218 vs 251

[Don Coatney]

Mark, I have installed a Desoto 255 CI flathead engine with dual everything and a lumpy 240-240 duration @ .410 lift cam. I have a 3.55/1 differential and a T-5 with a final ratio of .72. In my 3000 pound car with 27" tires I can easily cruse at 70 MPH with the engine turning a comfortable 2200 RPM's. With this setup I can climb most hills without downshifting and my acceleration rate is able to keep up with most all traffic. However if the weight and wind resistance were doubled I don't think I would be able to do so. Even with a change to a 4.11/1 differential I still have doubts this would be suitable to pull 6000 pounds easily. In my opinion installing a modern V configured engine along with 4 wheel disc brakes would be a better option.

[Young Ed]

1 hour ago, Rockwood said:

Here are the gear ratio and spread for NWC S10 T5s, the older lower not the best, unless you are running higher diff gears.

That chart is far from complete. Anyone using a T5 needs to look up the model # on it to verify the ratios. 

[ggdad1951]

Mark GREAT to see you working on/giving updates on your truck again!

[wayfarer]

Jeff, I don't think anyone is listening........

[ggdad1951]

57 minutes ago, wayfarer said:

Jeff, I don't think anyone is listening........

what, you mean a one ton truck hauling a 5 car trailer isn't a good idea?

[Jeff Balazs]

1 hour ago, wayfarer said:

Jeff, I don't think anyone is listening........

Well it is not like it would be the first time.

Honestly I am all for people using these trucks as much as is possible and practical. But they are what they are and they do have some limitations. Sometimes we just have to recognize this.

Jeff

[55 Fargo]

4 hours ago, Jeff Balazs said:

We should all stop and consider the added weight and wind resistance of a trailer the size the OP suggested. It might not be too big a deal on lightly trafficked level roads. You might even be able to take on some hills. But add in some wind gusts or a twisty section of off camber road and I am pretty certain it would be a white knuckler at the very least. And everyone who has done a fair amount of towing also knows how critical the ability to accelerate in any situation can be. Especially when merging into traffic. Personally I don't see one of these smaller trucks making a safe tow vehicle for anything much bigger than a small boat or a teardrop type travel trailer in today's world. Push this vintage envelope too much and something or somebody will most likely get hurt.

Jeff

You know Jeff, those are all valid point, but!

I told you my fellow flathead mopar enthusiast pulled a 16 ft camper trailer with the 32 Chrysler witha basically stock 250 T5 trans and 3.90 gears from the west coast BC Canada through the Rockies back to Manitoba.

Now did you think I am just story telling....LOL

Your tug is a friggin tank, weight wise, with an old unrebuilt what 218 or a 230.

Now think about another 50-75 hp, would it not make a difference?

Pulling any trailer should mitigate all safety concerns and issues prior to them happening.

But these vehicles have a lot of guts, when built correctly.

I think in your case I would not pull a trailer, or too much load in the box either. Most likely you have about 75 hp to the back wheels.

If you need more power for safety and comfort, heck build an engine, or go V6 or V8, there will bea few on here to advise you in that direction.

I only state the above not to be rude, but to say if you want more power you will have to dump that weaker old engine....

Edited December 13, 2016 by Rockwood

[55 Fargo]

Here Jeff and the rest of you guys, Freds 265, mild build, tri carbs dual exhaust, higher lift cam, shaved head, I do not want to state a guestimate HP and get lynched in the process, enjoy

 

 

[Jeff Balazs]

1 hour ago, Rockwood said:

You know Jeff, those are all valid point, but!

I told you my fellow flathead mopar enthusiast pulled a 16 ft camper trailer with the 32 Chrysler witha basically stock 250 T5 trans and 3.90 gears from the west coast BC Canada through the Rockies back to Manitoba.

Now did you think I am just story telling....LOL

Your tug is a friggin tank, weight wise, with an old unrebuilt what 218 or a 230.

Now think about another 50-75 hp, would it not make a difference?

Pulling any trailer should mitigate all safety concerns and issues prior to them happening.

But these vehicles have a lot of guts, when built correctly.

I think in your case I would not pull a trailer, or too much load in the box either. Most likely you have about 75 hp to the back wheels.

If you need more power for safety and comfort, heck build an engine, or go V6 or V8, there will bea few on here to advise you in that direction.

I only state the above not to be rude, but to say if you want more power you will have to dump that weaker old engine....

Just because somebody did something and got away with it doesn't make it a responsible or proper thing to do. Surely you know that? And you should know that horse power isn't the only limiting factor that these old trucks have when it comes to being a wise choice as a HD tow vehicle. The list of potential shortcomings is almost infinite. Heck these trucks are all old enough to have a bit of metal fatigue present. Really all you would need to have happen is for one old spring shackle to let go. And then there is factor of driver fatigue. To me it makes the idea of the trip you reference nothing more than a glorified stunt. But don't let me stop you.

Jeff

 

[55 Fargo]

6 minutes ago, Jeff Balazs said:

Just because somebody did something and got away with it doesn't make it a responsible or proper thing to do. Surely you know that? And you should know that horse power isn't the only limiting factor that these old trucks have when it comes to being a wise choice as a HD tow vehicle. The list of potential shortcomings is almost infinite. Heck these trucks are all old enough to have a bit of metal fatigue present. Really all you would need to have happen is for one old spring shackle to let go. And then there is factor of driver fatigue. To me it makes the idea of the trip you reference nothing more than a glorified stunt. But don't let me stop you.

Jeff

 

What are you talking about...LOL

Were talking about trailers less than 3000 lbs, maybe in the 2500 lb range with electric brakes, etc.

Well they are not meant to haul big a$$ airstreams, for sure.

The bottom line, is safety for sure, and with the amount of power your truck has and it's weight, you are probably a hazard on the Interstate or major highways, so do use caution.

You mention metal fatique and old metal parts letting go, yes this could happen, and driver fatique, well some dudes will drive an old harley across the country.

Listen Jeff, this old 32 and Bamfords 47 D25 have been all over North America, so some are willing to do this and others want to stay in their safe comfortable bubbles.

You could always plan a trip to see George Asche and have a ride in his cars, then you will see what can be had for these old engines...

[Jeff Balazs]

The OP stated that he was considering pulling a trailer with a weight of 3500#. That is a fair amount of weight to control and stop. Being a travel trailer you also have to factor in wind resistance and quite possibly a somewhat out of balance loading. I towed a well balanced 3500# boat & trailer for 25 years. So I at least know what that sort of weight load takes as far as a tow vehicle goes. I have also witnessed more bad towing incidents than I care to recount here. The bottom line is that when things go bad when towing they do so very quickly. And that is using a modern tow vehicle. Take away the better suspension and braking systems as well as power steering found in the modern rig and you will have a marginal tow rig at best. Fine for a teardrop......and not so hot pulling a 3500# shoebox.

Jeff

[MarkAubuchon]

thanks to all for your response.  If I want  a V8 or 4 wheel disc I'll just keep pulling it with my Ford F150.  What I want to do, which is I believe is possible is to pull my travel trailer with my 50 dodge.  Braking shouldn't be an issue, since I have updated disc and drum brakes with a modern dual master cylinder, Rear gearing will need to be changed. Motor will scream like H*&% as all flathead do but it should and could do the job.  No land speed records will be set  I'm good with 55 and secondary roads, if I hold up traffic I pull over and let them by.  When I drive the old mopars, which I have driven coast to coast, up pikes  peak, Niagra Falls and even into Canada, I have learned slower is better.      I will keep you posted 

[55 Fargo]

19 minutes ago, MarkAubuchon said:

thanks to all for your response.  If I want  a V8 or 4 wheel disc I'll just keep pulling it with my Ford F150.  What I want to do, which is I believe is possible is to pull my travel trailer with my 50 dodge.  Braking shouldn't be an issue, since I have updated disc and drum brakes with a modern dual master cylinder, Rear gearing will need to be changed. Motor will scream like H*&% as all flathead do but it should and could do the job.  No land speed records will be set  I'm good with 55 and secondary roads, if I hold up traffic I pull over and let them by.  When I drive the old mopars, which I have driven coast to coast, up pikes  peak, Niagra Falls and even into Canada, I have learned slower is better.      I will keep you posted 

Hi Mark, no offense but if you want to make torque, for trailer pulling, please speak to George Asche and Tim Kingsbury.

I am with you, on the ability to pull this trailer with respect on slower secondary roadways.

The majority on this forum, do not have the experience and know how, to advise you and/or supply you with the components to  make a flathead a great trailer puller.

Again there are some who want to be helpful, but don't know the answers, there are a few who just want to here themselves speak and want to suggest a V8 or something other than a flathead power plant. in some cases they have never completed a swap into a truck as suggested either.

Good luck with whichever way proceed, and do report back your experiences pulling the trailer across the land.....

[NiftyFifty]

1 hour ago, Rockwood said:

Hi Mark, no offense but if you want to make torque, for trailer pulling, please speak to George Asche and Tim Kingsbury.

I am with you, on the ability to pull this trailer with respect on slower secondary roadways.

The majority on this forum, do not have the experience and know how, to advise you and/or supply you with the components to  make a flathead a great trailer puller.

Again there are some who want to be helpful, but don't know the answers, there are a few who just want to here themselves speak and want to suggest a V8 or something other than a flathead power plant. in some cases they have never completed a swap into a truck as suggested either.

Good luck with whichever way proceed, and do report back your experiences pulling the trailer across the land.....

WOW......what more can I say about this post....completely inappropriate and un-warranted 

There were a lot of great posts and info given, and everyone is at the mercy of information we have, and our own experience, which as a whole, is many many years combined.   

[ggdad1951]

EVERYONE behave on here...don't make me lock this thread.

 

BEHAVE, BE ADULTS!

[P15-D24]

As someone who has used a P15 to tow a 2k pound boat rig to the elevation of 7200 feet twice in 100 degree heat with a 4.1 rear end (It came out of a truck) I can offer some experienced based advice. First, a 3K+ rig needs to have brakes installed. Otherwise it is just plain unsafe. If you are still 6 volt then hydraulic brakes are your only choice. Pulling up any kind of grade will be slow, like first gear slow. 4.1 is the way to go, anything taller than 3.9 is just eating up the clutch. Towing a rig this heavy needs a V8 to get the job done safely. Also be aware you are pushing the limits of the cooling system, between the load and if ambient temperature is high (80 or above).  I never boiled over but had to stop numerous times to cool off when we got to the edge. 

[55 Fargo]

18 minutes ago, ggdad1951 said:

EVERYONE behave on here...don't make me lock this thread.

 

BEHAVE, BE ADULTS!

ggdad, while agree with your position and direction on this issue, I see no basis for any locking, with the content so far.

14 minutes ago, P15-D24 said:

As someone who has used a P15 to tow a 2k pound boat rig to the elevation of 7200 feet twice in 100 degree heat with a 4.1 rear end (It came out of a truck) I can offer some experienced based advice. First, a 3K+ rig needs to have brakes installed. Otherwise it is just plain unsafe. If you are still 6 volt then hydraulic brakes are your only choice. Pulling up any kind of grade will be slow, like first gear slow. 4.1 is the way to go, anything taller than 3.9 is just eating up the clutch. Towing a rig this heavy needs a V8 to get the job done safely. Also be aware you are pushing the limits of the cooling system, between the load and if ambient temperature is high (80 or above).  I never boiled over but had to stop numerous times to cool off when we got to the edge. 

Gerald I agree with all the safety issues you mention, but i do not agree that only a modern V8 will suffice, this I am referencing to lighter trailer towing, not huge campers or car haulers.

this link will confirm 1 flathead owneer experience pulling trailer in your neck of the woods.

http://www.allpar.com/cars/desoto/suburban-1951.html

[P15-D24]

The article notes he increased cooling capacity with a larger radiator. Also he was only pulling 2200 pds, just a little over class one. I used my P15 for years to drag my boat around town with no issues. But as soon as you start pushing the envelope (and 3K plus is pushing right through the envelope) add terrain & temperature challenges you are not going to see adequate performance. As a side note, don't most states require brakes on a rig over class 1?

[55 Fargo]

12 minutes ago, P15-D24 said:

The article notes he increased cooling capacity with a larger radiator. Also he was only pulling 2200 pds, just a little over class one. I used my P15 for years to drag my boat around town with no issues. But as soon as you start pushing the envelope (and 3K plus is pushing right through the envelope) add terrain & temperature challenges you are not going to see adequate performance. As a side note, don't most states require brakes on a rig over class 1?

Yes sir I agree, light trailers, he had a long block 250 with an estimated 130 hp after rebuild.

I do see this as remarkable, as I am sure you do.

I also posted on a local gent who drove his 32 Chrysler with a 250, T5 and 3.90 rear end, pulled a 16 foot camper trailer across the Canadian Rockies to Manitoba 1500 miles.

Now this gent is not a careless dare devil by no means, this car had ample power and torque and it got the job done.

Now I don't think he would want to do this on I 15 or I 5 the 210 or a lot of other LA are freeways.

I think at times we underestimate these power plants and sometimes over estimate the entire vehicle.

I enjoyed your posts.

Yes most states and provinces over 2000 lbs require trailer brakes. This can be added easily with 12 volts, maybe not so easy on a 6 volt diet.

Edited December 19, 2016 by Rockwood

[Jeff Balazs]

1 hour ago, P15-D24 said:

As someone who has used a P15 to tow a 2k pound boat rig to the elevation of 7200 feet twice in 100 degree heat with a 4.1 rear end (It came out of a truck) I can offer some experienced based advice. First, a 3K+ rig needs to have brakes installed. Otherwise it is just plain unsafe. If you are still 6 volt then hydraulic brakes are your only choice. Pulling up any kind of grade will be slow, like first gear slow. 4.1 is the way to go, anything taller than 3.9 is just eating up the clutch. Towing a rig this heavy needs a V8 to get the job done safely. Also be aware you are pushing the limits of the cooling system, between the load and if ambient temperature is high (80 or above).  I never boiled over but had to stop numerous times to cool off when we got to the edge. 

Exactly. And I wonder what that same trip would have been like using a 3.55 rear end? Something else to consider is that most boat and trailer combos are much easier to tow pound for pound than a travel trailer. Less wind resistance and better weight distribution. This kind of stuff really makes a huge difference when towing any distance. Hydraulic surge brakes when they are set up correctly work very well. But to get the most from them you need a full frame hitch system that has been designed for the tow vehicle and a well balanced rig with plenty of reserves. I can't begin to tell you how many foolhardy folks we helped or rescued on Baja Hwy 1 over the years. More often than not it was the rigs that were pushing the envelope to begin with. You know.....the ones that began to struggle on anything but the perfectly flat and level.

Jeff

[55 Fargo]

10 minutes ago, Jeff Balazs said:

Exactly. And I wonder what that same trip would have been like using a 3.55 rear end? Something else to consider is that most boat and trailer combos are much easier to tow pound for pound than a travel trailer. Less wind resistance and better weight distribution. This kind of stuff really makes a huge difference when towing any distance. Hydraulic surge brakes when they are set up correctly work very well. But to get the most from them you need a full frame hitch system that has been designed for the tow vehicle and a well balanced rig with plenty of reserves. I can't begin to tell you how many foolhardy folks we helped or rescued on Baja Hwy 1 over the years. More often than not it was the rigs that were pushing the envelope to begin with. You know.....the ones that began to struggle on anything but the perfectly flat and level.

Jeff

Here Jeff, read this, and maybe you will be a little surprised.

http://www.allpar.com/cars/desoto/suburban-1951.html

[P15-D24]

10 minutes ago, Jeff Balazs said:

Exactly. And I wonder what that same trip would have been like using a 3.55 rear end? Something else to consider is that most boat and trailer combos are much easier to tow pound for pound than a travel trailer. Less wind resistance and better weight distribution. This kind of stuff really makes a huge difference when towing any distance. Hydraulic surge brakes when they are set up correctly work very well. But to get the most from them you need a full frame hitch system that has been designed for the tow vehicle and a well balanced rig with plenty of reserves. I can't begin to tell you how many foolhardy folks we helped or rescued on Baja Hwy 1 over the years. More often than not it was the rigs that were pushing the envelope to begin with. You know.....the ones that began to struggle on anything but the perfectly flat and level.

Jeff

Over the years I leaned the lesson, right rig for the job. Tried a T bird, V8 rear wheel drive and it was better, but always struggled with cooling issues (radiator and tranny)  in hotter climes. Finally did it right, 09 F150 with max tow, rated to 11k. Now I go up the mountain at 70, air conditioner on full and tranny and radiator not even at halfway. Much nicer, less stressful trip! 

[55 Fargo]

I have a 2015 Hemi Ram Crew Cab 4X4, with 8spd trans. Of course it is an easy comfortable ride compared to my 55 Fargo, but where is the fun and sense of adventure in that, some consider a little ustress okay......LOL