The D.C. P15 Update

[HotRodTractor]

Fuel system is good to go. Tank seems to hold gas now,, electric pusher pump installed and operational. I do have to fix a bad clamp on the fuel filler neck, but that is minor and a rather quick fix, I just didn't have time Sunday evening after I discovered it.

 

I found that I have a slight coolant leak - lower radiator hose seems to have a bad seal at on end. Going to get a new hose and new clamps so that can be crossed off. Its doesn't appear to be a huge leak, but I did have a slightly damp floor under the front of the car after I returned it to the shop from beating on it hard to see what shakes loose.

 

I spent some time trying to figure out what I needed for my speedometer. The drive and driven gears to run the cable are quite a complex mess the more I dug into it. I ordered a new driven gear that should get me close IF it works. Apparently there are at least 3 different diameters of drive gears combined with different tooth counts. I figure the new driven gear has about a 25% chance of working. lol It was $6 added onto an order I was already making. If it doesn't - then I will have to pull the tailshaft housing and swap out the drive gear and combine that with a new driven gear and I will be in business. Rough calculation says the speedometer is running about 20% too high.

 

I took the car out Sunday to run a couple of errands and put it through her paces. It performed well, although it did have a bit of a time firing back up after I stopped to pick up some last minute items at the grocery store Sunday evening. I took her up to about 80 on a secret test track in Mexico. Everything worked well. I was concerned that the electric fuel pump I installed was actually going to be borderline too small at WOT, but it appeared to keep up just fine from a SOTP perspective. I'll make sure and have a pressure gauge installed to confirm, but for right now - I'm happy.

[55 Fargo]

3 hours ago, HotRodTractor said:

Fuel system is good to go. Tank seems to hold gas now,, electric pusher pump installed and operational. I do have to fix a bad clamp on the fuel filler neck, but that is minor and a rather quick fix, I just didn't have time Sunday evening after I discovered it.

 

I found that I have a slight coolant leak - lower radiator hose seems to have a bad seal at on end. Going to get a new hose and new clamps so that can be crossed off. Its doesn't appear to be a huge leak, but I did have a slightly damp floor under the front of the car after I returned it to the shop from beating on it hard to see what shakes loose.

 

I spent some time trying to figure out what I needed for my speedometer. The drive and driven gears to run the cable are quite a complex mess the more I dug into it. I ordered a new driven gear that should get me close IF it works. Apparently there are at least 3 different diameters of drive gears combined with different tooth counts. I figure the new driven gear has about a 25% chance of working. lol It was $6 added onto an order I was already making. If it doesn't - then I will have to pull the tailshaft housing and swap out the drive gear and combine that with a new driven gear and I will be in business. Rough calculation says the speedometer is running about 20% too high.

 

I took the car out Sunday to run a couple of errands and put it through her paces. It performed well, although it did have a bit of a time firing back up after I stopped to pick up some last minute items at the grocery store Sunday evening. I took her up to about 80 on a secret test track in Mexico. Everything worked well. I was concerned that the electric fuel pump I installed was actually going to be borderline too small at WOT, but it appeared to keep up just fine from a SOTP perspective. I'll make sure and have a pressure gauge installed to confirm, but for right now - I'm happy.

Hard starts when hot?

Typical of a lot of these engines.

[HotRodTractor]

3 hours ago, 55 Fargo said:

Hard starts when hot?

Typical of a lot of these engines.

 

Yeah - I'm not surprised at hard starts when hot - I've had more than a few vintage engines that didn't care for hot restarts.

 

I also didn't buy a turn key car. It was never advertised as such.

 

Long road trips are totally on the list of things this car can do now. Take anything and have it sit for a while and things will deteriorate some. I'm happy with my purchase, and I hope that the seller is happy as well.

[55 Fargo]

10 minutes ago, HotRodTractor said:

 

Yeah - I'm not surprised at hard starts when hot - I've had more than a few vintage engines that didn't care for hot restarts.

 

I also didn't buy a turn key car. It was never advertised as such.

 

Long road trips are totally on the list of things this car can do now. Take anything and have it sit for a while and things will deteriorate some. I'm happy with my purchase, and I hope that the seller is happy as well.

If your happy all that matters. Correct?

Hot starts can be a bitch. Have not found a real solution for this to date, have you?

I dont recall any Slant6 of mine being hard to start when really hot out. Lots of flathead 6s though.

 

[T120]

Might be an idea to check the fuel pressure if you're using the electric pump all the time and install a fuel pressure regulator if necessary (if pressure exceeds normal limit). From experience I've had in the past, when I installed an electric pump (in series with the mechanical pump) I only used it for cold starts and then switched it off.It worked very well. On a hot engine an electric fuel pump may possibly cause flooding when restarting...Just my thoughts.

Edited April 22, 2019 by T120

[HotRodTractor]

1 hour ago, 55 Fargo said:

If your happy all that matters. Correct?

Hot starts can be a bitch. Have not found a real solution for this to date, have you?

I dont recall any Slant6 of mine being hard to start when really hot out. Lots of flathead 6s though.

 

 

Correct.

 

I haven't really found any silver bullet to the problem. At the end of the day its heat soak. Heat soak in the carbs, heat soak in the fuel line, heat soak in the fuel pump. I suspect that the slant 6 with the longer intake runners probably helps dissipate just enough heat that it isn't an issue. Pure speculation though.

 

In any case - a little bit of cranking and it fire and cleared her throat. Maybe 4 or 5 10 second bursts. More than I would have liked, but if its the carbs themselves getting heat soaked - it shouldn't take too much air going through them to cool them off enough. The only other quicker way that would be easier on the started would be a little alternative fuel being either sprayed or dumped down the carbs. I'm not really about that.... so I'll monitor it and make a decision as I get more experience with this exact issue. It might just be what it is.

 

52 minutes ago, T120 said:

Might be an idea to check the fuel pressure if you're using the electric pump all the time and install a fuel pressure regulator if necessary (if pressure exceeds normal limit). From experience I've had in the past, when I installed an electric pump (in series with the mechanical pump) I only used it for cold starts and then switched it off.It worked very well. On a hot engine an electric fuel pump may possibly cause flooding when restarting...Just my thoughts.

 

Granted I have not checked the fuel pressure - but this acted a lot more like a vapor lock than a flood situation. I've always had to choke this engine to get it to fire, both before and after the electric fuel pump. In fact I ended up choking it more than I thought I should have to get it to fire when it was heat soaked. Once fired it was great.

 

I've had the electric fuel on the car for several days at this point, yesterday was just the first time I really went out and leaned on it to make sure everything was good. In fact I've had the carb tops off twice now to make sure the electric pump wasn't overpowering the float and causing issues.

 

 

 

[Plymouthy Adams]

on heat soak....with modern fuels the alcohol has a lower expansion temperature and well the engine is going to run x degrees.....the cure at times is lesser fuel in the bowl by adjusting the floats.  The very odds that you are going to outrun the fuel in those twin carb bowls against filling with an electric fuel pump is SLIM SLIM SLIM.   Another easy overlooked item is the heat of the very coil itself...these cause hard start more than most fuel probs.  Next occurrence...verify that your spark voltage is not weaker when hot.  I cold pack about the coil for testing will be a quick and easy test.

[Don Coatney]

Not sure what the hard to start issue is. I did not have that problem.

[TodFitch]

Please avoid personal attacks and comments or this thread will be locked.

[55 Fargo]

1 hour ago, Plymouthy Adams said:

on heat soak....with modern fuels the alcohol has a lower expansion temperature and well the engine is going to run x degrees.....the cure at times is lesser fuel in the bowl by adjusting the floats.  The very odds that you are going to outrun the fuel in those twin carb bowls against filling with an electric fuel pump is SLIM SLIM SLIM.   Another easy overlooked item is the heat of the very coil itself...these cause hard start more than most fuel probs.  Next occurrence...verify that your spark voltage is not weaker when hot.  I cold pack about the coil for testing will be a quick and easy test.

Hi Tim, never run ethanol blended fuels and same results.

I agree the coil can get hot and make it a hard start too.

I tried the lower float fix, marginal results...

Edited April 22, 2019 by 55 Fargo

[HotRodTractor]

47 minutes ago, Plymouthy Adams said:

on heat soak....with modern fuels the alcohol has a lower expansion temperature and well the engine is going to run x degrees.....the cure at times is lesser fuel in the bowl by adjusting the floats.  The very odds that you are going to outrun the fuel in those twin carb bowls against filling with an electric fuel pump is SLIM SLIM SLIM.   Another easy overlooked item is the heat of the very coil itself...these cause hard start more than most fuel probs.  Next occurrence...verify that your spark voltage is not weaker when hot.  I cold pack about the coil for testing will be a quick and easy test. 

 

I'll certainly test the coil next time it happens. I didn't really give that a thought as it seemed to me that it was fuel starvation related.

[55 Fargo]

2 minutes ago, HotRodTractor said:

 

I'll certainly test the coil next time it happens. I didn't really give that a thought as it seemed to me that it was fuel starvation related.

Yes I agree mine is symptomatic of starving for fuel rather than flooding.

[T120]

I would consider Tim's suggestion on lowering the fuel level. I was on a trip with a couple of friends years ago and we stopped for lunch. It was a hot day.One of them opened the hood of his vehicle and fuel was visibly fizzing and bubbling (percolating) in the glass fuel bowl at the carburetor. In a case like that, the expansion of the fuel in the carburetor , possibly dripping into the throat of the carburetor with the engine off and pooling in the intake manifold might cause hard starting.An electric fuel pump activated when the key is turned on could aggravate the situation. 

Edited April 22, 2019 by T120

[55 Fargo]

38 minutes ago, T120 said:

I would consider Tim's suggestion on lowering the fuel level. I was on a trip with a couple of friends years ago and we stopped for lunch. It was a hot day.One of them opened the hood of his vehicle and fuel was visibly fizzing and bubbling (percolating) in the glass fuel bowl at the carburetor. In a case like that, the expansion of the fuel in the carburetor , possibly dripping into the throat of the carburetor with the engine off and pooling in the intake manifold might cause hard starting.An electric fuel pump activated when the key is turned on could aggravate the situation. 

Yes this can absolutely happen.

But lowering float(s) may help but fuel can still boil and expand.

Worse with ethanol corn squeezin hootch fuel...

Ive tried lowering float but how well does it work on a 90 degree day.

[HotRodTractor]

After doing some poking around it appears that phenolic carb spacers that should work on these carbs are readily available for some other brands. Most notably available for Chevy inlines. 2-15/16 stud spacing, 1.7" bore, and available at least in 1/4" and 1/2" varieties off the shelf, probably more if I look harder. I need to double check a couple of things to see if I can get away with 1/2" without a lot of fuss with the linkage - but that will have to wait until I am back home. Off to Michigan tomorrow, then to the Carolinas later in the week.

 

It seems like this should be an easy test - I might even borrow the thermal imaging camera..... drive it around and get it good and warm under the hood. Pop the hood and take a thermal image immediately before shutting it off. Take a thermal image say every 5 minutes for 20 or 30  minutes making sure just to pop the hood long enough to image. Repeat the same test with the spacers installed.

[Don Coatney]

As I mentioned earlier I never had that problem. And I drove the car on some very hot days. What changed? The  electric fuel pump?

[HotRodTractor]

36 minutes ago, Don Coatney said:

As I mentioned earlier I never had that problem. And I drove the car on some very hot days. What changed? The  electric fuel pump?

 

I can't say. I don't know. I do know that I had it happen before the electric pump, but I shrugged it off at the time. The car takes a bit to start when cold, when just warmed up it will start no problem, when heat soaked... it takes a bit. Its not insurmountable, and I haven't been stuck anywhere with the hood popped waiting on it to cool down.

[Plymouthy Adams]

you do remember this is a dual point distributor and requires setting each point set independently with a combined dwell of yet another value....you must block the electrical connection on the one point set when setting the other

Edited April 23, 2019 by Plymouthy Adams

[HotRodTractor]

8 hours ago, Plymouthy Adams said:

you do remember this is a dual point distributor and requires setting each point set independently with a combined dwell of yet another value....you must block the electrical connection on the one point set when setting the other

 

I thought I did it correctly when I cleaned the points last fall - but its certainly worth a double check. I'll put that at the top of the list of things to do when I get back home.

 

On Edit: That isn't how I set the dwell. I blocked the secondary and set the primary, then I simply adjusted the secondary to get the total dwell. 26 degrees of dwell on the primary set and I think I set it 34 degrees total.

Edited April 23, 2019 by HotRodTractor
Added Info

[Plymouthy Adams]

your dual point conversion is that of the Dyna-flite model 406D and has direct application to the Mopar flathead 6  further, the instructions that came with this plate is as follows...

 

Don posted his original packaging and instructions for install and setting of the points long ago..roll over 50's dist. to highlight link....see post entry #3

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited April 23, 2019 by Plymouthy Adams

[Don Coatney]

[HotRodTractor]

It appears that I have definitely short changed my dwell.

 

I set the initial advance at 2 degrees and now realize that I have neglected to ask Don what he was running it at. I figured that was a safe spot to start and get a feel for it.

[Don Coatney]

If I recall I was running at 0-1 degree advance.

[knuckleharley]

On 4/17/2019 at 10:09 AM, MackTheFinger said:

 

I took a leaky tank off one of my cars a couple of years ago, sanded it down, washed it with lacquer thinner, lathered it up with JB Weld, let is set for about a week before putting gas in it, and it lasted a couple of months. It may have started leaking in another spot but I wasn't really interested in looking.

 

If money's short, by all means do whatever it takes but the only sure way to fix a rusted out, leaky gas tank is to replace it. If it's rusted through in one place it'll rust through in another before you know it. And don't sell it to someone else without letting them know what you've done. That's bad karma.?

I have discovered as I get older and more feeble that time is now more important to me than money,and I just don't have the patience to do something more than once. I have bought two new gas tanks for antique cars from Tanks,Inc,and both fit and worked like a dream. IIRC,they each cost around 230 bucks including shipping. When you consider how little 230 bucks buys these days and  how valuable your remaining time is,my vote is to never screw with an old leaking or rusty gas tank. ESPECIALLY in this day of ethanol fuel that eats old gas tank sealers like acid. Just buy a new one and be done with it.

[knuckleharley]

On 4/22/2019 at 11:13 AM, 55 Fargo said:

If your happy all that matters. Correct?

Hot starts can be a bitch. Have not found a real solution for this to date, have you?

I dont recall any Slant6 of mine being hard to start when really hot out. Lots of flathead 6s though.

 

Hard starts when hot are standard equipment with flathead engines,6 or 8.  The only "solution" I ever discovered was to drink another cup of coffee and wait for it to cool down.

 

Wrapping all the gas lines with heat resistant wrap might help some,though.

 

AFATG,swapping out the underhood hard steel gas lines with rubber gas lines will probably help a lot,but make damn sure you are getting rubber lines rated for ethanol gas or buy a REALLY big fire extinguisher to take with you everywhere you go.

 

I guess,if  you wanted,if you could find a rubber gas line with the same ID as the OD of your gas line,you could use that as an outer insulator to keep heat away from the gas line and still have the security of a steel line. Never tried it because I just now thought of it,but I see no reason why it wouldn't help.

Edited April 28, 2019 by knuckleharley