p15 spits and sputters

[Don Coatney]

We're still working on it, Don.  I will be sure to post when my mechanic finds the solution.  I'm sure everyone on here will be glad to know what the problem was!

Thanks for the reply. The carburetor rebuilder may not be aware of the modified float adjustments required due to the increased expansion rate of the alcohol enriched corn oil fuel sold today. The float level should be lowered to compensate for this. It was mentioned that fuel was observed leaking from the throttle butterfly shaft and thus a recommendation to replace the carburetor. This replacement may not have been necessary in my opinion. Lowering the float level will correct this problem. And I have doubts that the throttle butterfly bushings were replaced in this rebuild as they are not part of the standard rebuild kit. Due to this fuel expansion rate the gasoline in the carburetor fuel bowl will expand after the engine is turned off (due to latent heat in the engine compartment) and flood the intake manifold. This may or may not show up as wet sparkplugs.  

 

I mentioned earlier that spark must be delivered at the correct time. There is a very small window of time on these engines to deliver the spark. If the static timing is not set correctly the engine will never start. Of course your mechanic should already be aware of these issues and know how to correctly set and adjust the static timing.

[Plymouthy Adams]

young, on 06 Oct 2015 - 2:14 PM, said:

Plymounthy Adams it is so easy to sit there and post what you think may be the problem with out seeing the vehicle try to run and post what you think the problem is.So dont talk people down on what or how they get to fix the problem because you dont have the hole story on what has been done and checked on the car posted here.If you want to talk down about what I have done here learn what all I have done to the car first hand before you do and learn my abilities with working on cars as I have repaired and found many problems that the dealers could not fix,I have many shops in town that send me or call me when they cant fix a car and I dont like throwing parts at a car to see what sticks and fixes a car but when you have fuel and spark and the car ran and idled smooth about 2 hours before it let my shop when it would not start and run before it had the parts replaced here the first thing you should think of is maybe a part that was just installed may have went bad and the easiest part to change was the coil and if the spark was a little weak it should only be the coil went bad,so that was the only part I tried and if it started I was going to look at what caused the new coil to go bad.So again learn its always easier to knock someone down from a distance to make yourself look better and someone who has all the answers after the fact.

Please to show one post on the thread where I sat back and called any probable problem as suspect..I did not...I chose not to because there is not enough information given on the early thread and already to many hands in the pot...you yourself as a mechanic should well know coming behind others work is the about the worse scenario ever...you have taken offense it seems and also it seems you have not read the thread entirely...I posted only that the man still has the problem and that the shop that worked on it should be responsible to some degree on the paid repair...that is between him and you and I have no dog in that fight other than to say it is only fair..no fixie...no money..so if you wish to still call me out for sitting back saying what is wrong..first find the post where you said I made such comment ..I am sorry this thing has you stymied...but don't shoot the messengers from the forum as the owner himself threw out the question..thus it is fair game for responses...

Edited October 6, 2015 by Plymouthy Adams

[Tom Skinner]

You will be broke if you don't take the bull by the horns and start working on your own car.

It ain't rocket science. Pay this one, pay that one. The Mopar Car is only worth so much.

Look my friend in simple terms you own a "mechanics car". Either become one, or go broke paying one

The Shop - you better become the Shop.

 

Good Luck. 

Edited October 7, 2015 by Tom Skinner

[blue p15]

You will be broke if you don't take the bull by the horns and start working on your own car.

It ain't rocket science. Pay this one, pay that one. The Mopar Car is only worth so much.

Look my friend in simple terms you own a "mechanics car". Either become one, or go broke paying one

The Shop - you better become the Shop.

 

Good Luck. 

That's good advice, Tom.  I enjoy tinkering on cars, but I certainly don't consider myself a mechanic!  I'm learning from all you experts!

[greg g]

Well fuel at the carb is a good thing, but is it getting to the cylinders? Big vacuum leak anywhere??  Are the windshield wipers vacuum powered?  is Is the line intact?  It can be a source of a large enough vacuum leak to cause all kinds of start, run, drive problems. The spray from the acc pump is good but it doesn't assure that the other carb circuits are working properly.  Has an alternate fuel source been tried, as in pumping from a can rather than the tank?  Has the basic fuel pump volume test been performed? (its is in the repair manual) Is the static timing set correctly? what plugs are you using?  Champions have of late become junk, these carsseem to like AC 47 or the autolite equivalent much better than Champs.  Easier starts better idle, smoother running. Did you check the flex line to the fuel pump inlet?  are there any air leaks on the suction side of the pump? Is the internalscreen in the fuel pump clean and free of debris?

[blue p15]

Thanks, Greg. Those are all good suggestions.  The wipers are vacuum, and there is a new line there.  I have not tried to run it from a can instead of the tank. The fuel pump is new, so nothing internal was checked.  Thanks for your input.  

[pflaming]

I just now copied post #30, will print that out and paste into the back of my service manual. TKS.

[young]

it still goes back to the one thing...he repaired your car..took your money, called it done and you are no better off for your efforts..are you saying that the man should be paid, let off the hood for his lack of ability to repair you vehicle, has he offered you your money back for his failed efforts.  Are you asking now for possible fixes that may have been over looked by your professional in order to attempt to repair this yourself or you going to carry gained information to the man at the shop and tell him his job..I see that going over well.  Just an objective look over the shoulder of a venture gone sour.  I do feel your pain and I see this daily regardless if the car is old or new when carried even to a dealership for warranty work. 

 

You have been given a number of good cause and effect replies that bares checking out and a reply back to the forum as to if fix or fail so other avenues can be explored...

This is the one that I was talking about here you are implying that I just took his money with out knowing the whole story with when the car drove in here it died and never restarted until I installed the carb,Before I replaced the carb I was looking at spark which it had but thought it was weak so I found the wires wrong to the coil,installed a new one got better spark but still on run or start even with carb cleaner.the throttle shaft had about 1/16 play up and down which I know will not cause it not to start but will cause running problems.The customer asked me to replace the points in the car so I did that as I was asked to.When I installed the carb it started up right away and idled good just had to turn the idle screw just a little and it ran good and ran in my shop for about 45mins never missing a beat.A car like this I dont like to test drive because of all the idiots out there that text and drive because of what this car means to the owner if someone hit it while I was driving it it would kill me even if it was a bump and only chipped the paint.

[young]

I understand the very dilemma concerning the carb...the owner will have to make the call one way or the other on that..but often as you well know...things mechanical can and will go wrong...not everything performs out of the box so to speak..again..not criticizing you in any manner...just be suspect of all things and prove them right or wrong as you go along.. 

You are correct this can and are at times bad out of the box but I am not the type to jump and blame a new part for a problem until I can prove it is bad until then I look at the part as if it works fine.

[young]

Thanks for the reply. The carburetor rebuilder may not be aware of the modified float adjustments required due to the increased expansion rate of the alcohol enriched corn oil fuel sold today. The float level should be lowered to compensate for this. It was mentioned that fuel was observed leaking from the throttle butterfly shaft and thus a recommendation to replace the carburetor. This replacement may not have been necessary in my opinion. Lowering the float level will correct this problem. And I have doubts that the throttle butterfly bushings were replaced in this rebuild as they are not part of the standard rebuild kit. Due to this fuel expansion rate the gasoline in the carburetor fuel bowl will expand after the engine is turned off (due to latent heat in the engine compartment) and flood the intake manifold. This may or may not show up as wet sparkplugs.  

 

I mentioned earlier that spark must be delivered at the correct time. There is a very small window of time on these engines to deliver the spark. If the static timing is not set correctly the engine will never start. Of course your mechanic should already be aware of these issues and know how to correctly set and adjust the static timing.

Don Im glad you understand that the float may be set to high for some types of fuel because of the expansion rates for some fuel mixes but unless you could have seen the play in the throttle shaft you cant be sure that it was not needed to replace the carb and if you read the owners post the carb on the car that was replaced was not the right on for the car and the carb shop sent a different carb to him which was the right one.

 

For those that keep asking about if the fuel pump is good please read this,the float bowl is full and if you remove the fuel inlet or just loosen the fuel inlet tube just a little and crank the motor it shoots out of the line so with that said you all should understand it is getting a good amount of fuel to the carb and yes just because the acc pump shoots fuel out every time the throttle is moved does not mean the other circuits are working right.A real fuel volume test has not been done but remember it started and ran after the carb was installed so it should be fine in the volume of fuel getting to the carb.

 

You all can say what ever you want about what you think is wrong with this car from what has happened to you which is what makes these types of site great but dont say what someone has done to a vehicle was wrong or did not need to be done because you were not there to see first hand what was going on with the vehicle when it had the problem even if you car would not start and "this fixed it when my car did this" it may be the same problem but remember cars will not start or run bad for many different reasons.

[greg g]

I had a problem with mine a while back drove me nuts.  Started, and idled fine, reved fine with no load.  Wouldn't drive.  I looked everwher for a problem, checked the line from the tank to the pump, replaced the rubber hose from the  cross member to the pump inlet. did the service manual fuel volume test, got gas in the float bowl, still start idle and rev but no drive above 12 to 15 mph.  Fuel pump was a recent installation. Pulled the pump, and pulled it apart. everything looke clean except for some slight rust collection  on the inner screen mesh.  Cleaned it and started to replace it. I was putting the hollow bolt in that holds the lower chamber cover on and is also part of the feed from the lower chamber to the upper.  Checked it out and found a chunk of debris most likely from the old flex hose.  It was apparently operating like a flow sensitive flapper valve.  Allowing sufficient fuel to pass at idle, and up to 1200 RPM or so.  After that it must have changed position enough with higher flow rated to choke off the flow.  then it would return to the low volume position and allow start and idle but not drive.  

 

Also there is an established problem with newer replacement fuel pumps for these engines.

Many of them are made by Airtex corporation in Mexico.  They press in the fulcrum pin for the cam lever.  Many forum member have had these pins walk out of the pump body.  This causes many problems including those you are experiencing.  some have re staked the pint to assure it won't walk out, some have replaced the pin with a bolt and lock nut, some have fabricated a sheet metal clamp/cover to keep it from moving.  Airtex technical help line denies the existence of pin and or cam lever problems.  

 

To check the health of the flex line take a short length of brake line cut it in half at the middle, put in a loop of fuel line between the halves, us it to replace the flex hose and see if it makes any difference.

[blue p15]

Here is the update everyone has been waiting for!  The car is running again!  The compression is good in all cylinders, the fuel pump is working right, the float level in the carburetor is fine.  So what was the problem?  The condenser!  This is actually the 4th set of points /condenser in the past couple of months.  I guess instead of carrying an extra tune-up set, I will have to carry 4 to make sure I get a good one!  I drove it about 15 miles today with no problem.  Thanks to all of you who offered suggestions!

[Oldguy48]

Just as a "heads-up" for us, where did you get the "culprit condenser"? Then we'll know where NOT to purchase tune-up parts. For myself, I've never had a problem with NAPA components. Autozone, well that's a different story.

Wayne

[ptwothree]

I used to run across bad condensers 40 years ago when I did tune ups for a living.  They always seem to be the weak link.  To bad there is not an easy way to check these before installing.

 

Now with these things made everywhere except here, it's only getting worse, followed by lousy coils.

[blue p15]

Just as a "heads-up" for us, where did you get the "culprit condenser"? Then we'll know where NOT to purchase tune-up parts. For myself, I've never had a problem with NAPA components. Autozone, well that's a different story.

Wayne

Wayne, that is a good question.  The points/condensers were changed at mechanics garages after I couldn't figure out what the problem was.  So, unfortunately, I can't answer that.    

[greg g]

most of the tune up parts available today are just plain crap. Points with misaligned contacts, weak springs, inferior cam rubbing blocks, junk wire, and no lubricating wick. Last time I got them I ordered three sets after finding some actual made in USA pieces through a Car Quest jobber.  The stuff from Advance, AZ and O riellys ando ther chains aren't worth installing.

[Plymouthy Adams]

am not sure where to get quality parts these days...used to be when as a younger lad at the garage..we used the KEM line (yellow and white box) last of the real good tune up parts with no failures and phenolic rubbing blocks

[Jerry Roberts]

Ebay is a good source for NOS tune up parts . Use the original Auto-Lite part numbers to search . Also see   KEM ebay item number 231740395631 

 

[Plymouthy Adams]

thanks Jerry...E-bay is always a great source for this stuff

 

I was mainly referring to an over the counter parts house with quality items..I ordered three sets of ignition stuff for my 54 long long ago...and carry the spares in the body color matching luggage in trunk..while very serviceable and working well..they are not of the quality long past..nylon rubbing block leaves a bit to be desired..as for lube...a small slotted oval shaped piece of felt with a tad of oil will go a long way in lubing the breaker cam..an quick and easy upgrade one can do at home if a few minutes..