Lockwashers?

[40plyguy]

 I noticed while disassembling the flathead eng from my 40 Plymouth the extensive use of lockwashers. Must have been cutting edge back then. Anyway, noticed lockwashers on the main and rod bearing caps. 2 of the main bearing cap bolts had cracked lockwashers.  The question is when reassembling the engine use loctite or replace the lockwashers?  Some years back while working for a fleet there was a problem with steer axle u-bolts loosening up. The lockwashers were found to be cracking and would fall out. Reassembling without the lockwashers took care of the problem. We didn't even put loctite on the threads, just a washer and the nut.

[casper50]

I figure if it has lasted this long it was good enough.  I put mine back the way it came.  

[knuckleharley]

1 hour ago, 40plyguy said:

 I noticed while disassembling the flathead eng from my 40 Plymouth the extensive use of lockwashers. Must have been cutting edge back then. Anyway, noticed lockwashers on the main and rod bearing caps. 2 of the main bearing cap bolts had cracked lockwashers.  The question is when reassembling the engine use loctite or replace the lockwashers?  Some years back while working for a fleet there was a problem with steer axle u-bolts loosening up. The lockwashers were found to be cracking and would fall out. Reassembling without the lockwashers took care of the problem. We didn't even put loctite on the threads, just a washer and the nut.

Two words describe that problem,"Chinese Lockwashers".

[Jerry Roberts]

There have been some posts in the past on those lock washers , it seems that they are a special size and hard to find . A search of the forum might turn up some more information . 

[classiccarjack]

I have found broken lock washers through the years also.  And it's a problem on the later engines too.  I have not experienced any engine failure's due to a broken lock washer as of yet.  Hmmmm. You have brought up an amazing subject here.

[Andydodge]

Knuckle, to be fair to the Chinese I doubt wether they were selling let alone making these lock washers back then......lol.......I think that they are a genuine US Mopar product but I agree they are an unusual size, appearing to be made specifically to sit inside the machined recessed spot on the big end  and main bearing cap........I'd try a specialised fastener retailer, they must be around somewhere but as you mention, now would be the time to insist on a high quality, high tensile product.........lol..............andyd 

[knuckleharley]

1 hour ago, Andydodge said:

Knuckle, to be fair to the Chinese I doubt wether they were selling let alone making these lock washers back then......lol.......I think that they are a genuine US Mopar product but I agree they are an unusual size, appearing to be made specifically to sit inside the machined recessed spot on the big end  and main bearing cap........I'd try a specialised fastener retailer, they must be around somewhere but as you mention, now would be the time to insist on a high quality, high tensile product.........lol..............andyd 

Remember that passenger airliner that went down in the marsh in Florida 10-15  years ago,where everyone died? The investigation discovered the cause of the crash was the bolts holding the engines to the airframe broke and the engines fell off. These were supposed to be Grade 8 bolts and nuts,and the aircraft had recently had the engines replaced. The FAA investigated and discovered the bolts and nuts in the bins at the facility that had replaced the engines were marked as being Grade 8,but were actually cheap Chinese hardware store piss-poor quality Chinese bolts,and that's why they snapped and the engines fell off.

I have no idea who was a business partner with the Chinese that brought those bogus bolts into the country,but it was somebody powerful because ALL discussion about Chinese hardware was shut down almost instantly,and AFAIK,was never mentioned again.

BTW,If you go to a chain hardware store,all the nuts and bolt you buy today were made in China.

[classiccarjack]

I have a horrible habit of keeping almost every bolt I find in my old cars.  Very seldom need to leave the house to go buy hardware.  Now I feel good about my hording ways....  LOL

[squirebill]

My '49 Plymouth parts book lists this big end conn rod lock washer as  .387 I.D. X 17/32 O.D. X  5/64 thk.  My Machinery's Handbook 25 has a table for American National Standard Hi-Collar Helical Spring Lock Washers (ANSI/ASME 18.21.1-1990) and for 3/8 size it would have .385 ID max.  X  .550 OD. max.  X  0.125 thick. These are about .020 Larger in the OD and almost .050 thicker but may work as replacements.  In my past life we would use these Hi-collar washers under the smaller round heads of socket head cap screws (Allen or Unbrako).    

[knuckleharley]

1 hour ago, squirebill said:

My '49 Plymouth parts book lists this big end conn rod lock washer as  .387 I.D. X 17/32 O.D. X  5/64 thk.  My Machinery's Handbook 25 has a table for American National Standard Hi-Collar Helical Spring Lock Washers (ANSI/ASME 18.21.1-1990) and for 3/8 size it would have .385 ID max.  X  .550 OD. max.  X  0.125 thick. These are about .020 Larger in the OD and almost .050 thicker but may work as replacements.  In my past life we would use these Hi-collar washers under the smaller round heads of socket head cap screws (Allen or Unbrako).    

I miss my Machinery handbook. I lent it to a friend about 15  years ago who had somebody give him a nice used lathe,and even taught him  a little about how to use the lathe. Now he has a couple more lathes and a milling machine,and still has my book. I just gave up trying to get it back from him about 10 years ago. He had gotten oil on it on some pages and said he couldn't give it back like that and was going to buy me a new one. It still hasn't happened,and now I am short a Machinist Handbook and 1 friend.

[Plymouthy Adams]

Lending items can costs you more than first anticipated.  When I bought my lathe a few years back I went looking for a good machinist handbook.  I did not find it over night but within a couple weeks.  Went to the local flea market and there it sat on a table for 8.00.  I also made a small list of things I wanted as accessories.  Some I ordered from e-bay, many I found at the swap meets or again at the flea market.  All was for a super fair price....sorry you lost your book, but kicking a few bushes may prove worthwhile to get a replacement. 

[DrDoctor]

knuckleharley ,

   Been there—done that . . .

[knuckleharley]

1 hour ago, Plymouthy Adams said:

Lending items can costs you more than first anticipated.  When I bought my lathe a few years back I went looking for a good machinist handbook.  I did not find it over night but within a couple weeks.  Went to the local flea market and there it sat on a table for 8.00.  I also made a small list of things I wanted as accessories.  Some I ordered from e-bay, many I found at the swap meets or again at the flea market.  All was for a super fair price....sorry you lost your book, but kicking a few bushes may prove worthwhile to get a replacement. 

I'm sorry I lost the book too,but I am sorrier I lost the friend. If you can't trust a friend with something that simple,you can't trust them period,and they are not your friend.

The worse part about it is he is wealthy. He has enough money to buy a new lathe and new milliing machine,and he can't afford to buy me a replacement book he wouldn't even of known about if I hadn't lent him mine?

[Don Coatney]

I also loaned my machinist handbook to what I thought was a friend. He must be a slow reader as the book has been gone for years.

[knuckleharley]

Guys,never fear! This discussion has me missing my old copy,so I went to Abe Books to look for a replacement,and found a new one!

I didn't want a beatup and torn copy,so I used  the "highest price" filter so I wouldn't have to stumble through pages of junk books.

Don't forget to pay the $3.99 for shipping.

 

https://www.abebooks.com/servlet/BookDetailsPL?bi=14227356649&searchurl=sortby%3D1%26tn%3Dmachinist%2Bhandbook

 

Never fear,there are cheaper nice versions available. I just bought a very nice used 26th edition (2000) for $43 off of abe's.

Edited April 11, 2017 by knuckleharley

[Plymouthy Adams]

very good..it is only money and hopefully a lesson learned...only took 15 years.....  be sure to keep this one on a leash...

[knuckleharley]

9 minutes ago, Plymouthy Adams said:

very good..it is only money and hopefully a lesson learned...only took 15 years.....  be sure to keep this one on a leash...

Oh,yeah! Don't worry about that. I might call him and tell him I have the 2000 edition now,and tell him that since I have the book again and have had eye surgery so I can see,when is he going to give me that spare lathe he never uses that he promised to me. It's a small south bend with a 10 or 12 inch swing and 36 inches between centers. A mutual friend of ours gave it to him in his will,but this guy had already bought a larger one by then and the south bend just sits unused in his shop.

 Chances are I will never hear from him again.

[Plymouthy Adams]

It is a Southbend 9 x 36 that I bought, very well heeled unit on a gunsmiths cabinet with the collet attachment...an excellent about the house lathe..has saved the say on numerous occasions...good luck on getting that from him...as he never gave you your own book back..I would not hold my breath on any other promise

[DrDoctor]

   Fair-weather friends—with “friends” like that, one doesn’t need enemies. I’ve had my share of them, too, and I’ve learned (only recently, I might add . . .) that their expectations are NOT my obligations. That’s now my mantra, and the dipstick in question hasn’t talked to me in almost a year—life is indeed good!!!

[Flatie46]

I like good books and manuals. I know you can find quite a bit of info on the internet but I like the feel of a book for some reason. I seem to retain the info from a book better for some reason. The problem I have is I will loan a book to someone but forget who I loaned it to. If it's a good book, the person I loaned it to will forget to bring it back.

[knuckleharley]

11 minutes ago, Flatie46 said:

I like good books and manuals. I know you can find quite a bit of info on the internet but I like the feel of a book for some reason. I seem to retain the info from a book better for some reason. The problem I have is I will loan a book to someone but forget who I loaned it to. If it's a good book, the person I loaned it to will forget to bring it back.

I've got a few books that I have had to replace that I no longer lend to anyone. One is a book written by a friend of mine I ran a few missions with in VN that won the Medal of Honor. I never lend the one he autographed with a personal message (he died a few years ago) ,but twice I have loaned another identical book without the autograph to people,and instead of returning it,they lent it to someone who lent it to someone,who etc,etc,etc. I replaced the second one with a paperback,and for some reason that one always gets returned.

Another is a fictional book by Thomas Perry titled "The Butchers Boy",about a independent hit man. Everybody that reads that one loves it. I now have a hardcover copy I keep,and a paperback I lend to people. The paperback always finds it's way home. Given the way my memory works these days,it won't be long before that is the only book I will ever need. I can just keep reading it over and over every week,and every week it will be new to me.

Almost all the books I buy these days are Kindle books,so this is no longer a problem.

I do prefer actual books for technical matters,though Maybe it's a reflection on my age and what I grew up using,but I seem to absorb information from a book better than from a print-out,even if it is the same information.

Edited April 12, 2017 by knuckleharley

[classiccarjack]

I wanna Lathe!!!!  

When I retired my Restoration business, I gave up my Mill.  I hope to get my new facility built on my property within the next 5 years.  Then I will buy a Smithy(their reasonably priced), then if I need anything larger I will make changes.  I seldom need much, usually small stuff that I dream up.  Spacers, bushings, and simple replacement parts are all that I have ever needed.  In fact, the last thing I made was a set of bronze thrust washers for my Harley Davidson Flywheels.  I did it mostly because I am a cheap ass and refuse to pay Harley $1000 for a set of Flywheels.  

I better get back to work here...  I will come back later. 

[40plyguy]

I prefer books too. I grew up that way as well  If I needed to know something, I'd search for the answer in books.I find it easier many times to page through a book than search on the web.  Used to love spending time at the library. Were I much younger I might see it differently. Anyway the internet has it's place too. Without the net we couldn't share our interests as we do on this site

[DrDoctor]

knuckleharley,

   Not to interrupt, nor to alter the topic at hand, but I keep reading your comment above about the Chinese fasteners on the domestic passenger jet that went down in Florida (in the swamps, if I remember)—when I need quality fasteners, etc, I go to the local Catapillar dealer. I’ve had their hardware on the front suspension of a car for way-north of 40 years, without a single failure. It’s an alternate source that I think maybe overlooked. Like a lot of folks, I’m not comfortable buying grade-8 hardware from Lowes, Home Depot, etc., because I’m not convinced that it’s really quality hardware. Just being paranoid, I know, but it’s the paranoia that can sometimes protect a person.

[dpollo]

If you like books with an authentic technical flavor I would like to recommend a book which in many ways influenced what I chose to do. (or perhaps how I did it)

It is Nevil Shute's last novel ,  Trustee from the Toolroom     Shute was in fact an aeronautical engineer  so whenever his novels lean toward things mechanical, there is not much room for criticism.  No Highway is another which deals with defective airframe design.