8srnad8 Posted January 9, 2017 Report Posted January 9, 2017 1949 Plymouth Special Deluxe. No room to get to the top starter bolt! Quote
knuckleharley Posted January 9, 2017 Report Posted January 9, 2017 Not personally familiar with that procedure specific to a 49 Plymouth,but you will probably need to buy a "starter wrench". That's a box wrench that looks like the letter "C",with one end being 9/16 and the other end 5/8. You also need patience. Lots of patience. Quote
William Davey Posted January 9, 2017 Report Posted January 9, 2017 sometimes you can reach the top bolt with a looooooong extension and a wobble-socket. 1 Quote
captden29 Posted January 9, 2017 Report Posted January 9, 2017 many of us have a collection of old wrenches we never use. if you have that, look thru them for the one that is the size and has a strange bend. it is the one you will be glad you have. other wise, get the "c" wrench mentioned above. I had an old wrench that was able to do the job. patience is needed as it can only be turned slowly even with the right wrench. capt den Quote
knuckleharley Posted January 9, 2017 Report Posted January 9, 2017 (edited) 46 minutes ago, William Davey said: sometimes you can reach the top bolt with a looooooong extension and a wobble-socket. That usually works good once you break the top bolt loose and back it off enough it's each to "find" with a socket. It also works well when you are putting the starter back in the car. Put the bolt though the top bolt hole,and then put the socket and extension on the bolt head while allowing the end of the starter to hang down a bit. Makes it real easy to get the top bolt threaded while it's hanging down a little. It definitely words best with a air-ratchet,though. Edited January 9, 2017 by knuckleharley Quote
8srnad8 Posted January 9, 2017 Author Report Posted January 9, 2017 1 hour ago, knuckleharley said: Not personally familiar with that procedure specific to a 49 Plymouth,but you will probably need to buy a "starter wrench". That's a box wrench that looks like the letter "C",with one end being 9/16 and the other end 5/8. You also need patience. Lots of patience. I may need to try that--it will certainly need to be a 12 point for sure. 3/8" drive wobble socket, even shallow, doesn't have enough room, let alone 1/2" drive probably needed to loosen. Even old set of offset wrenches I have from our garage in the 50-60's not working. this may be a 12 V starter, not sure as I just bought this car with a 12V "conversion" though still a generator. has fender mounted solenoid, so I'm not sure if they left the 6V started for me to deal with (starter drive doesn't stay engaged long enough) or what I am dealing with, along with heater fan inop and some other electrical issues. At first I liked the idea of a 12V, but now not so sure. Thanks for your help; I guess I could be called shovelharley as I'm 64 but never had the pleasure or money to own a knuckle! Also, my first Mopar--always been GM. Quote
8srnad8 Posted January 9, 2017 Author Report Posted January 9, 2017 18 minutes ago, captden29 said: many of us have a collection of old wrenches we never use. if you have that, look thru them for the one that is the size and has a strange bend. it is the one you will be glad you have. other wise, get the "c" wrench mentioned above. I had an old wrench that was able to do the job. patience is needed as it can only be turned slowly even with the right wrench. capt den I have old wrenches from our family garage back to the 50's---but no luck, thanks! I know the "C" wrench you guys speak of and probably had one at one time--can't find it now. Of course I think I must need to buy more tools! :o) thanks again. Dan Quote
Plymouthy Adams Posted January 9, 2017 Report Posted January 9, 2017 have you tried a shallow one piece universal and socket combo in 12 point...they offer more flex and also a bit more ease of access... Quote
8srnad8 Posted January 9, 2017 Author Report Posted January 9, 2017 2 minutes ago, Plymouthy Adams said: have you tried a shallow one piece universal and socket combo in 12 point...they offer more flex and also a bit more ease of access... Yes sir, as above, but I may have given up too easily on it. I was afraid to round the bolt head as I wasn't getting a good flush bite. Quote
Plymouthy Adams Posted January 9, 2017 Report Posted January 9, 2017 just reread the thread...yes, try to loosen it first with a wrench even if you have to 'inchy' wrench it to break it loose..then see if you can get a bite on it..frustrating I know Quote
Don Coatney Posted January 9, 2017 Report Posted January 9, 2017 This might or might not help. A long extension comes in handy. 2 Quote
knuckleharley Posted January 9, 2017 Report Posted January 9, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, 8srnad8 said: I may need to try that--it will certainly need to be a 12 point for sure. 3/8" drive wobble socket, even shallow, doesn't have enough room, let alone 1/2" drive probably needed to loosen. Even old set of offset wrenches I have from our garage in the 50-60's not working. this may be a 12 V starter, not sure as I just bought this car with a 12V "conversion" though still a generator. has fender mounted solenoid, so I'm not sure if they left the 6V started for me to deal with (starter drive doesn't stay engaged long enough) or what I am dealing with, along with heater fan inop and some other electrical issues. At first I liked the idea of a 12V, but now not so sure. Thanks for your help; I guess I could be called shovelharley as I'm 64 but never had the pleasure or money to own a knuckle! Also, my first Mopar--always been GM. Use the starter wrench to break the bolt loose,and then use a 1/4 inch short 9/16 socket with a long 1/4 inch extension and ratchet to remove the bolt. Reverse the process to put the starter back on. You can start the bottom bolt before you do this to keep the starter from falling,but don't tighten it until after you pull the starter tight with the top bolt. Then tighten all the bolts. Make sure you use new lock washers and clean and lightly lube the bolt threads first so you don't have to crank down on the bolts so hard to keep them from backing off. Don't worry about using a 6V starter with a 12 volt system. It will spin for years under 12 volts as long as you don't crank it for an insanely long time and get it too hot. It WILL spin like a politician right before an election,though. While you have it out check the brushes and bushings,and clean the commutator. Then reassemble it and field test it out of the car using a battery and jumper cables. Knuckleheads didn't cost much back in the late 60's or early 70's if you bought them in baskets and cardboard boxes. Edited January 9, 2017 by knuckleharley Quote
desoto1939 Posted January 9, 2017 Report Posted January 9, 2017 The c wrench that don has a picture of is called an obstruction wrench. You can get these at any HArbor Freight or any good tool place. Also you can get one sometime at the local swap meets. might be 9/16 and the other end 3/8 or something of that comination. If you put a socket on one of the bolts then you can determine which is the proper size opening on the ends that you willneed. These are cheap. Do not have to buy a snap-on because you will not be using it everyday so a middle grade C wrench will do you just fine. I have one in my tool box with the car. Rich Hartung Desoto1939@aol.com 1 Quote
Niel Hoback Posted January 9, 2017 Report Posted January 9, 2017 I'm enjoying reading this thread. Fifty some years ago I sold those wrenches at the hardware store calling them "manifold wrenches". I guess it's just what you use them on that gives them their name. 2 Quote
Plymouthy Adams Posted January 9, 2017 Report Posted January 9, 2017 please folks, do not forget the local pawn shops for access to a large selection of tools and I may be just lucky, but I get name brand tools at a fraction of a cost at my local pawn shop. Remember, there is a big difference between asking price and actual selling price...I have never paid asking at a pawn shop... 5 Quote
Young Ed Posted January 9, 2017 Report Posted January 9, 2017 1 hour ago, Niel Hoback said: I'm enjoying reading this thread. Fifty some years ago I sold those wrenches at the hardware store calling them "manifold wrenches". I guess it's just what you use them on that gives them their name. we always called them half moon wrenches 4 Quote
knuckleharley Posted January 9, 2017 Report Posted January 9, 2017 (edited) On 1/9/2017 at 4:04 PM, Plymouthy Adams said: please folks, do not forget the local pawn shops for access to a large selection of tools and I may be just lucky, but I get name brand tools at a fraction of a cost at my local pawn shop. Remember, there is a big difference between asking price and actual selling price...I have never paid asking at a pawn shop... I quit working on cars and motorcycles after all my tools were stolen in 1975. Started back again around 1985 after buying a 50 Ford tudor sedan and not even having a ratchet,decided to hit the pawn shops to see what was available for what prices. First one I walked into I asked the guy if he had any good top boxes available because I didn't even own a toolbox. He said "Yeah,I have one coming off pawn today". I asked him what it was and how much he wanted for it,and he looked at the ticket and told me $400,and when he saw the look on my face he quickly told me "it has a lot of tools in it or I wouldn't have lent so much money on it." I told him "ok,bring it out and I'll take a look." When he came out it was a 10 drawer Mac box full of Mac,Snap on,and some Craftsman tools,including a air ratchet,impact sockets,etc,etc,etc. He looked like he was going to be sick after he spotted the tools in the box,but he had already given me a price,so I jumped on it. Got back home that day and went to see a friend that owns a garage who had a top box just like it,and he told me retail on the empty box alone was 1600 bucks. So yeah,add me to the list of people that think pawn shops are the first place to shop for tools and boxes. New tools by Mac,Snap-on,and others may be expensive,but used ones are dirt cheap. No real market for them because professional mechanics buy new from the dealer truck guy,and nobody else needs them. You can also get seriously good deals on new big boxes and tools on sale at places like Lowes,Home Depot,Ace Hardware,and other building supply and hardware stores,too. I just bought a 45 inch long,23 inch deep 9 drawer work table/tool box for $298 at Home Depot. It has a 3/4 inch wooden top/work surface,and wheels to roll it around. It even has a overhead light and pegboard back to hang tools on,as well as a place to plug in your cellphone and similar items. I'm going to use it to keep all my body tools and materials in one place,and will probably mount a small vise on one end to hold stuff like trim pieces. I bought a set of Craftsman "rounded nut" open end/box wrenches at Ace Hardware a couple of months ago for $29.95 on sale. They go from 3/8 to 3/4 on the open end,but also fit metric and rounded heads on the box end because they have a pivoting "dog" that comes out and locks in place that gets tighter the more pressure you put on it. They really do work,and at $29.95 you are practically stealing them. I also STRONGLY recommend you buy a compete set of the "spiral twist" rounded nut impact sockets made by practically everyone. They will fit and remove rusted and rounded off nuts that nothing else fits. Here is one set to show you what they look like. These are Craftsman,but everybody sells them so shop around for prices. http://www.sears.com/craftsman-10-pc-damaged-bolt-nut-remover-set-low/p-00952166000P?rrec=true These or similar sockets and wrenches can quickly become your best friends when dismantling old parts or old parts cars. Northern Tools is also a good place to buy tools on-line. A step or two above Harbor Freight in quality,but they sometimes have some surprisingly good sale prices on top notch shop tools. You can even buy stuff like 2-stage Quincy air compressors there for about the same price you can buy the big 2 stage 60+ gallon Chinese crap at most box stores,and Quincy's are all made in the US. Edited March 26, 2017 by knuckleharley 3 Quote
8srnad8 Posted January 9, 2017 Author Report Posted January 9, 2017 2 hours ago, desoto1939 said: The c wrench that don has a picture of is called an obstruction wrench. You can get these at any HArbor Freight or any good tool place. Also you can get one sometime at the local swap meets. might be 9/16 and the other end 3/8 or something of that comination. If you put a socket on one of the bolts then you can determine which is the proper size opening on the ends that you willneed. These are cheap. Do not have to buy a snap-on because you will not be using it everyday so a middle grade C wrench will do you just fine. I have one in my tool box with the car. Rich Hartung Desoto1939@aol.com I found mine in a box. Almost identical to the one pictured; 9/16 X 5/8. Certainly not going on the motor side. Maybe I call in Penn & Teller to use it. You guys have all been great to me so far. I'll keep on trying, Maybe it's me; I have no skills on Mopars. Dan Quote
8srnad8 Posted January 9, 2017 Author Report Posted January 9, 2017 4 hours ago, Don Coatney said: This might or might not help. A long extension comes in handy. Wish I had the room like this, especially between the starter motor housing and the bolt itself. though even in this pic, not sure how the "C" wrench I have would work on the motor side, and the other side, have people removed the shifting linkage to get a hand on it? Quote
8srnad8 Posted January 10, 2017 Author Report Posted January 10, 2017 3 hours ago, knuckleharley said: Use the starter wrench to break the bolt loose,and then use a 1/4 inch short 9/16 socket with a long 1/4 inch extension and ratchet to remove the bolt. Reverse the process to put the starter back on. You can start the bottom bolt before you do this to keep the starter from falling,but don't tighten it until after you pull the starter tight with the top bolt. Then tighten all the bolts. Make sure you use new lock washers and clean and lightly lube the bolt threads first so you don't have to crank down on the bolts so hard to keep them from backing off. Don't worry about using a 6V starter with a 12 volt system. It will spin for years under 12 volts as long as you don't crank it for an insanely long time and get it too hot. It WILL spin like a politician right before an election,though. While you have it out check the brushes and bushings,and clean the commutator. Then reassemble it and field test it out of the car using a battery and jumper cables. Knuckleheads didn't cost much back in the late 60's or early 70's if you bought them in baskets and cardboard boxes. Great stuff! I'm thinking weak starter drive spring, but who knows. Anyway with a family and 2/3 in college back ( 70's--80's) then I had to stick with the shovels, as even then the good knuckles were going overseas, at least in New England where I'm originally from. Plus I found the shovels a little more reliable, being a fairly weak wrench on bikes myself, especially when it came to electrical issues. I have had Todd from Hunting Harley's looking for me, but he seems to think that 50K for a knuckle is "chump change". so I stick with my Shovels. Quote
knuckleharley Posted January 10, 2017 Report Posted January 10, 2017 20 minutes ago, 8srnad8 said: I found mine in a box. Almost identical to the one pictured; 9/16 X 5/8. Certainly not going on the motor side. Maybe I call in Penn & Teller to use it. You guys have all been great to me so far. I'll keep on trying, Maybe it's me; I have no skills on Mopars. Dan Pretty simple to use. Put the curved end with the 9/16th opening up on top of the starter,and fumble around until you get it to slip over the head of the bolt. Hold it on with one hand while smacking it with the other hand to "shock" the bolt loose. If that doesn't work,smack it with a hammer a time or two to get the bolt loose. Once you break the bolt loose,use the 1/4 inch drive socket and extension to finish taking the bolt out. 2 Quote
dale Posted January 10, 2017 Report Posted January 10, 2017 Nothing worst than cheap foreign tools...A mechanic is only as good as the tools he is using. 3 Quote
Young Ed Posted January 12, 2017 Report Posted January 12, 2017 So we've got a C wrench, half moon wrench, obstruction wrench, starter wrench all as names for the same thing. Just ran across a new one I've never seen before. A guy in a snap on group I belong to called it a banana spanner! Quote
knuckleharley Posted January 12, 2017 Report Posted January 12, 2017 1 hour ago, Young Ed said: So we've got a C wrench, half moon wrench, obstruction wrench, starter wrench all as names for the same thing. Just ran across a new one I've never seen before. A guy in a snap on group I belong to called it a banana spanner! That's ok,I used to amuse myself calling them "Snap-Off guys" when I was working in garages. Most don't seem to have a sense of humor. 1 Quote
Reg Evans Posted January 12, 2017 Report Posted January 12, 2017 I call all my Chinese made tools...."Snap Off" Brand 2 Quote
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