Noise...on revving while engine is at temperature?

[Joe Flanagan]

I edited my post above. The dent was in the flywheel cover, not the oil pan. Yet another senior moment.  

[Powerhouse]

SO...

 

The rods shake by hand but I think that's due too the pin bushings.  The rod end play is within spec.  I can move the rod on the piston pin very easily ...not just side to side...but up and down at each end of the bushing.  Not very sloppy ..but they shouldn't do that at all.  

 

I haven't plastigauged or measure yet...because this seems lik crap allready. 

 

Any pointers guys????

 

heres rod bearing #3...only about 2 years with low mileage.

 

Edited February 15, 2013 by Powerhouse

[Don Coatney]

Ever run low on oil? I am surprised your oil pressure is good. Bummer

[TodFitch]

Ever run low on oil? I am surprised your oil pressure is good. Bummer

Blocked or clogged oil passage?

[Powerhouse]

I have always made sure the oil was clean and enough in there.  This is really wierd.  I cleaned the block nd everything so much it was overkill...seemed clean as a whistle.   The block was hot tanked too..and then I cleaned it even more.

 

Plastigauge shows .0015 - .002 which from what I read is fine.   The rod end play is actually at spec too .0011....0012 I have too really press in but gauge doesn't go in all the way. 

 

So I am guessing the scores in the bearings is from crap in the oil?  Crank isn't so bad as far as scoring..pretty nice actually.  I can just about feel it...but not enough to catch a finger nail. 

 

I wonder if I can replace the bearings?  I am broke.  I will remove the head tomorrow to look at the pin bushings...they seem really bad too me...but hard to tell from under the car.  I thought they shouldn't move very easily.  They didn't when I put them in...just thumb pressable....slight drag with oil. Seems like they are worn more at th edges.  but will be able to tell tomorrow.  I'll check the cylinders too. 

 

From online source:

Connecting Rod Bearings:
    Journal Diameter, Inches: 2.0615 - 2.0625
    Bearing Clearance, Inch: .001-.0015
    Rod End Play, Inch: .006-.011
    Rod Bolt Tension, Lbs.Ft.: 45-50

Main Bearings:
    Journal Diameter, Inches: 2.499-2.500
    Bearing clearance: .0005-.0015
    Shaft End Play: .003-.007 (Thrust taken by rear bearing)
    Main bolt tension, Lbs.Ft.: 80-85

[Don Coatney]

Has your engine ever over-heated?

[Dodgeb4ya]

Were all the Rod and main bearings plus rod bushings big name made in america parts-not no name white box offshore parts ?

[Powerhouse]

never overheated...always runs at 180 or less with new water pump...I even tested the temp gauge against a modern one for accuracy. 

 

The rod bearings say:

 

clevite

77   2

 

11/08

.010

CB60G

[Joe Flanagan]

This is so much like my experience. When I took my engine apart, the bearings were scored in the same way. I don't believe this had anything to do with the knocking I heard but instead was a result of my own carelessness. I had the engine stored on a stand for 7 years, covered with plastic and drop cloths. But I did not put the spark plugs in their holes. In that time, I did sandblasting outside the garage--well away from the engine, or so I thought. I think some grit may have gotten in through the spark plug holes or some other way. It's also possible there was some debris in one of the oil passages.

Like you, I had the engine hot tanked and was super careful cleaning it out. I thought I was going overboard, as careful as I was. Apparently not. I got all new bearings and had the cylinder walls and crank journals honed, which took care of the scoring. I also replaced the camshaft and cam bearings.

Against my better judgement, I got replacement bearings from Roberts and as soon as I opened the box, I sent them straight back. I wound up getting them from Vintage Power Wagons.

Another thing: When I first started the engine, I had no oil pressure. I found out that the oil pressure relief valve was stuck in its bore. I freed it up and then had good pressure. I didn't run it much with no pressure but that could have caused the scoring, I suppose.

When I took it to the machinist, I had him mic everything to be sure all was OK. Then I took all the pieces home and reassembled the engine. So far so good. Looks like you've got a rebuild in front of you, though.

[Young Ed]

So scary. The engine thats in my truck had the same thing happen to it. 176 miles after rebuild all bearings were toast. Like Joes it sat in the frame in the restoration shop for years. Mine got the crank ground again and all new bearings.

[Dave72dt]

 How do the mains look, especially the one that feeds that rod or do they all look like that?  Where does the gauge pick up it's pressure at? Before or after the crank?  Since it sounds like the wrist pin bushings are gone too, what lubes those? Simple splash or is there a squirt hole on the big end of the rod?  Could the rod oreintation on the crank be backwards?

[drillmastertommy]

This may sound like a daft comment from an amateur but was any assembly grease applied to the bearing faces when they were first fitted?

[Joe Flanagan]

The oil holes on the connecting rods should be facing the valve side of the engine. I might be mistaken, but I think it's very difficult to even turn the crank if you get one of the rods facing the wrong way. 

[TodFitch]

 How do the mains look, especially the one that feeds that rod or do they all look like that?  Where does the gauge pick up it's pressure at? Before or after the crank?  Since it sounds like the wrist pin bushings are gone too, what lubes those? Simple splash or is there a squirt hole on the big end of the rod?  Could the rod oreintation on the crank be backwards?

 Gauge picks up the pressure on the main oil gallery that feeds the bearings, so the gauge pressure is before the crank.

 

I was wondering about the condition of the mains too. If they are okay then I wonder if the drilled holes in the crank that feed the rods were clogged. Insufficient oil to the rod bearings would also mean that the oil from the holes in the rods that lubricate the cam and to a lesser extent the cylinder walls and wrist pins wouldn't be doing their job either.

[Young Ed]

The oil holes on the connecting rods should be facing the valve side of the engine. I might be mistaken, but I think it's very difficult to even turn the crank if you get one of the rods facing the wrong way. 

 

Joe that sounds likely with the way they are offset. However I believe its possible to put the bearing in so the holes don't line up.

[Powerhouse]

Ok folks,  sorry for the delay.

 

The mains are fine...they looked great actually.  The rods were in the correct way, with hole towards valves to catch oil spray.  Pressure gauge line is in the stock position.  Assembly lube was used initially for sure. 

 

What I found:

 

The wrist pins were worn so bad I could see it with the naked eye.  The bushings were worn too.  I used my original 47 wrist pins which were in very good condition.  I saved them to use for something, I didn't think I would be using them in my rebuilt engine though. The noise is much less now. I also found a wasp or cricket in my oil pan, under the screen though so it didn't get sucked in.  I live in a dusty dry area...I am going to get a better air cleaner.  I have no idea how the bug got in there.  I might have driven without the air cleaner once or twice for test runs.  I cleaned the oil pan really well before I buttoned it back up.  Everything looked really clean and not burned or blackened underneath.  The mains were really nice.  Clearance on rod/main bearings were good too.  The pistons, allthough in very good shape) and head were so carboned up I couldn't believe it!  When I took the engine apart originally(which was probably never opened since 47...so much grease caked on it couldn't have been...plus it was  from a low mileage one owner car) it was cleaner than it was now.  I have never seen so much carbon build up..about an 1/16" and up in some places.  So combo of crazy carbon build up and beat to crap wrist pins...I wonder what would do that. I ran seafoam throught he top end twice and still the carbon was really heavy. 

 

I had to put the darn thing all back together so I could get to work.  I didn't eat all day and was done by 10:30pm.  Not a day I want to re-live any time soon. I will order new  rod bearings, bushings, pins, etc. And tackle it another day.  I wonder If I can reuse the head gasket...darn things aren't cheap.

Edited February 15, 2013 by Powerhouse

[Dave72dt]

I'd double check the rod brg clearances when you get the new ones installed.  i would have expected a bigger gap number than what you mentioned from the looks of the brg.

[Young Ed]

I agree Dave. I wonder if either those bearings were made wrong or if there was a crank/bearing measurement off.

[Powerhouse]

yeah..I thought they would have been worse too.  I will double check them when I get the new ones. 

[Dodgeb4ya]

Are the bearings and bushings made wrong? Clearance/ materials issue?

[Powerhouse]

i'm not sure.  I got most of the stuff from VPW.  The main bearings came from my machinist and they look fine. 

[greg g]

Did anybody check your crankshaft run out? That is the amount of distance the crank can move forward and back within the main bearings.  I have reused head gaskets with no ill effect.   Excess carbon indicates way over rich mixture, out of heat range plugs and or retarded timing or improper advance curves.  What kind of gas mileage were you getting?   Bees and wasps can enter the block through the road draft tube, no big deal.  Any bug going down the carb would ed up just a spot more more carbon deposit.  

Edited February 18, 2013 by greg g

[Powerhouse]

yes.  it was within spec and still is.

[Powerhouse]

Anyone have brand preferance on bearings...fed mogul, clevite, borg warn....etc.?  I had clevites from VPW before.

[Don Coatney]

   Bees and wasps can enter the block through the road draft tube,

 

 

I thought there was a screen in the draft tube.