuel issues I've experience with the modern fuels around here are the fuel evaporates from the fuel bowls over time and it takes a lot of cranking to get from from the tank to the pump.  The addition of the electric pump has solved this problem in the vehicles I've used them on.

[Jeff Balazs]

There is definitely more than one approach to fuel delivery. The solution I chose was to install a full time electric fuel pump back at the tank and ditch the mechanical pump altogether. This was a change I decided upon as I read various posting regarding pump failures. I feel that it has been 100% effective in preventing 3 fairly common problems. I have not had my truck stall in traffic due to a simple pump failure. Even more critical there is no path for raw fuel to enter the crankcase during a major pump failure. And It has helped eliminate hard starting problems when the engine is hot.

The pump I installed is a large rotary vane pump and it has a sealed canister type fuel filter ahead of it and one just before the carb. This has worked flawlessly for more than 5 years of regular use. After reading some of the horror stories here and elsewhere I wouldn't do it any other way.

Jeff

[billrigsby]

 

While I have read about the failures, stalling, diluted fuel, etc.

Wondering, (always thinking) - I like the look of the glass bowl on the Mechanical Pump.

Is it possible to 'disable and seal' it, use an electric pump and just pass through,

and still use the screen filter and glass bowl?  Ever been done, or will I be the First?  ?

[Dave72dt]

There should be two check valves in the pump that can be removed as well as the push rod that operates the pump.  If the check valves are correctly installed and are not plugged, they should not impair the flow of fuel being pushed by an electric pump.  They are very low pressure valves and broken or rusty springs or a little dirt or rust can prevent them from functioning properly.