Valve Work - 1953 L6 264.5 CI C60 Windsor Deluxe

[keithb7]

46 minutes ago, keithb7 said:

Double Post.

 

 

Edited June 23, 2017 by keithb7

[thebeebe5]

12 hours ago, keithb7 said:

Thanks folks. The valve guides do show some wear. The pilot for the tool fits tight in most guides. I suspect one or two are close to out of spec. I have not rebuilt one of these engines before. This is my first time going in. I suspect to change the guides you need to pull the cam and roll the engine over?Use a punch and from the basement, push them out toward head deck. Am I right?

 

Unless that  motor has had guides done already at some point they're likely cast as part of the block. Cast iron works fine as a guide and the casting would have been drilled to precisiy fit the valve stem at the factory.   For worn "guides" in a cast block a machinist would drill the cast section out and drive in a (usually) silicone bronze replacement guide which is an upgrade from the old iron guide. Not something to be done in an assembled   engine.   You'll end up with a metallic mess....  New valves might tighten things up a tad as valve stems do wear, but that metal is harder than the casting it rides in, so it's likely not worn much.  

I expect (hope) to be reusing most of the 80 year old valves in my engine and I'll be updating all my steps in my "time for an overhaul" thread. At some point two exhaust valves got replaced, so I don't have all the original valves available. Some of my guides are fine, but some exhibit wear enough to certainly be out of spec (although I have not measured any at this point, just noted there was too much "wiggle" upon disassembly).  I'll be drilling all guides and replacing with the silicone bronze inserts.

[keithb7]

Thank you @thebeebe5 for the info on valve guides.

I spent some time last night cutting seats. The intake seats are soft, cut into the block, and cut pretty easily. The smaller exhaust valve seats, I believe are stellite inserts. They are quite hard and require a lot more effort to cut. The instructions on the seat cutter box stated a speed wrench could be used. It works pretty well, except it won't fit at the rear two valves. I'll figure something out for there.

So far I am seeing improvement in the sealing area when I drop in a new valve. I have been using a bright LED flashlight for a quick visual with the old valve in place, then again after I cut the seat and place a new valve in. I have been shining the flashlight in through the manifold ports in the block. As I grind I can see the surfaces sealing up by checking for light. Patience and diligence seem to be key here. I am getting quite acquainted with my fender, my upper body and back is getting a good work out.

[knuckleharley]

12 minutes ago, keithb7 said:

Thank you @thebeebe5 for the info on valve guides.

I spent some time last night cutting seats. The intake seats are soft, cut into the block, and cut pretty easily. The smaller exhaust valve seats, I believe are stellite inserts. They are quite hard and require a lot more effort to cut. The instructions on the seat cutter box stated a speed wrench could be used. It works pretty well, except it won't fit at the rear two valves. I'll figure something out for there.

So far I am seeing improvement in the sealing area when I drop in a new valve. I have been using a bright LED flashlight for a quick visual with the old valve in place, then again after I cut the seat and place a new valve in. I have been shining the flashlight in through the manifold ports in the block. As I grind I can see the surfaces sealing up by checking for light. Patience and diligence seem to be key here. I am getting quite acquainted with my fender, my upper body and back is getting a good work out.

Buy a can of Dyken Blue (or red,if you prefer). It's what machinists use. It is a very thin dye that dries quickly,and you can make a few laps and then look and immediately see where the high and low spots are,and see when there are no more high and low spots. A small can will last you forever. You can buy them anywhere machine tools are sold,and probably from amazon and ebay.

[keithb7]

I think I'm making some progress here on the valves and seats. The blue layout dye is an excellent visual aid and really, a must for this job. Well at least the way I am doing it. Climbing over the rad and bearing down on the rear most valve seats to hand cut, is a good lesson in patience and balance. LOL. A bright light and a 4X power magnifying glass were good tools too. The cutter tool above does work, but has it's limitations. It takes time and lots of sweat. Oh and a few beer for sure.

The seats are all cut and lapping is coming along. Here below you can see the lapped contact area of one of my new intake valves.  All valves are now looking about the same. I have an even contact area around the entire valve and seat. Ideally I suppose, a nice wide contact area across the full valve face area is best. I'm not sure I can get there with the hand tool and elbow grease that I am using. I assume that a valve grind done with proper machine tools will yield full seat contact. Which offers better sealing and good cooling of the valves. 

My experience here now tells me pulling the block for a full machining job and new valve inserts is definitely the preferred way to go. As mentioned I'm just attempting to squeeze some more life out of my engine. Is this lapped area wide enough to do the job required?

Comments from the experienced folks here is appreciated.
Thanks. Keith

 

[Silverdome]

The short answer is if the seat and the valve have the same length of surface then yes it needs to show that is sealing all the way across. Measure across the flat area of the seat and matching valve and you will know how much should be touching for maximum seal.

[Dodgeb4ya]

Too wide of seat to valve face contact can be a bad thing. Carbon flaking build up on the seat can occur because of this.

The correct .060" to .085" seat to valve face contact width will help to prevent valves from not completely seating at times because of this possible carbon contamination.

The correct seat width will chisel any carbon flakes and prevent carbon build up on the seats causing over heating valves and loss of compression.

Seat contact area is critical too... not all the way out to the valve face margin and not all the way in either.

[thebeebe5]

1 hour ago, Dodgeb4ya said:

Too wide of seat to valve face contact can be a bad thing. Carbon flaking build up on the seat can occur because of this.

The correct .060" to .085" seat to valve face contact width will help to prevent valves from not completely seating at times because of this possible carbon contamination.

The correct seat width will chisel any carbon flakes and prevent carbon build up on the seats causing over heating valves and loss of compression.

Seat contact area is critical too... not all the way out to the valve face margin and not all the way in either.

+1

when I grind valves I shoot for about 0.070"

[Silverdome]

1 hour ago, thebeebe5 said:

+1

when I grind valves I shoot for about 0.070"

This is why I said "the short answer". I did not have the specs in front of me and this is the reasoning behind the three angle grind. Thanks for the complete answer and illustrations.

[keithb7]

Thanks folks. I think I'm there with the seating sufaces. There's just 1 stubborn stellite seat that so far does not want to form a good seal. About 3/8 of the face diameter of one valve is letting a sliver of light through, when I do the bright flashlight test.  I've spent a fair bit of time cutting this seat. The small light gap is getting tighter. I had to give up, as I'm headed out of town on business for 3 days. I keep cutting through the dye but it seems I've got another thou' or two to go to seal it up tight. 

This is the last seat as all the others look good to me.  I'll get to it later this week and hopefully start reassembly shortly after. 

Next hurdle will be coming up with a way to get all the tiny cutting debris out of the manifold passages in the head. Thinking I'll lay rags over the tappets and spray solvent down the guides. Maybe put  valve covers back on and let solvent flow out of manifold area, down side of block into a drain pan. When it looks good maybe blow it all out with compressed air.

Any other better ideas to do it right? Thx. 

Edited June 25, 2017 by keithb7

[Silverdome]

Using a magnet should help.

[keithb7]

Still alive here are making progress. Too many darn honey-doo's. Seems like 4 out of every 5 evenings after work I need to be somewhere else other than in my garage.

Some notes: The blue dye I used to cut in the valve seats, and lap the valves. It reads on the bottle, "to remove use denatured alcohol". It turns out thats not an easy find up here in Canada. Somewhere I read someone said to ask for it at the pharmacist, they'd have it behind the counter. Well no they don't, but the pharmacist was able to help me. Denatured alcohol means it undrinkable apparently. No such product there at the pharmacy. I mentioned that I needed something high in ethanol content. He took me out to the aisle to show me compound rubbing alcohol which was 95% ethanol. It worked like a charm. Isopropyl rubbing alcohol or nail polish remover does not work, I tried that.

To clean up the ports after the grinding and lapping, I used solvent and a tooth brush. I bought a hand sprayer jug at the pesticide department at the hardware store. You can pump it up and pressurize the contents, whatever you decide to put in there. I put a litre of solvent in there and pumped it up good. It sprayed out and worked really well. I pulled all the valves first, and laid sheets of tinfoil over the tappets. Sprayed lots of solvent down from the top, and scrubbed. Wiped everything up, nice and clean. Rinsed it several times. It all drained down on a couple of absorbent pads on the floor under the area. Clean up was a snap when I rolled up the pads and tied up in a garbage bag to dispose. 

At this point I am inserting springs, spring end covers and retainers. Again, quite a little battle to get everything back in. You pretty well need the patience of a saint to do this job. Once I get all the valves & springs reassembled, I am going to attempt to try and test the valve seal-ability. With the engine in the car, rolling over the block to put kerosene in the ports to test for leakage is out. Pulling a vacuum through the valve ports seems impossible with open unsealed valve guides. Not sure what I am going to do. One idea a friend had is to build a small dam around the valves area on top of the block. Maybe use playdough or something. Pinch a small wall of playdough all the way around 2 valves at one piston. Tall enough to pour some kerosene on top of the valves and create a small pool so it will sit there. Then inspect for leakage in through the valve ports in the side of the block. Kind of silly, but will it work? Maybe. I am open to other suggestions. I'd rather not install the head and test for compression or fill chamber with compressed air. Then pull it all apart again if a valve is not sealing.

Thanks in advance. Keith 

[keithb7]

8 hours ago, keithb7 said:

.

 

Edited June 30, 2017 by keithb7

[knuckleharley]

11 hours ago, keithb7 said:

 

Some notes: The blue dye I used to cut in the valve seats, and lap the valves. It reads on the bottle, "to remove use denatured alcohol". It turns out thats not an easy find up here in Canada. Somewhere I read someone said to ask for it at the pharmacist, they'd have it behind the counter. Well no they don't, but the pharmacist was able to help me. Denatured alcohol means it undrinkable apparently. No such product there at the pharmacy. I mentioned that I needed something high in ethanol content. He took me out to the aisle to show me compound rubbing alcohol which was 95% ethanol. It worked like a charm. Isopropyl rubbing alcohol or nail polish remover does not work, I tried that.

 

I'm guessing the first time the engine fired under compression the blue dye would disappear down the exhaust pipe.

[keithb7]

9 out of 12 valves are sealed tight. 3 others I need to remove and spend some more time lapping. First time doing this task, I'm ok with that.  I'm getting there.

 

Edited July 1, 2017 by keithb7

[casper50]

progress how ever slow is still progress. Hang in there.  Always worth doing the job right.

[40desoto]

I have my 265 out of my car and plan on pulling the valves as well. Can you visualy determine if the valves seats need grinding or just lapping?  

 

Edited July 1, 2017 by 40desoto

[keithb7]

8 hours ago, 40desoto said:

I have my 265 out of my car and plan on pulling the valves as well. Can you visualy determine if the valves seats need grinding or just lapping?  

 

Based on my experience, a wet/dry compression test is a good start. Then pull head if needed, inspect valve seats where possible. Pull valves for a further inspection. Consider lapping compound to be a final polish. Deeper pitting in in the seat or valve surface area leads to a further grind. If you are unsure, you may want to start by lapping a few valves and looking at the 2 surfaces to see how they align. How wide is the groove on the valve face after some lapping? The information post above here, and the illustrations were helpful to me.

 

In my case, with a bent valve and another that was not seating, plus valve wear, it seemed clear to me that all new valves would be a good solution. I then did not have to grind the valves. With labor prices today at a machine shop, it made little sense to me to have the valves re-cut.

[40desoto]

1 hour ago, keithb7 said:

Based on my experience, a wet/dry compression test is a good start. Then pull head if needed, inspect valve seats where possible. Pull valves for a further inspection. Consider lapping compound to be a final polish. Deeper pitting in in the seat or valve surface area leads to a further grind. If you are unsure, you may want to start by lapping a few valves and looking at the 2 surfaces to see how they align. How wide is the groove on the valve face after some lapping? The information post above here, and the illustrations were helpful to me.

 

In my case, with a bent valve and another that was not seating, plus valve wear, it seemed clear to me that all new valves would be a good solution. I then did not have to grind the valves. With labor prices today at a machine shop, it made little sense to me to have the valves re-cut.

Thank you for the information. I had low compression on cylinders 2,3,4 and it didn't appear to be the rings.  I'm hoping it was the headgasket, even though there was no visual evidence in the gasket that it was leaking. I got the head resurfaced and figured while it's open might as well lap the valves. 

Once I do this I will install the valves and head and  back on and do a compression test again.

Keith, thanks for documenting all your steps it's been very helpful to me.

[keithb7]

@40desoto is the engine still in your car? I would refrain from re-installing the head, before testing for valve sealing. The playdough dam mentioned works but is not necessary. 

I found that a large syringe, filled with kerosene worked well. Make sure valves are completely closed tight with springs installed. Back off the tappet adjustments. With valves fully closed, wiggle tappet up and down to to ensure its not in contact with valve stem. Drinble a good amount of kerosene around the valve edge where it meets the block. Keep some paper towel in place to stop any kerosene from flowing into the adjacent valve that shares the same port. It does not take long to see the results. Within a few moments you'll see kerosene flow down into the port if the valve is leaky. 

Having the inner fender window removed, and wheel off so you can look into the port, is a big help here. 

My understanding is once the head is torqued down, the metal gasket has done it's job, once. Removing the head again to lap valves again, in my opinion means a new head gasket. This why I prefer to ensure valve sealability before I re-install the head. 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited July 2, 2017 by keithb7

[Plymouthy Adams]

properly hand lapped valves and correct tappet valve adjustment there is Zero need to test for leak with kerosene....

[40desoto]

Thanks. Yes, the engine is out of the car. I will do as much as possible to ensure proper seating before I install the head.  The gasket is only about $30 and the local parts store.  

Another idea was to not touch the valves at all, reinstall my recently resurfaced head with  new gasket and check the compressions. If not good remove the head and then work on the valves.  What help me back from going this route was that I read that a head can be warped upon installing and removing the head from the block?  

This is what got me thinking of doing the valve work before installing the head.

Wonder if this is true if I'm not going to run the engine hot

This is the first time I do this type of work so I'm learning and most important need to learn to be patient and do things right the first time.

 

Thanks. 

[keithb7]

3 minutes ago, Plymouthy Adams said:

properly hand lapped valves and correct tappet valve adjustment there is Zero need to test for leak with kerosene....

I believe that, for someone with plenty of experience. For a first timer, I recommend testing for leaks. 

[Plymouthy Adams]

ounce of prevention..you said you were going  to hand lap the valve.....why sell yourself short...based on your more recent post...I see indecision to follow through with proper technique...I withdraw my comment above as I am now skeptical of work to be done.....

[40desoto]

2 hours ago, Plymouthy Adams said:

ounce of prevention..you said you were going  to hand lap the valve.....why sell yourself short...based on your more recent post...I see indecision to follow through with proper technique...I withdraw my comment above as I am now skeptical of work to be done.....

No need to withdraw, I already read your comment and truly appreciate your opinion and that of all other subject matter experts on this site.  Like I stated before I am no expert and just learning. I'm sure everyone learned one way or another.  

I joined this site and plenty others to learn and possible one day provide feedback and  knowledge to others. Along the way I have also learned to appreciate the craftsmanship of this and other skilled trades. I'm pretty much more of a custom body and paint guy.   I am on other more paint specific sites and love to share my advise to other.  If they chose to follow the advise or not its ultimately up to them.  I personally love sharing that knowledge to other eager do-it-yourselves because one thing we must all ultimately agree on is that one day we will not be on this planet. In my opinion, it will be nice to know that the DIY hobby, whether its car related or not, will still live on through generations. 

 

Edited July 1, 2017 by 40desoto