Replace 218 engine with a 230.

[Reze]

Hello all.

My name is André, and i live in Switzerland.

The original 218 engine of my 1947 Plymouth special deluxe is broken.

My plan is to install a 230 engine out of a 1950 Dodge with fluid drive, and keep the bellhouse and standart 3-speed transmission of my Plymouth.

I 've heard there are problems with flywheel and crankshaft.

Does someone knows if this is possible?

Thanks in advance

[greg g]

the crankshaft flange on the 230 engine is thicker and is machined for 8 bolts this is due to the extra weight and mass of the FD unit.  You can use your 218 flywheel with the 4 bolts as they will align with 4 of the holes in the crank.  However the thickness of the flange will locate the fly wheel slightly to the rear of its position when mated to the 218.  you may need to do some machine work on the bell housing to make sure the starter gear will fully engage on the ring gear on the fly wheel.  The difference is small but it can be significant.  Measure the flanges to establish the difference in thickness, then put a straight edge across the flange and measure to a point on both engines to establish the distance from that point to where the fly wheel will mount when you swap things over.  Other than that the swap should be a bolt in.

 

Some newer engines had a different exhaust manifold also.  The location of the exhaust exit is between #5 and 6 cylinders insteat of to the rear of #6.  Not a big deal but you will want to match up to your present exhaust pipe in the car.  There may also be a slight difference in carburetor linkage and choke set ups but you should have what you need to do the changeover.

[Don Coatney]

This is what I did to fix the starter to ring gear issue.

 

[rvannoy1]

 Reze,

 

I did this very same swap back in the 60s, However, I used a 1954 230 Plymouth, regular 3-speed (no fluid drive) and as I recall, everything

that bolted onto the 218 (1947 Plymouth) also bolted onto the 230 without any problems.

 

I also did a tranny swap on a 1953 Dodge (241 V-8) from fluid drive to a regular (non-fluid drive) and as I recall I had to plug some oil holes

someware in the rear of the block because the engine oil and torque converter oil were the same. When you changed the engine oil it took

around 13 quarts (as I recall). Good luck with your engine swap.

Edited February 4, 2016 by rvannoy1

[48ply1stcar]

I did the same as Don to make up for the thickness of the crank on 230s that matched up with a automatic transmission. I believe the 230 crank when it comes with manual transmission is the same as the 218.

I did this swap last year and then after decided to have the engine rebuilt.  Maybe not the best order in which to do things.  Check out my thread, "The Next Big Thing"

 

Harold 

Edited February 3, 2016 by 48ply1stcar

[Bmartin]

I'm in the process of switching from a 201 to a 230 with the 8 bolt crank.  I'm using the 201 Bell Housing.  Measuring from the flat vertical face of the block to the flywheel, there is about 50 thousandths difference between the two.  I was not getting full engagement of the starter bendix.  I just dropped off my starter at the auto electric shop and they believe they can add a little material to the lever (foot pedal start) to make up the difference.  Just another data point for you. 

[Frank Elder]

 Reze,

I also did a tranny swap on a 1053 Dodge (241 V-8) from fluid drive to a regular (non-fluid drive) and as I recall I had to plug some oil holes

someware in the rear of the block because the engine oil and torque converter oil were the same. When you changed the engine oil it took

around 13 quarts (as I recall). Good luck with your engine swap.

While this is interesting info, it has absolutely nothing to do with the engine to be swapped by Reze, and could be confusing to the OP.

[ptwothree]

When going from a 218 to a 230, wouldn't a 3 speed bell housing from a 230 solve this problem?

[plyroadking]

When going from a 218 to a 230, wouldn't a 3 speed bell housing from a 230 solve this problem?

I don't think so, the clock position of the starter is different between some years, or at least it was on mine when I did the swap. The positive shift starter won't line up, and the clutch linkage interferes.

[48ply1stcar]

ptwothree

 

The issue is the crankshaft.  I believe that 230s that were matched with automatics have a longer shaft or a thicker end plate (if that is a term) that the flywheel is mounted on.  I bought a 56 230 that was in a Savoy with a automatic and the crankshaft stuck out 3/8 of a inch longer so to align the starter to the flywheel I did the same thing as Don in comment #3.  It started like a champ with flywheel and starter from the 218.  I left my car 6 volt, so I just transferred everything from the 218 to the 230.

 

Reze

 

The 230 oil pan will have to be modified, or I used the oil pan, oil pick and internal oil tube from the 218.

http://p15-d24.com/topic/30707-the-next-big-thing/page-1?hl=+static%20+timing

Edited February 4, 2016 by 48ply1stcar

[wayfarer]

This seems to be a recurring topic of the differences between the 201-208-218 and everything else.....

 

I have measured many of both and the difference is in the projection of the crank flange from the face of the block. Yes, there are variations in flange thickness but the distance from the face of the block to the face (trans-side) of the flange is very consistent:

201-208-218 is 1.0"  all else is 1-3/16". Yes some minor variation here due to wear on thrust bearing.....

The bell housings that I have had are all the same depth (for similar applications). The Plymouth, with a 'shorter' crank, simply uses a flywheel with a deeper offset to reach the starter.

[ptwothree]

I was thinking that a bell, and a flywheel, from a 1954 or so 230 plymouth would solve this problem.  Yes....no?

[48ply1stcar]

I really don't know one way or another, If there is a difference with a newer bell-housing.  I just modified what I had.

[Reze]

thank you all for your help and information. this page is worth every second I spend here.

I will keep you updated.

[wayfarer]

I was thinking that a bell, and a flywheel, from a 1954 or so 230 plymouth would solve this problem.  Yes....no?

My experience says that you must keep the 218 flywheel with the 218 crank unless you are ok with making other one-off mods.

As has been seen on other threads there are divergent opinions.

[Don Coatney]

My experience says that you must keep the 218 flywheel with the 218 crank unless you are ok with making other one-off mods.

As has been seen on other threads there are divergent opinions.

I believe keeping the 230 flywheel with the 230 crankshaft will also eliminate the starter depth issue. In my case I used the 218 flywheel with a Desoto 251 crankshaft hence the starter mount modification.

[Bmartin]

Bringing this one back up to the top.  Hope its not ignored as old.

 

I'm running into issues now that my engine is in the car.  While it was out and without the transmission, I could use the starter to turn the engine over, no issue.  Now that its in the car with the transmission on, it only engages half the time. 

 

I had run a pattern on the flywheel teeth and when the bendix was fully out, there was 3/4's of a flywheel tooth engaged.  I thought at the time that was sufficient as most flywheels have a wear pattern that looks about like that.  My measurements between the 201 and the 230 seemed about 50 thousandths different.  I'm running a 230 with 8 bolt crank/flywheel, 201 bell housing, and R10 tranny. 

 

Has anyone had any luck shimming the bendix.  I don't think I need much and taking the entire thing out just to mill 50 thousandths would be disappointing. 

 

Anything else I should look at that could be causing the issue?  Weight of the transmission?  Mounting in the car?  Either of these possibly causing some tweaking?

 

Thanks. 

[Don Coatney]

Bringing this one back up to the top.  Hope its not ignored as old.

 

I'm running into issues now that my engine is in the car.  While it was out and without the transmission, I could use the starter to turn the engine over, no issue.  Now that its in the car with the transmission on, it only engages half the time. 

 

I had run a pattern on the flywheel teeth and when the bendix was fully out, there was 3/4's of a flywheel tooth engaged.  I thought at the time that was sufficient as most flywheels have a wear pattern that looks about like that.  My measurements between the 201 and the 230 seemed about 50 thousandths different.  I'm running a 230 with 8 bolt crank/flywheel, 201 bell housing, and R10 tranny. 

 

Has anyone had any luck shimming the bendix.  I don't think I need much and taking the entire thing out just to mill 50 thousandths would be disappointing. 

 

Anything else I should look at that could be causing the issue?  Weight of the transmission?  Mounting in the car?  Either of these possibly causing some tweaking?

 

Thanks. 

What flywheel are you using? 230 or 201? The crankshaft offset on the 230 may be different than the crankshaft offset on 201 thus positioning the flywheel in a different location relevant to the starter.

[Bmartin]

Yah, using the 230 flywheel.  So its different.  Measured 50 thousandths between the two blocks.  Not a really big number.  I'd like to hear how much engagement people are seeing between their flywheel and bendix.  At least that would let me know if its just a spacing issue of if something else may be in play. 

[Don Coatney]

Yah, using the 230 flywheel.  So its different.  Measured 50 thousandths between the two blocks.  Not a really big number.  I'd like to hear how much engagement people are seeing between their flywheel and bendix.  At least that would let me know if its just a spacing issue of if something else may be in play. 

This might or might not help. Only photo I have of the starter with a measurement.

 

[Bmartin]

So we heated the arm on the shifter and got  maybe 70 thou more engagement.  We also added a shim to the engagment spring in hopes of increaseing the engagement force.  It made a small difference but its certainly still not working right.  Still grinding.  We can see that there is 100% engagement between bendix and flywheel.  So if you have any other ideas to try, let me know.  I think we are going to try breaking in the gear a little since its new. 

[JD luxury liner]

sounds like the starter motor is spinning up to speed before the bendix is out & engaged . check the bendix to see if it moves freeley

JD

[Bmartin]

Bendix moves fine.  Full engagement.  The starter motor does not engage until the very end of the travel of the bendix.  I'm wondering if the rebuild kit had the an incorrect bendix as part of it.  Trying to locate dimensions and tooth count of a stock one. 

[Reze]

hello everybody

 

i did some progress on the plymouth during the past months.

got the motor in, after some engine work.

i painted the firewall and did many small things.

yesterday i tried to start the engine, but i could not get oil pressor.

after i tried 2-3 times, the 12V battery was discharged , and i also think i need a new starter. he blocked sometimes.

i will try to make it work with the hammer. but i'm sure i need a new one.

can enyone recommend me an new starter?

sorry for my english, i hope you understand what i want to tell you .

 

Here are some pictures of the progress.

 

 

greetings andré

[48ply1stcar]

Very cool.  Just keep going.  I have been working on my car for 21 years.