BlueSkye48 Posted April 26, 2015 Report Share Posted April 26, 2015 I'm a fairly new member, after scouring the search pages I couldn't find a problem that quite matches what I'm experiencing. To start, I'm sorry working on a 48 P15 club coupe. New battery,cables and freshly rebuilt generator. The starter is fairly fresh, I had it apart a eek ago as it was cranking slow, everything looked clean and in working order so I reassembled and reinstalled adding the new cables. Now it cranks better but sounds as if it's not catching, sounds like the starter is just spinning. Any ideas? Or links to a matching thread? Thanks in advance -Nick Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Niel Hoback Posted April 26, 2015 Report Share Posted April 26, 2015 Make sure the starter drive gear can slide out on the shaft freely. Polish the shaft until it shines and then put just a thin film of oil on it. Clean the grooves on the shaft and inside the drive gear. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Skinner Posted April 26, 2015 Report Share Posted April 26, 2015 Nick, Have you static timed the engine (that is to say timed the Engine while it is not running)? Get Cylinder #1 Piston to T.D.C. (Top Dead Center) turn on the ignition key. Loosen the Distributor Bolt/Clamp. Remove the Coil Wire from the Center of the Distributor Cap/Tower and hold it about 1/4" or so away from a clean ground on the block (Say a Clean Head Bolt). Slowly turn your Distributor in the opposite direction of what the rotation of your Rotor until a spark jumps the gap from the Coil Wire to the ground. Re-Bolt/Clamp your distributor bolt. Turn your ignition off. You should be able to start the engine at this point unless something else is amiss. Tom Skinner Huntersville, North Carolina 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mopar_earl Posted April 26, 2015 Report Share Posted April 26, 2015 Do you have the correct size battery cables? Need 6v ones and they are huge. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Skinner Posted April 27, 2015 Report Share Posted April 27, 2015 Nick, A great Trouble Shooters Guide (Book) Is called: "Automotive Trouble Shooting For WW2 Wheeled Vehicles Volume 1" edited by Robert Notman, Contact: notmanr7@comcast.net It tells you how to test Coils, Condensers, polarize a battery, problems with battery cables, etc. (Also what I just described - Static Timing). The Dynamic Timing (with a Timing Light while engine is running) etc. I believe I paid @ $33 which included S&H about 7-8 years ago for this little jewel of a book @105 Pages of pure good sense. No Bull _ _ _ _ it was originally released around WW2 when books didn't have "filler" to make their Authors look so damned smart chasing big bucks like today. I once borrowed my brother in Laws Engineering Technical Math Book Copyright 1959 (200 pages) It explained clearly what my Tech Math Book could not Copyright 1990 (950 pages). All the Latter Author's educated smarts couldn't explain clearly in 950 pages what an Author 31 years prior could explain clearly in 200 pages. That's when I noticed some people are so smart they are stupid. Just like today everyone is smarter than me. I rather enjoy being ignorant, it does have it advantages. L.O.L. Tom 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueSkye48 Posted April 27, 2015 Author Report Share Posted April 27, 2015 Make sure the starter drive gear can slide out on the shaft freely. Polish the shaft until it shines and then put just a thin film of oil on it. Clean the grooves on the shaft and inside the drive gear. I cleaned and oiled everything before putting the starter back together, it seemed to all move freely Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueSkye48 Posted April 27, 2015 Author Report Share Posted April 27, 2015 Do you have the correct size battery cables? Need 6v ones and they are huge. I matched up the cables, all three, both battery cables and switch to starter Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueSkye48 Posted April 27, 2015 Author Report Share Posted April 27, 2015 Nick, Have you static timed the engine (that is to say timed the Engine while it is not running)? Get Cylinder #1 Piston to T.D.C. (Top Dead Center) turn on the ignition key. Loosen the Distributor Bolt/Clamp. Remove the Coil Wire from the Center of the Distributor Cap/Tower and hold it about 1/4" or so away from a clean ground on the block (Say a Clean Head Bolt). Slowly turn your Distributor in the opposite direction of what the rotation of your Rotor until a spark jumps the gap from the Coil Wire to the ground. Re-Bolt/Clamp your distributor bolt. Turn your ignition off. You should be able to start the engine at this point unless something else is amiss. Tom Skinner Huntersville, North Carolina I guess I didn't say, I can push start the car and it runs superbly, shifts wel, runs smooth. Just wasn't getting much out of the starter. It would crank really slow, so I took it apart as I said, cleaned and oiled the internals and put it back in along with new cables. Now the starter tries harder, just isn't making contact Any way it could be the switch/solenoid? Haven't switched that yet Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Niel Hoback Posted April 27, 2015 Report Share Posted April 27, 2015 What, exactly is not making contact? You said the starter is trying harder but not making contact. Is the drive gear not contacting the flywheel, or do you think something electrical is not making a connection? 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Darbone85737 Posted April 27, 2015 Report Share Posted April 27, 2015 (edited) You can jump across the solenoid terminals and take that out of the question. I just went through starter issues with my car. It was the bendix (starter clutch) that gave me headaches. Edited April 27, 2015 by Darbone85737 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueSkye48 Posted April 27, 2015 Author Report Share Posted April 27, 2015 What, exactly is not making contact? You said the starter is trying harder but not making contact. Is the drive gear not contacting the flywheel, or do you think something electrical is not making a connection? the pinion gear on the starter sounds as if it is not making contact with the flywheel. from sound alone I would say the pinion gear is freely spinning but not turning the flywheels just sounds like an electric motor spinning with no load, does that make sense? lol You can jump across the solenoid terminals and take that out of the question. I just went through starter issues with my car. It was the bendix (starter clutch) that gave me headaches. which terminals should I jump between, just straight battery to starter essentially? if it's not the solenoid I will end up pulling the starter again and checking the bendix and other components My assumption is that the pinion gear just may not be moving forward enough to actually engage the flywheel Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Niel Hoback Posted April 27, 2015 Report Share Posted April 27, 2015 If you feel the starter is spinning fast enough, then you can rule out an electrical problem. Take the starter off, push the drive gear in, hot wire the starter and see if the gear flies out. Be careful when you put the power to the starter, they can jump when they start. Make sure the drive gear is not slipping in its housing. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueSkye48 Posted April 27, 2015 Author Report Share Posted April 27, 2015 If you feel the starter is spinning fast enough, then you can rule out an electrical problem. Take the starter off, push the drive gear in, hot wire the starter and see if the gear flies out. Be careful when you put the power to the starter, they can jump when they start. Make sure the drive gear is not slipping in its housing. Will definitely try this after work tomorrow, thanks! this sounds like my best bet for what I'm hearing Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jerry Roberts Posted April 27, 2015 Report Share Posted April 27, 2015 Nick, A great Trouble Shooters Guide (Book) Is called: "Automotive Trouble Shooting For WW2 Wheeled Vehicles Volume 1" edited by Robert Notman, Contact: notmanr7@comcast.net It tells you how to test Coils, Condensers, polarize a battery, problems with battery cables, etc. (Also what I just described - Static Timing). The Dynamic Timing (with a Timing Light while engine is running) etc. I believe I paid @ $33 which included S&H about 7-8 years ago for this little jewel of a book @105 Pages of pure good sense. No Bull _ _ _ _ it was originally released around WW2 when books didn't have "filler" to make their Authors look so damned smart chasing big bucks like today. I once borrowed my brother in Laws Engineering Technical Math Book Copyright 1959 (200 pages) It explained clearly what my Tech Math Book could not Copyright 1990 (950 pages). All the Latter Author's educated smarts couldn't explain clearly in 950 pages what an Author 31 years prior could explain clearly in 200 pages. That's when I noticed some people are so smart they are stupid. Just like today everyone is smarter than me. I rather enjoy being ignorant, it does have it advantages. L.O.L. Tom Amazon Books has 17 copies of " Automotive Trouble Shooting for WW2 Wheeled Vehicles Volume 1 " they start at $18.70 . 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueSkye48 Posted April 27, 2015 Author Report Share Posted April 27, 2015 (edited) I will definitely be buying that book. I finally had someone else behind the wheel so I could really listen and there is a lot of clicking from the solenoid, so I will try replacing that first, might as well found a 6v solenoid at Oreillys for a quick check, $20, will get an NOS part later on if this works. thanks again for all the help!!! Edited April 27, 2015 by nickerns92 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TodFitch Posted April 27, 2015 Report Share Posted April 27, 2015 . . . It tells you how to test Coils, Condensers, polarize a battery, problems with battery cables, etc. . . . How does one polarize (i.e. change the polarization of) a battery? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tom Skinner Posted April 27, 2015 Report Share Posted April 27, 2015 Todd, I meant to say polarize the Generator/Voltage Regulator - Not the battery. L.O.L. Tom Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Coatney Posted April 27, 2015 Report Share Posted April 27, 2015 How does one polarize (i.e. change the polarization of) a battery? http://www.batterystuff.com/blog/battery-myth-can-a-battery-reverse-polarity.html If you have a wet cell battery are filling it for the first time, and are using an old style, non smart charger, and short the terminals while you are filling it, yes it is possible to hook up the charger backward and reverse charge it. You would not necessarily notice a spark because the battery gains voltage as the battery is being filled, and if it is being charged while you are filling it, the short would not be a strong enough discharge to create a spark. If that was to happen, and a charger was hooked on backwards, or if it was installed in a kick start vehicle and hooked up backwards, then you can end up with a battery that has been charged, but backwards. Notice there are a lot of ‘ands’ in the above scenario. This situation is possible, but not very likely. The second possibility is reversing polarity after the activation process. This is also rare, as it requires a sequence of errors to be present after the installation of the battery. The only way for this to happen would be to completely discharge the battery, either by leaving the key on, or by an unnoticed dead short that completely dissipated the charge over a few days. After that happened it would appear to be a dead battery. Remember, a completely discharged battery is nothing more than an empty vessel. In order to gain a negative charge, it would then necessitate being hooked up backwards, and charged that way. So the real question here is: how can a battery reverse polarity after it has been installed? That same previously discharged battery would then be vulnerable to reverse charging, either by connecting the battery charger backwards, or by a charging system that reversed polarity (very rare, but still possible). So let me restate: The only way for a battery that has a positive charge, to reverse itself, is for the battery to be completely discharged, and then reversed charged. We have seen this happen a couple of times, and it would be considered the more common of these rare situations. For all intents and purposes, the battery will be ruined. You could technically charge it up, negatively, and continue to use it, but your plates are designed with the positive plates being lead dioxide, and the negative being composed of a sponge lead, which would now be reversed. Because the reversed battery is no longer formatted correctly, it will only work to a limited degree. The fact of the matter is, a lead acid battery cannot reverse its own polarity without an external stimulus. It is just not possible. - See more at: http://www.batterystuff.com/blog/battery-myth-can-a-battery-reverse-polarity.html#sthash.dnK3cElC.dpuf Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P15-D24 Posted April 27, 2015 Report Share Posted April 27, 2015 Pull the dust pan off the bell housing then have a friend hit the starter button while you observe from underneath. Then report what you see. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
1941Rick Posted April 28, 2015 Report Share Posted April 28, 2015 Sounds like the bendix is slipping.....sometimes you can wash it out with brake clean then lube again with LPS3......nothing to do with timing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueSkye48 Posted April 28, 2015 Author Report Share Posted April 28, 2015 apparently wasn't the solenoid, same noise new part, will be checking the Bendix at my next opportunity. managed to install a new fuel tank while waiting for the solenoid though, so it was overall a productive day Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueSkye48 Posted April 30, 2015 Author Report Share Posted April 30, 2015 (edited) I hooked it up to power correctly this time, now it spins great, but not when installed.... is there maybe an engine ground other than the battery that I could clean up? it should be getting power with the new solenoid, just maybe not grounded correctly? Edited May 8, 2015 by nickerns92 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don Coatney Posted April 30, 2015 Report Share Posted April 30, 2015 Your brushes do not look that worn. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BlueSkye48 Posted May 1, 2015 Author Report Share Posted May 1, 2015 Your brushes do not look that worn. i don't think so, i might leave them since I'm still pretty sure it had a rebuild close to when I bought it last fall. It just looks so clean and unworn on every internal, so unlike the rest of what I've rebuilt or had rebuilt. but any reason it wont even turn when assembled and hooked up? it seemed to struggle, so i removed it, inspected then reinstalled without changing a thing, now I get nothing out of it, so frustrating. i don't want to rebuild it if I don't have to. maybe i got another faulty solenoid? new parts dont always work... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Young Ed Posted May 1, 2015 Report Share Posted May 1, 2015 How are the end bushings? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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