Game plan

[palmersparts]

Having been off work a couple of days.  Spending some time on the phone with dad, we have started to come up with a game plan for the 52 cambridge.. The problems with putting the 315 we have in seem to be more then we want to tackle so it will keep a 6cyl flattie!  Seeings as its stuck and has over 100K on it it will go to the machine shop for an overhaul.  So that leads to some questions.  Is the difference between the 218 and the 230 worth looking for a crank  and rods to swap in? also how much can you take off the head and block to bump the compression..     in the long run  it would get the  mini hei distributor, possible a split set of headers,  and hopefully O/D and or rearend swap.

 

Once i get a chance to get back to dads (thats where she is for now)   Im going to pull the plugs and fill the cylinders with some kind of soak and then play the waiting game..

 

I will try and get some pics for you guys too

[knuckleharley]

1 hour ago, palmersparts said:

Having been off work a couple of days.  Spending some time on the phone with dad, we have started to come up with a game plan for the 52 cambridge.. The problems with putting the 315 we have in seem to be more then we want to tackle so it will keep a 6cyl flattie!  Seeings as its stuck and has over 100K on it it will go to the machine shop for an overhaul.  So that leads to some questions.  Is the difference between the 218 and the 230 worth looking for a crank  and rods to swap in? also how much can you take off the head and block to bump the compression..     in the long run  it would get the  mini hei distributor, possible a split set of headers,  and hopefully O/D and or rearend swap.

 

Once i get a chance to get back to dads (thats where she is for now)   Im going to pull the plugs and fill the cylinders with some kind of soak and then play the waiting game..

 

I will try and get some pics for you guys too

No need to wait a long time. Pull all the plugs,close all the valves,and then put some whatever in it and put air pressure from your air compressor on it.  Just think about how well 150 psi or so of air pressure will work pushing ATF,Kroil,WD40 Rust Penetrator,etc,etc,etc past the rings.

 

Some will free up immediately. One or two will probably take the most time. Those are the ones that are really stuck.

 

Remember,the rings and pistons are the brittle points in that operation,and the less force you have to use the better off you are and the cheaper your rebuild will be.

[Reg Evans]

The 52 Plym  Cambridge 218 was rated at 97hp.  A 52 Dodge Coronet 230 was rated at 103hp.  If you were lucky enough to find a later 50's 230 they were rated at 138hp !

[palmersparts]

any one know  what they did to gain the extra 35 hp???    in some of my reading  i see 52  timing was tdc   and the newer ones advanced the timing!!  but there has to be more then just a timing bump.....

[Dozerman51]

A two barrel intake and carb. were used to get to that HP. along with an 8:1 compression head. I installed one of those heads on my stock 230 motor in my 1941 WC-12 and I could immediately fell the extra “Pop” when I stepped on the gas. Chrysler Corp. changed the design of the combustion chamber in the head to get that CR. You can do the same thing by having your head shaved. Just be careful not to go too far or the valves will not like it. LOL.

[Dozerman51]

If you want to change to the later 57-59 head look for one that has a casting(And I believe part #) Of 1676337-1 or 2. If you are installing this head on a vehicle that used the older mechanical temp gauge, you will have to drill the electric sending unit hole out and re-tap for the mechanical tube gauge. If you are using this later head, look out for the extra water passage on motorsfrom 1951 and later. If you are installing a later head on an earlier engine, the later head gasket must also be used.

[palmersparts]

Thanks dozerman !!!  I saw a head for sale the other day  that was milled 50ths    thats why i wondered how far was safe to go...   i milled a set of heads on a skidoo  years ago..   when it didn't want to turn over smooth with the heads torqued on,  i pulled em back off and could see marks when the piston was touching  the head at TDC....  luckily  the old head gaskets hadn't been thrown away...    i put double head gaskets on it and made it run...   but learned a very valuable lesson...

[Dozerman51]

According to a book I have, “Dodge Pickups- History and Restoration Guide 1918-1971, they claim you can mill the stock head anywhere from 0.060 to 0.125. 

[knuckleharley]

11 minutes ago, palmersparts said:

Thanks dozerman !!!  I saw a head for sale the other day  that was milled 50ths    thats why i wondered how far was safe to go...   i milled a set of heads on a skidoo  years ago..   when it didn't want to turn over smooth with the heads torqued on,  i pulled em back off and could see marks when the piston was touching  the head at TDC....  luckily  the old head gaskets hadn't been thrown away...    i put double head gaskets on it and made it run...   but learned a very valuable lesson...

One trick old-timers used to use to save a head that had been milled to much was to have a mill a thick copper gasket to use to bring things back down to the normal compression range.

It would probably be pretty pricey to have a machinist do this for you these days,but if you are in no hurry you can always get it done by a high school or community college machine shop class that is looking for work experience.

[Dozerman51]

Hi Knuckleharley,

Always like to hear about the way it was done in the “Old”days.  I see you have a Dodge 4x4 Truck. What year and model.

[knuckleharley]

2 hours ago, Dozerman51 said:

Hi Knuckleharley,

Always like to hear about the way it was done in the “Old”days.  I see you have a Dodge 4x4 Truck. What year and model.

I  have two 37 Dodge big trucks. One  is a cab with fenders,hood and grille that was a 2 ton flatbed,but I cut the chassis off behind the cab so it would fit into the back of my pu. I just sold the engine and trans to a member in Texas,and need to finish pulling it and boxing it up as soon as the snow goes away.

 

The other one is a 37 Dodge 1 ton body only. It is now sitting on a 71-72 Ford F-250 4X4 chassis and still has the 390 FE engine and HD truck 4 speed in it. I have it off the road now to redo the brakes and add pb and PS to it. I have another 71 F-250 FE truck to use as a donor that has factory ps and pb.

 

Old computer died and I don't have any photos of it on this one,but it was all a pretty good fit.

[Dozerman51]

Sounds like Tour tuck is a  great resto-mod.  “Outstanding”. 

[Dozerman51]

“Your” not “Tour”. Old Age creeeping in. LOL

[Don Coatney]

This might or might not help.

 

[Los_Control]

A old toyota I use to own had a poor head design, was known to warp because of no headbolts down the middle where needed.

Toyota made and sold a spacer to go in between the head and head gasket, it would seal the warpage with the extra thickness.

I could not find the spacer at any local parts store and had to order it. Instead I just put 2 head gaskets on it.

Drove it that way for a few years until the carburettor finally gave out and was not worth putting any more money into it.

 

Only point here is, I know you can put 2 head gaskets together and will work and last just fine, how much thickness do you need for clearance?

Can you stack 3 head gaskets? I dunno but do not see why not if it will give you the clearance needed.

Seems like I have read another post somewhere where they made shims for heads after machining and fine tuning to get desired compression ratio on hot rods.

So if anyone ask, you can always say you shimmed the head for desired effectiveness  

[knuckleharley]

2 hours ago, Don Coatney said:

This might or might not help.

 

Don,can you give me the data on that book so I can look it up and buy it?

[DonaldSmith]

"Tour tuck" = "Your truck".  Accoursed typos!

 

My grandson could say "car" from his infancy, but had trouble saying "truck".  It came out just wrong.      

[Don Coatney]

10 hours ago, knuckleharley said:

Don,can you give me the data on that book so I can look it up and buy it?

I could quote other forum members and say that is top secret proprietary information but I wont go hide there when I don't have the information. Fact is I do not have a clue what book this came from as I found this information posted on the enter web several years ago. 

[Plymouthy Adams]

5 hours ago, DonaldSmith said:

"Tour tuck" = "Your truck".  Accoursed typos!

 

My grandson could say "car" from his infancy, but had trouble saying "truck".  It came out just wrong.      

crows have the same problem and get killed by trucks...as the look out crow while feeding along side the highway can only yell out  caaw caaw

[knuckleharley]

8 minutes ago, Don Coatney said:

I could quote other forum members and say that is top secret proprietary information but I wont go hide there when I don't have the information. Fact is I do not have a clue what book this came from as I found this information posted on the enter web several years ago. 

Thanks anyhow.

I have always been told that you could mill pretty much any flathead head up to .125 with no trouble,providing it has never been milled before.

 

I had the head off my flat 6 1939 IHC milled .125 because that's how much it had to be milled to keep the oil from leaking out from under the head and running down the block. Old truck started easy and was very slow off the line,but I could drive it all day at 55-60 MPH if I stopped every 20 miles or so to dump a quart of oil in it. I would have never believed it was possible for a head to be that warped and still have each cylinder fire and be easy to start,but there was the proof parked right in my yard.

 

Got tired of that and had it milled,and it was an absolute revelation. Taking off and running up to highway speed  was like driving a 60's 6 cylinder OHV truck. The power gain was unbelievable. It was like I had a whole new truck.

 

Unfortunately the radiator blew a seam or 3 on the way home,and it's been parked every since. Radiators for late 30's IHC,are VERY expensive. In fact,everything I have ever bought for that truck has been more expensive than for any GM,Ford,or Mopar I ever owned. IHC parts suppliers were wanting 90+ bucks for a freaking wheel cylinder. I matched up the parts numbers and found out the wheel cylinders were the same as the ones used in 53-54 Corvettes,and bought new ones on sale from Amazon for less than $5 each.

 

In my next life,I want to be a IHC parts vendor.

[Young Ed]

You have a D series? Always loved the look of those IHs. 

[Plymouthy Adams]

1 hour ago, knuckleharley said:

Thanks anyhow.

I have always been told that you could mill pretty much any flathead head up to .125 with no trouble,providing it has never been milled before.

 

I had the head off my flat 6 1939 IHC milled .125 because that's how much it had to be milled to keep the oil from leaking out from under the head and running down the block. Old truck started easy and was very slow off the line,but I could drive it all day at 55-60 MPH if I stopped every 20 miles or so to dump a quart of oil in it. I would have never believed it was possible for a head to be that warped and still have each cylinder fire and be easy to start,but there was the proof parked right in my yard.

 

Got tired of that and had it milled,and it was an absolute revelation. Taking off and running up to highway speed  was like driving a 60's 6 cylinder OHV truck. The power gain was unbelievable. It was like I had a whole new truck.

 

Unfortunately the radiator blew a seam or 3 on the way home,and it's been parked every since. Radiators for late 30's IHC,are VERY expensive. In fact,everything I have ever bought for that truck has been more expensive than for any GM,Ford,or Mopar I ever owned. IHC parts suppliers were wanting 90+ bucks for a freaking wheel cylinder. I matched up the parts numbers and found out the wheel cylinders were the same as the ones used in 53-54 Corvettes,and bought new ones on sale from Amazon for less than $5 each.

 

In my next life,I want to be a IHC parts vendor.

 

knuckle, what oil passage runs through the head of the IHC flathead engine....what is its purpose/what is it lubing...or is your ring blow by so bad that it caused oil residue to be blown out at a compression leak area, which would mean a re-ring is in order along with the milling.

[knuckleharley]

5 hours ago, Plymouthy Adams said:

crows have the same problem and get killed by trucks...as the look out crow while feeding along side the highway can only yell out  caaw caaw

Only Boston crows have that problem.

[knuckleharley]

4 hours ago, Young Ed said:

You have a D series? Always loved the look of those IHs. 

I love the art deco look of these things,and they still work surprisingly well as drivers and haulers in today's traffic.

It also draws more attention than anything else I own. Everytime I park it somewhere,when I come back to the truck there is always somebody taking photos of it with their camera. I think the push-out windshield,the fan mounted on the dash,and the art deco grille is what pulls them in more than anything else.

 

Wish I could find an affordable radiator for it so I could put it back on the road. Every new one I find is a grand or more. To ME,that's a lot of money to sink into a beater truck I just use to haul trash and drive around occasionally for fun.

 

It is all original,too. The serial numbers on the block,the chassis,and the cab all match.

Edited January 10, 2018 by knuckleharley

[knuckleharley]

3 hours ago, Plymouthy Adams said:

 

knuckle, what oil passage runs through the head of the IHC flathead engine....what is its purpose/what is it lubing...or is your ring blow by so bad that it caused oil residue to be blown out at a compression leak area, which would mean a re-ring is in order along with the milling.

I honestly don't know. I never thought about it.  There can't be much ring  blow by because it doesn't smoke and doesn't even have any base pressure.

I could just see oil running down both sides of the block,and the primary reason I had the head milled was to stop the oil leaks. The added compression and power was just a bonus.