Time for an overhaul...

[thebeebe5]

4 hours ago, Cpt.Fred said:

that's true, but i think it is a very narrow boss to drill the 2 holes in, like you did on your engine... don't know if i want to try to pull that off.

plus we're running equal lenght tube headers, that take away lots of space. it's like a snake's nest on that side.

but i haven't really decided yet, maybe i'll just measure some more and then go straight to copying your method :-)

 

good one on the gear! the one i took out of mine is completely shot.

Yeah, there's a lot of room in there until... LOL. I'll be sneaking a turbo in there somewhere, and we arent going to mount the oil filter or plumb any exhaust until the motor is back in the car just to be sure of where we'll have the room. 

 

I will say (if you drill the pump boss) angle the entry holes away from each other slightly so the fittings will clear each other.  The 1/2" fittings we used should be plenty big as they match the crossover tube "pump out" oil galley.  The fitting nearest the block has enough room to clear the block without issue, and Summit makes nice 90° fittings that will keep the tubing low on the block and away from exhaust and valve covers.  The second fitting is going to touch the first slightly because I didn't angle quite enough, so I'll probably have to install the first and clearance the nut a bit to allow for tightening the outer fitting. I started out drilling 3/8" fittings which were fine, but really didn't like the ID of that smaller fitting.  The 1/2" fittings were the way to go but I'll have to "make 'em work". 

[thebeebe5]

Took today off my "real" job to try to make some headway.   Only having Saturday to work has made this a rather extended project.  My last motor (a 390 for my '67F250) was assembled at home in the garage and I had a lot more time to wrench on it...

 

I never could get the oil pickup cleaned to my satusfaction. Every time I'd rinse and dry it out it would still deposit fine, powdery crud when tapped on the bench.   Sourced an NOS unit from Ebay.  It's rinsed and ready to install.

 

 

AND I have wanted to degree the cam if for no other reason than practice.  I don't get to do it every day, and the process is good for me to go over periodically.  Since I don't have a cam card to compare it to I'm simply checking events on the cam and comparing it to "normal" event times for cams in general.  And I learned some interesting things about this cam.  Compared to my big block, the duration of this cam is rather short.   Lift is rather unimpressive (being a '37) and I found with valves adjusted to cold spec that intake lift was 0.315" and exhaust 0.309"-0.310".  (Yawn...) 

 

This cam profile is dead square with duration and lift of both lobes being identical.   Duration is 188°.  LSA is 104° which seemed really narrow to me, but Brian explained with such mild lift they're bound to be narrow.  Or seem narrow anyways.   There's plenty of LSA and 8° of overlap to help draw fuel into the cylinder as the exhaust is closing and intake is opening.  If I understood it better I'd be happy to explain or answer questions, but again the process is not completely familiar and I do not claim to be an expert.   Simply a student of finer points of building engines.  Regardless, it's all interesting. 

 

Here are a few pictures of some "events".  Intake and exhaust opening and closing were both measured at 0.050" lift.   I had to make an adapter to afix the degree wheel to my crank snout as the hole was considerably smaller than the crank pulley nut and I did not want to open the hole in the new degree wheel.  Ended up making the adapter twice because I didn’t take into account that the timing pointer on the timing cover was going to contact the back of the wheel.   No good.   I tried to simply make a spacer, but that didn't leave enough of the adapter to catch enough of the threads in the crank snout to hold the whole assembly tight and still throughout the process.  Definitely don't want that wheel to spin and lose your zero while the process is ongoing.  Makes it rather difficult. 

 

 

 

 

Wheel installed. TDC identified and marked.

 

Ready to start!

 

Intake opening at 23° ATDC

 

Intake closing at 30° ABDC.  Actually found the wheel had moved about 1.5° after going through the process and had to reset TDC.  This was the only intake closing" pic I took, but it illustrates the point about making sure the wheel stays still!! 

 

Exhaust opening at 21° BBDC

 

And closing at 12° BTDC.

 

Now I know a bit more about my cam profile!   

Edited December 24, 2021 by thebeebe5
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[thebeebe5]

Getting closer.  Definitely ready to be driving it and not just working on it....  Oil pan still needs a bung welded in for turbo oil return, and we want a turbo in hand before installing it so we get the location right.  Welded 1/8" x 3/4" strap to the back of the side covers because I hated how easily they bent in when trying to tighten them.  Head is on.   Oil pump installed. Water pump assembled, but I'll leave it off to paint the motor first, then install once it's been painted (separately).  

[Dodgeb4ya]

Did you surface the manifolds?

No washers needed under the head stud nuts?

Edited April 1, 2018 by Dodgeb4ya

[thebeebe5]

13 hours ago, Dodgeb4ya said:

Did you surface the manifolds?

No washers needed under the head stud nuts?

Not yet.  Don't know if they need it. Still a lot more to do.  Carb is apart. Generator and starter are apart.  Only thing completely done is the transmission.   But everything else is getting there. 

Didn't have washers when I took it apart.  Put it back the same way. 

Edited April 1, 2018 by thebeebe5

[Dodgeb4ya]

I looked up the cylinder head washer info in the parts books.

I guess Plymouth to save money in the "Low priced Field" didn't use the washers with studs from 1929-39 on their heads...

All other models.. DeSoto, Dodge and Chrysler did use washers with studs on the heads of all engines from 1927-42!. Both on Aluminum and cast iron heads.

Odd!

[thebeebe5]

7 minutes ago, Dodgeb4ya said:

I looked up the cylinder head washer info in the parts books.

I guess Plymouth to save money in the "Low priced Field" didn't use the washers with studs from 1929-39 on their heads...

All other models.. DeSoto, Dodge and Chrysler did use washers with studs on the heads of all engines from 1927-42!. Both on Aluminum and cast iron heads.

Odd!

 

Good to know!  

 

This is the first and only mopar flathead I've seen so I wouldn't have known. I wondered about washers, but figured it didn't have head gasket issues prior so figured I'd put it back the way it came to me. Looked at flatheads in general online and see some with, some without. 

 

Edit:   If I add washers I wonder how much the value of the car would go up...  

Edited April 1, 2018 by thebeebe5

[Dodgeb4ya]

It might be a wash.... er...............maybe not

[Niel Hoback]

There's a hole in that theory.

[55 Fargo]

On 3/31/2018 at 11:47 PM, Dodgeb4ya said:

Did you surface the manifolds?

No washers needed under the head stud nuts?

A very good idea now when all apart. 

Infact get rid if the exhaust manifolds and get Langdon headers...lol Or will not be needed if this is going to be forced induction via turbo

Edited April 3, 2018 by 55 Fargo Spitfire

[thebeebe5]

2 hours ago, 55 Fargo Spitfire said:

A very good idea now when all apart. 

Infact get rid if the exhaust manifolds and get Langdon headers...lol Or will not be needed if this is going to be forced induction via turbo

 

Keeping the original intake and non original exhaust.  If I were going the custom exhaust route I'd build a set myself. Nothing wrong with Langdon's, but that's one of the things we do here with regularity. 

Everything is being reconditioned while apart, that's for sure. 

Edited April 3, 2018 by thebeebe5

[thebeebe5]

Today's efforts included (but were not limited to) rebuilding the starter with a new clutch and top switch.  It's been painted and waiting for a while.  Finally done.

 

 

 

 

Disassembling the generator to find out why one of the field coils is grounded  (rats...), knocking a Speedy Sleeve onto the balancer,

 

 

cleaning and stripping the original (I think) breather cap,

 

 

 

and cutting o-ring grooves in the throttle shaft for the BBR-1.   If a turbo gets added (as planned) I don't want those fuel filled gasses eeking out past the shaft, and if not, how can it hurt...?  

 

 

 

 

Also fixed a broken screw that anchored a part of a neck attachement on my uncle's banjo, just for fun. 

 

 

[Andydodge]

Beebe...lots of good info tho' I'm curious why you appear to be using the original style 2 ear impeller water pump.....the  new pumps that are available use a multi finned round style impeller with a proper bearing and seal rather than the bushed arrangement that I think that old style pump would use.......I think the new pumps would still bolt on o/k.........andyd. 

[thebeebe5]

1 hour ago, Andydodge said:

Beebe...lots of good info tho' I'm curious why you appear to be using the original style 2 ear impeller water pump.....the  new pumps that are available use a multi finned round style impeller with a proper bearing and seal rather than the bushed arrangement that I think that old style pump would use.......I think the new pumps would still bolt on o/k.........andyd. 

The pump that came on the car was rebuilt at Kellogg Automotive way south of me. I took it to them because of their reputation for quality work. Didn't want a Chinee re-pop pump since the pump I had was a genuine Mopar unit. They installed a sealed bearing and eliminated the bushing and replaced the old impeller with a NOS Chrysler unit.  I just left it in their hands and they say it will be up to the task of cooling this motor in the Arizona heat.  

 

All I can do is give it a try and see how it works.  

[Andydodge]

Beebe.....that answers the question......I can remember when i first got my Dodge in 1971 putting a rebuild kit in the original pump and having to do battle with the seal and fibre washer they had and breaking the fibre ears off it a couple of times........learnt to hate those original pumps............when I got the 41 Plymouth in 2007 as an older restoration the original pump leaked like a sieve and I replaced it with a new one which may or may not have come from China but was a sealed bearing and new style impeller and didn't give any problems for the 6yrs I had the car.........andyd   

[Young Ed]

You could probably setup a service for cutting those Oring grooves. Lots of carbs with a little slop in those bushings/shaft. 

[thebeebe5]

1 hour ago, Young Ed said:

You could probably setup a service for cutting those Oring grooves. Lots of carbs with a little slop in those bushings/shaft. 

 

Well, I probably could.  I had to order a minimum of 100 o-rings...  

 

This one had some slop. In fact, it was the worst of two that I had in hand, and I figured to try it as my guinea pig.   Worked out fine, and I'll save the better shaft for another day. 

 

[Cpt.Fred]

Jim, just like Andy i just stumbled upon the picture of your water pump rotor.

 

i remembered, a guy i know from switzerland  had cooling trouble on a mopar flathead, took the coolant pump apart,

found one of those 2 blade rotors like yours in it and then decided to replace the pump with one of these models, like i have on the bench right here:

 

 

afterwards he said he had a better cooling and more coolant flow, if i remember correctly.

i have both chinese and oem pumps with the multi finned rotors, both have been working fine.

maybe you want to consider a swap as well, regarding your turbo plans and everything...

but hey, if the shop said it would be up to the task. hope he knew abouth the turbo

 

i went for the 3/8" oil fitting on my oil filter swap and decided to run the line around to main oil gallery, so i did not have to drill the pump boss twice.

looks good so far.

 

can't wait until you fire yours up for the first time, keep up the great work!

 

Fred

Edited April 19, 2018 by Cpt.Fred

[Cpt.Fred]

also, great work with the o-ring butterfly shafts!

 

what's the story with the speedy sleeve and the balancer?

[thebeebe5]

10 hours ago, Cpt.Fred said:

Jim, just like Andy i just stumbled upon the picture of your water pump rotor.

 

i remembered, a guy i know from switzerland  had cooling trouble on a mopar flathead, took the coolant pump apart,

found one of those 2 blade rotors like yours in it and then decided to replace the pump with one of these models, like i have on the bench right here:

 

 

afterwards he said he had a better cooling and more coolant flow, if i remember correctly.

i have both chinese and oem pumps with the multi finned rotors, both have been working fine.

maybe you want to consider a swap as well, regarding your turbo plans and everything...

but hey, if the shop said it would be up to the task. hope he knew abouth the turbo

 

i went for the 3/8" oil fitting on my oil filter swap and decided to run the line around to main oil gallery, so i did not have to drill the pump boss twice.

looks good so far.

 

can't wait until you fire yours up for the first time, keep up the great work!

 

Fred

 

9 hours ago, Cpt.Fred said:

also, great work with the o-ring butterfly shafts!

 

what's the story with the speedy sleeve and the balancer?

As far as the pump goes, if it doesn't get the job done I'll address it. If anything I'll have the original Mopar pump fitted with a different impeller.   I didn't even know something else was available.  

 

Regarding the 3/8" fittings, the ID was quite a bit smaller than the pick up tubes when I started that route, and once realized I decided to upsize.  Also, if memory serves, the oil galley plugs on the side of the motor are only 1/8" NPT.  And I don't think the big ones at either end of the block are accessible when the motor and trans are installed.  Or are they???  I can't recall, and haven't tried the bellhousing on the motor to check....

 

I only used a speedysleeve because there was a fair amount of wear from the old rope or leather (or whatever material the old seal was made of).  Probably just from contaminants on the seal, but wear none the less.  Didn't want to be pulling it to fix a leak after getting the car on the road. 

[thebeebe5]

So, last weekend started getting sick.  Didn't get a whole lot done but clean and paint bits and pieces, but did manage to reassemble the generator after having the field coils rechecked by Denny at Copperstate Alternator and Starter in PHOENIX.  He sold me proper brushes (the ones in it were way too small) and a sealed bearing and other parts, then tested it for me the first time I reassembled it.  He found the field coils were "grounded". I hate failing....    But everything is a learning opportunity, right?    That was months ago.  Now that the motor is pretty much done I went back to the generator, disassembled and carried the case over to him.  He checked the coils and found there was no ground.  His recommendation was to make sure the assembly screw passed behind the wire, rather than over top of it (meaning not allow the wire to be parked between the screw and case).  Said just make sure there's no contact with the armature and it should be fine.  He also said that when they assemble these old generators they use heat shrink tubing to help avoid the wire contacting the screw grounding the coils which was likely my problem.  

 

Thought I'd pass that tip along in case it can help someone else.  

 

 

 

 

Today I'm attempting to reassemble the carburetor.  It's a 439 BBR-1.  Got a kit from carbkitsourcedotcom.  First obstacle?  The insulator gaskets (all three different sets) are too large.   Everything else looks like it will fit though, so I'll make my own.  

Any tips or tricks would be well received!!

 

[Plymouthy Adams]

exacto knife, nice gasket punch set and a sharp set of small scissors, I like the stainless scissors that is surplus medical as they are sharp, nimble and can cut rear nice small inner circles

[thebeebe5]

43 minutes ago, Plymouthy Adams said:

exacto knife, nice gasket punch set and a sharp set of small scissors, I like the stainless scissors that is surplus medical as they are sharp, nimble and can cut rear nice small inner circles

WELL, I didn't have any of those things 

So I improvised.  I had tin snips so I made an exact duplicate of an X-Acto knife 

And I have a lathe handy and lots of scrap, so I made punches.  Punched one hole too close to the edge, so I had to make another gasket.  Hand tightened screws with one gasket under the insulator and trimmed the inner to flush.  Sanded the spacer on a block to get it straight (had done the carb and base months ago already) and put it all together.  

Hope it's good enough.  

 

 

[Plymouthy Adams]

On ‎4‎/‎21‎/‎2018 at 3:43 PM, thebeebe5 said:

WELL, I didn't have any of those things 

So I improvised.  I had tin snips so I made an exact duplicate of an X-Acto knife 

And I have a lathe handy and lots of scrap, so I made punches.  Punched one hole too close to the edge, so I had to make another gasket.  Hand tightened screws with one gasket under the insulator and trimmed the inner to flush.  Sanded the spacer on a block to get it straight (had done the carb and base months ago already) and put it all together.  

Hope it's good enough.  

 

 

 

 

Adapt...Improvise...Overcome....make America beautiful by junking a chebbie...

[thebeebe5]

Picked up the turbo today so we can mock up and locate oil return to pan prior to final oil pan install and engine paint.  It's a Garrett .48 with a "B" case compressor side (smallest Turbo Direct makes for a T3 application, and it is a custom size, so of course more $$...). Will use a separate waste gate and a 5psi spring.