1954 Plymouth Suburban Project

[Plymouthy Adams]

actually the period correct factory supplied wire baskets by Cello are a vast improvement in look over that Cadillac...

Edited October 18, 2013 by Plymouthy Adams

[pflaming]

Spent the morning gleaning clean metal from a large hood. The under frame was glued so that had to be popped loose. I made one cut with an abrasive cutting wheel, then used the sawzall which is faster and cuts truer.  Now to make some rocker panels, and I once thought an erector set was complicated.

 

I'm documenting the entire process. I hope this is helpful to someone. I don't know if I will do another car, but will finish this one for me, just the way I want it. s

 

I'm a bit surprised that the rocker panels are the same thinkness as the bottom pan material. I know that corners make for strength, and there are a number of 90 degree edges on the rockers. It's no wonder they rust out with all the different ways water can get and cannot escape.  The escape cuts seem foolish in design, drive on one muddy road or get stuck just once and that drain slot is shut.  

 

I do not want to cut the entire rocker out so I'm contemplating the next move. I'm of the opinion that I can reinforce the old and all will be well. I'm not so sure I can fab a new one that would be as strong. This panel is in essence the backbone of the hull, so one must be cautious. The rocker is not shot, just bad enough in enough areas to require some attention.

 

. 

 

 

 

Edited October 18, 2013 by pflaming

[wayfarer]

...I sure hope that Santa brings a new camera for you this year...

[seabee]

You using a camera or a flip phone to take pics?

[Old Ray]

...I sure hope that Santa brings a new camera for you this year...

 

He can’t, ……..after paying 10 dollars for the hood, 20 for gas to get there, 16 for blades and cutting disks, 5 for electricity, and 240 for emergency room for stitches for a 10 dollar piece of square cornered cold rolled that he could have bought at Lowes (?).    

[Don Coatney]

As a rookie to the site, but not to life, this thread makes me feel like a guy who has walked into a drunken party, and does not understand the inside jokes, commentary, and the back and forth.

…………but I do understand and appreciate the time and effort that Paul has taken to post his build, even with poor pictures, ……without people like him most forums would be empty.

Thanks, Paul.

 

 

He can’t, ……..after paying 10 dollars for the hood, 20 for gas to get there, 16 for blades and cutting disks, 5 for electricity, and 240 for emergency room for stitches for a 10 dollar piece of square cornered cold rolled that he could have bought at Lowes (?).    

Congrats Old Ray. You passed the rookie test

[pflaming]

Well, I guess I will have to break down and get a better camera. 

 

Today I'm learning how to use a bead roller. Would be nice to have a helper on the crank, but we work with what we have.

 

Ray, you're only a novice once, that is if you continue and work. Both are appreciated more than bad pictures or novice workmanship. Oh and most of us are sane, there are two or three who are marginal, but so is life.

 

Here is what I did today. I sure hope this all works out, it's a lot of tedious work. I hope these are in sequential order. 

 

 

 

 

[pflaming]

Ray, I thought scanned Polaroid pictures were clear enough, guess my old eyes are not as sharp as you younguns. When you're older than the rusty panels you're working on, being able to see is sufficient. Could use the old brownie but then the pics would be in B/W and I would get hassled for that. 

 

[side bar, note  10,000 looks and just a few who have marginal eyesight!   ]

 

". . .He can’t, ……..after paying 10 dollars for the hood, 20 for gas to get there, 16 for blades and cutting disks, 5 for electricity, and 240 for emergency room for stitches for a 10 dollar piece of square cornered cold rolled that he could have bought at Lowes (?).    . . ."

 

I paid $300 for the body, $50 for the engine and tranny, $40 for the hood, drove 12 miles to a junk yard for the hood $3,00 for gas, salvaged the floor board, bucket seats, and console out of an 87 T-Bird I have parked, $3,43 x 2 for Sawzall blades, reclaimed a bunch of metal from the floor I cut out $0.00 and a bit of zinc perocide for the cuts and bruises. So I guess  I will paint the car a green color, put a confederate flag decal on one of the wing windows, and a recycle decal on the rear bumper. I'm not cheap, just thrifty!   

Edited October 20, 2013 by pflaming

[pflaming]

While watching the Bronco's deconstruct, I sketched out a plan to replace the rear wheel wells and the quarter panels. 

Question: Is this the way to do them? Details in the sketch. Sure would be nice to know auto cad. 

 

 

[Dave72dt]

Before you cut the wheel well out, get your replacement piece(s) made and fit, then cut the quarter to match the replacement. I think there's a bit more shape in the wheel wells than just being a simple bend and a radius on the corner. The center section will be the easiest to make. Rounding the corners of the patch at A & C instead of 90 degree corners will help. There's a bit of reverse curve where it blends into the main portion of the quarter and those are tough to do well, even for pros at metal shaping. I suppose you could just do straight and put the reverse in by mudding it. An English wheel, power hammer and tipping wheel for the bead roller would be helpful.

You could also do a "hammerform" by building a pattern from wood with an overlay to sandwich the metal between and hammering the edge to fit the pattern, some judicious hammer on dolly to get the crown in the corners and flipping it over and stretching it more to get the reverse in it at the corners.

You'll want access to the back of the weld area for stretching the weld, if you can, or you'll have distorted panels. A larger cut area that gives you access for dolly work may give you a better end result than cutting just the minimum.

Your side note on the professional welder is a good one. He/she needs to be well versed in sheet metal welding, not dimensional steel welding.

[pflaming]

It took some time, will be faster for the other side, but one rocker side is in. Held by metal screws for now, weld in later. I was afraid to remove the original rocker. It's strength was not a issue, this way I have nice clean side metal to finish. I hope this is an acceptable way to fix this area. 

 

Quarter panels later. Had a great chat on them this morning with Dave72T, very informative, very helpful. Doug Johnson is also assisting me via phone.  Thanks guys. 

 

[murfman1967]

Coming along nicely.

[murfman1967]

On mine I was able to save the "lip" of the wheelwell and cut out the rusty spot on the side of the quarter panel.  It worked out nicely and saved a LOT of fabrication.

[pflaming]

Do you have any pictures of that. My rust is just above the 'lip' the fender skin is solid, so I have abandoned the plan in post 383. I was pondering opening up the rear well to match the front fender to give it a sportier look, but I decided I was past the "crisis" thing. 

[murfman1967]

No pictures, I just cut out the rust and welded in a flat piece of sheet metal that I massaged to sort of match the contour.

 

This is the best picture I have after the first layer of bondo..

 

[murfman1967]

I too was playing with the idea of opening up the rear wheel wells:

[pflaming]

CLARIFICATION: My suburban is a 1954 Bellvedere.  I bought it for the bumpers then . . . when I removed two doghouse from inside I found a '53 Plymouth and a '52 Dodge set, so that 'confirmed' what the seller told me. Later I found the tail lights in a box of parts and discovered it is in fact a '54.

 

The difference? The grille which impacts the hood and the fenders, the taillights, the top hinges on the tail gate, side trim and maybe some other small details so it's not difficult to confuse the two at first.

 

I am working on the body as you have seen and will update on that when I have it figured out and repaired. For me body work is much harder than mechanical work. One can use a torch or impact wrench to remove mechanical items but body work is HAND work. I enjoy it but will likely not do another car that is this bothersome. For me the suburban model makes it worth it, I like this car and will keep it for myself.  

 

So be back later. 

[murfman1967]

As far as I know the hood between 53 and 54 is the same other than the holes for the hood ornament. The hood latch brackets on the body side are different. They are shorter on the 54. I have a Frankenstein myself. I have a 54 frame, body, hood, and doors with a 53 front clip, roof, upper tailgate and engine.

[murfman1967]

Double post

Edited October 23, 2013 by murfman1967

[RobertKB]

Please don't open up the wheel wells. The car was designed the way it was because it looked best that way. To me, it looks hokey with the whole tire showing. Even the '48 does not have that much although it does show more tire than the '53. The '42 showed more tire/wheel than the '48 so the designers thought it an improvement to show less wheel.

 

I don't like going the other way either by using fender skirts. I guess I am a middle of the road kind of guy. My two cents.

Edited October 23, 2013 by RobertKB

[pflaming]

Cut out bondo and rust areas of the quarter panels, salvaged more material from the hood and learned how to make a replacement piece. Now that I know when to use the bead roller and when to use the hammer and anvil, things will go faster tomorrow. 

 

edit: Nothing will get welded in until all are in and fitted, then I will find someone who is an experience welder to come and weld it all together. That way If something is amiss, it can be changed or added as the case may be. 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 24, 2013 by pflaming

[Dave72dt]

Don't weld that panel in until you fix the one behind it.

[pflaming]

In for lunch. Several observations from a novice body man. One, if metal is cut with a sawzall (blade) a burr remains and if the piece it will be fit to also has a burr then those burrs cause all sorts of havoc. I now run every cut edge past my bench grinder and clean them. Two, for a small patch, by placing a flatting dolly into a vice then it is possible to form that piece, it will be as close as the workman's skill but it will work. Three, for a vertical body curve of some distance 9" or more +/- if one edge is secure then when the bottom edge is secured the curvature will be very close. 

 

This is a lot of work and take a lot of patience but it is fascinating how a flat piece of metal can be formed into shapes. Tools, tools, tools, very necessary but they do not have to be fancy, just functional. Now I'm going to watch the Soxl 

 

All these patches are mounted temporarily. They will be fit and form together once all are in place. 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited October 24, 2013 by pflaming

[RobertKB]

Don't weld that panel in until you fix the one behind it.

 

Gotta agree!

[pflaming]

Dave, 10-4

 

Spent an hour early cutting and cleaning. This will be old news to the pros but to the novice not so. When I cut out the rusty piece above the wheel well the cavity behind was FULL OF HARDENED dirt! Reason dictates that dust and water is 'forced' into that and other cavities and that produces DIRT which dry becomes a SPONGE. That gets soaked and to dry out the metal takes the moisture.

 

So then if a new panel is put in and that dirt is not removed or if the rusty area is bondoed the problem is not solved and will reoccur. No wonder a restorer charges so much AND works on a time and material basis, cash up front, a good one that is. I may cut out more metal to get back to all that dirt. 

 

Seems almost every cut out is like this. Cutting out the rusty area and cutting a new panel is not what takes the time, it''s the cleaning up of what is left and knowing what to get out, thus pre cut panels will probably be worthless since the cavity's size probably changed. 

 

  I once heard that it takes a lot of grass to rebuild a car, it's not the price of the car and the parts that's expense it's the 'grass'. So Ray, yes, this is a 'drunken party' but not because of Wisconsin boiler makers, Tennessee Whiskey, or Billy Beer!   

 

Edit: I cut out more metal and there was MORE dirt. So I've got to be certain that cavity is clean, then cover it up front and back. 

 

 

Edited October 25, 2013 by pflaming