Mopar L Head Versus Ford Flathead V8 and Chevy Stovebolt 216 and 235 6cyl

[55 Fargo]

I just returned from a 5 day trip during which it rained 4 of the 5. My car started every morning without difficulty. I suspect most of the hard to start rumors are based on when the cars were just plain worn out. My grandfather had a 39 plymouth business coupe either new or close to it. That lasted him through the war when he got on a waiting list and was able to buy a d24 I think a 47 model. His next one was a 51-52 dodge bought just out of warranty that had a squeak that the owner couldn't get rid of. Grandpa took it to sears for new shocks and cured the noise after buying it cheap. I never heard him comment on any of these 3 being hard starters.

I think these ole girls should start no problem in damp rainy weather, it's when the mercury dips below 0 that issues arise perhaps.

Does anyone know how these old engines would start in sub zero winter weather?

My Uncle was telling me that, Chrysler Flathead 6s were used in many old Bombardiers, and the only issues were cold weather starts on a frozen lake, that some bottom ends would get chewed up, I think the quality of oil may have been an issue in those cases....

[Young Ed]

Fred those cars I mentioned above were all owned and used right here in Minneapolis MN. On the really long cold days Gramps would leave a kerosene lamp light under the hood and put a blanket on the hood.

[55 Fargo]

Fred those cars I mentioned above were all owned and used right here in Minneapolis MN. On the really long cold days Gramps would leave a kerosene lamp light under the hood and put a blanket on the hood.

Oops forgot , hey My Grandaddys used to bring the battery in the house to keep it warm, and put fire embers in a steel pan and slide under the oil pan, on those cold mornings.

My Dad recalls going into the city in a 1930s International truck, and having hot rocks in the cab to provide some hat for the ride to town....

[Young Ed]

Oops forgot , hey My Grandaddys used to bring the battery in the house to keep it warm, and put fire embers in a steel pan and slide under the oil pan, on those cold mornings.

My Dad recalls going into the city in a 1930s International truck, and having hot rocks in the cab to provide some hat for the ride to town....

Nothing to forget I didn't say and no reason to assume both my grandparents lived in Mpls. Actually my other grandparents lived in Duluth which is even colder!

[55 Fargo]

Nothing to forget I didn't say and no reason to assume both my grandparents lived in Mpls. Actually my other grandparents lived in Duluth which is even colder!

Been to Duluth a couple of times, as you get closer to the city, you feel Lake Superiors natural air conditioning at work, a very beautiful small city, and the drive from Duluth to Thunderbay Ontario, along the lake is awesome, now that would be a nice old car route....

[Rusty O'Toole]

Back in 1946 -47 my old man lived in Kapuskasing Ontario. This is where all the car companies do their cold weather testing.

On 40 below days he would start up his 1934 Dodge and then boost the other cars in the neighborhood.

His secret was, he had 2 batteries which he brought inside at night and kept in the kitchen behind the wood stove. Also his engine was tuned to the teeth (he was an electrician) and the crankcase filled with the lightest oil he could get.

With 2 six volt batteries in series for 12 volts he could always get the engine to start.

He also told me the seam in the hood was directly over the plugs. Rain or dew would drip down on the spark plugs. So if there was rain he would wipe off the plugs or brush diesel fuel over them with a paint brush and the plugs would fire.

[55 Fargo]

Back in 1946 -47 my old man lived in Kapuskasing Ontario. This is where all the car companies do their cold weather testing.

On 40 below days he would start up his 1934 Dodge and then boost the other cars in the neighborhood.

His secret was' date=' he had 2 batteries which he brought inside at night and kept behind the stove. Also his engine was tuned to the teeth (he was an electrician) and the crankcase filled with the lightest oil he could get.

With 2 six volt batteries in series for 12 volts he could always get the engine to start.

He also told me the seam in the hood was directly over the plugs. Rain or dew would drip down on the spark plugs. So if there was rain he would wipe off the plugs or brush diesel fuel over them with a paint brush and the plugs would fire.[/quote']

And we think we have it rough, pointing that command start out the window, and letting the car warm up.

Ford tests Trucks in Thompson Manitoba, 500 miles north of Winnipeg where -45 is not unheard of, and -30 is a balmy January day.

Hell Winnipeg is darn cold, must be 1 of the biggest Cold cities of the world next to Moscow Russia, which is slightly warmer....

[Young Ed]

Been to Duluth a couple of times, as you get closer to the city, you feel Lake Superiors natural air conditioning at work, a very beautiful small city, and the drive from Duluth to Thunderbay Ontario, along the lake is awesome, now that would be a nice old car route....

Back maybe 10 years ago our plymouth club region did a tour around lake superior. Many of the group went all the way around it.

[greg g]

Hmmmm. I sprayed my engine down with Gunk degreaser and gave it a pretty good bath with the garden hose a month ago. I had covered the carbs but not the dist. with puddles in the spark plug wells and water dripping off the wires, it started with out a hitch, and boiled the water out of the head depressions. I believe that was a little bit more that some dew or overnight rain. Just lucky I guess.

[55 Fargo]

Hmmmm. I sprayed my engine down with Gunk degreaser and gave it a pretty good bath with the garden hose a month ago. I had covered the carbs but not the dist. with puddles in the spark plug wells and water dripping off the wires, it started with out a hitch, and boiled the water out of the head depressions. I believe that was a little bit more that some dew or overnight rain. Just lucky I guess.

Air Compressor or shop vac, can get all the excess water off if need be, but as you see, it is not necessary.

If water does not get into the carb or dizzy, the engine should start....

[Frank Elder]

I have seen only one set of these ever installed on a working running flathead...must be a miracle they made it to the show..

I have a set on my dodge....it sits out 365 days a year, starts everytime:)

[T120]

Back in 1946 -47 my old man lived in Kapuskasing Ontario. This is where all the car companies do their cold weather testing.

On 40 below days he would start up his 1934 Dodge and then boost the other cars in the neighborhood.

His secret was' date=' he had 2 batteries which he brought inside at night and kept in the kitchen behind the wood stove. Also his engine was tuned to the teeth (he was an electrician) and the crankcase filled with the lightest oil he could get.

With 2 six volt batteries in series for 12 volts he could always get the engine to start.

He also told me the seam in the hood was directly over the plugs. Rain or dew would drip down on the spark plugs. So if there was rain he would wipe off the plugs or brush diesel fuel over them with a paint brush and the plugs would fire.[/quote']

...He may also have used one of these?

[55 Fargo]

...He may also have used one of these?

[ATTACH]29382[/ATTACH]

That would do the trick, but is that not an outline of the US map, would this product work here in the Great White North we call Canada.........LOL

[greg g]

perhaps the Simpson one had the canadian map. Looks like they were made by Bunson and branded for Allstate.

http://www.addoway.com/viewad/Antique-Auto-Engine-Heater-Bunsen-Vintage-Car-1228364

Here is another style, says it doubles as a road flare by removing the chimney

Edited September 5, 2011 by greg g

[blucarsdn]

A debate about the pro's/con's of six cylinder Chevy, Chrysler, Ford engines is as senseless as a discussion about politics, religion and women... Everyone has their own ideas which are hard to change.

The fact of the matter is that for brute pulling power an inline engine will win every time.. Generally speaking an overhead valve engine will make more power (torque) than a flathead and/or V8 engine. The vast majority of diesel engines are inline... An inline engine is naturally balanced where-as a V8 is not.

The truth be known, the use of babbit bearing compared to inserts is more a matter of economics.. H. Ford was all about cost, he was a penny pincher of the first order. Insert bearings were much easier to use on a production line than hand fitted babbits.

The much maligned "dip oiling system" of the Chevy 216's is not really a dip oiling system. The pan has full pressure oil lines that go to each rod cap, the oil is shot to the cap and captured by the dipper on the upward swing. If the pan is bent which was common on the unimproved roads of the '30's, the pan needed to have the oil lines re-targeted... This was also a procedure that was supposed to be done when the engine was overhauled.

If an engine would start in cold weather depended on many factors; Was the vehicle garaged? Did the vehicle get winterized?... ie. oil that was diluted 50/50 with kerosene?... and most importantly, did the car have a Montgumery & Wards battery? ( my dad thought that M&W battery's were the best)..

When I was a kid growing up in Eastern Idaho, the winter temps dropped to -30 F in the winter. My father had two Mopars, a 36 Plym sedan in 1944 and a '47 Dodge pickup in '48... The Plym would not start in the winter so dad got rid of it... The Dodge would only start if someone went out at started it around midnight, keeping it running until it warmed up.. That job fell on me. Dad had a couple of Fords, a '34 and a '39, neither would start on their own unless we took the battery's in the house at night... One morning when we were in the mountains hunting we had to jack the '39 up and build a fire under the engine..

Electric block heaters were a wonderful invention.

[Rusty O'Toole]

It may be true today that an OHV will make more power but this was not true before about 1953.

OHV engines make more power because they have higher compression. The design of the typical flathead combustion chamber limits them to 7.5:1 compression or less. The highest compression flathead car engine was the 1954 Packard @ 8.7:1 but they used every trick they could think of to get it that high.

When all cars were limited to 7.5:1 or less compression by the quality of gas available, the OHV engines had little or no advantage in horsepower.

If you go back and look up developed horsepower and torque figures from the 1920s, 30s, 40s and early 50s you might be surprised to find the OHV engines had the same HP or less than the best flatheads.

The only exceptions were out and out racing or high performance engines with overhead cams as well as overhead valves, like the Duesenberg or Stutz. Even then the difference was small.

[sorensen_dk]

Why then would anyone introduce a more complicated cylinder head introducing additional moving parts without gain in power or torque?

[Rusty O'Toole]

Why then would anyone introduce a more complicated cylinder head introducing additional moving parts without gain in power or torque?

Because they knew better gas was coming.

When Cadillac introduced the first modern OHV V8 in 1949 they said it was built for up to 10:1 compression even though the 49 model only had 7.5:1.

It was not the only new V8 that year. Lincoln brought out a brand new, flathead V8.

The comparison, Cadillac short stroke OHV 331 cu in 7.5:1 compression 160 HP. Lincoln, 337 cu in long stroke flathead 7.5:1 compression 154 HP.

You will see they were comparable in size, both designed for luxury cars of similar size and performance, both state of the art for the year, and the OHV only had a 6 HP advantage or less than 5%. Not a noticeable difference.

In later years the Cad increased horsepower by higher compression as better gas became available. Lincoln dropped their flathead in favor of an OHV V8 in 1952.

The last flathead luxury car was the 1954 Packard Patrician. It had a 359 cu in 212 HP flathead straight eight. By that time Cadillac was up to 220HP.

Again, not a lot of difference. But this was the limit for the flathead. Packard had a very sophisticated design with the valves tipped at an angle towards the cylinders, and a well though out combustion chamber design. It also had an aluminum head.

All this allowed them to use an 8.7:1 compression ratio, the highest of any car that year. The highest of any flathead motor

The next year they brought out their own OHV V8.

The point of all this is yes, the OHV short stroke engine has the advantage in sheer horsepower over the flathead engine if you have the high octane gas.

But the advantage is not as great as some imagine and the flathead engine is not a worthless hunk of scrap iron.

Too many people think they must scrap the old flathead if they wish to drive their car. Nothing could be further from the truth. The flathead can still give good service if it is kept in good condition.

Edited September 5, 2011 by Rusty O'Toole

[Rusty O'Toole]

There were other factors at work besides better gas.

One was the improvement in automatic transmissions. They reduced the advantage of the low speed pulling power of the long stroke engines.

Another was the new interstate hiways. They required a higher speed engine than formerly, the short stroke OHV engines were better suited to this service.

The short stroke, large bore design was required to get the most out of an OHV. A long stroke, small bore engine did not have room for large enough valves in an OHV head. The flathead did not have this problem as the valve chamber was beside the cylinder, the designer could make it wider than the cylinder and use whatever size valves he liked. The Harley Davidson flatheads have very large valves for the size of the engine and a very wide valve chamber.

So circumstances favored the development of short stroke, large bore, OHV engines and they did offer improved performance and economy.

So, the flathead was king on its merits from the early twenties to the early fifties, a period of 30 years.

Then it was succeeded by the OHV V8 which reigned for 25 or 30 years before being slowly replaced by 4 cylinder and V6 engines with OHC.

[B-Watson]

The "new" 1949 Lincoln flathead V8 was based on a Ford truck engine.

The old flathead engines were long stroke engines which produced good low end torque. They are not high rpm due to the long stroke which produces more heat.

In Europe the small bore, long stroke engines survived due to the low highway speeds. They were popular there due to the engine taxes which were based on bore size and number of cylinders. In the late 1920's Essex came out with a long stoke four for export sales.

Worked fine in Europe but in North America the higher rpms resulted in engines that self destructed after a couple of hours on the highway. Studebaker's first Erskine had the same problem while Willys's Whippet gave the driver warning that it was self destructing as various bits and pieces shook loose and/or fell off.

The higher speeds possible on the new highways built after WW II demanded more power and engines that could survive.

After the war there were two schools of thought regarding more power. One was cubic inches, while the other was higher octane gasoline which could permit up to 13:1 compression ratios. Given that higher octanes resulted in fewer gallons of gasoline per barrel of crude, that was not the way the gas companies decided to go.

Oldsmobile (1949), Studebaker (1951) and Mopar (1951-53) all went the high octane route. Studebaker and Mopar hit the size max in less than ten years. Compression ratios got up to 9:1 one base engines (regular gasoline) and 11:1 on high output engines (premium gas). Engines for racing went higher.

One advantage of ohv engines was the fact the combustion chamber was located over the pistons. Better combustion and fuel/exhaust flow compared to the flathead with the valves being beside the cylinders. Which also restricted the size of the valves in a flathead as they had to fit in the space between the cylinders and the outside wall of the block as well as the cylinders next to it. Siamesed cylinders were also common in flatheads which also restricted valve space. Bigger valves meant a wider and longer block.

Which was the big advantage of a "V" block. A big bore V8 could use a shorter block than an inline six More so with an inline eight.

[wallytoo]

Does anyone know how these old engines would start in sub zero winter weather?

they start just fine. i use my truck all winter here in central nh, even during sub-zero weather. i've even got pics of the truck being loaded with ice blocks from an ice harvest several years ago, and that morning the temperature started just below zero.

here's the link http://www430.pair.com/p15d24/mopar_forum/showthread.php?t=13562&highlight=harvest

wally

Edited September 7, 2011 by wallytoo
add link to thread

[55 Fargo]

they start just fine. i use my truck all winter here in central nh, even during sub-zero weather. i've even got pics of the truck being loaded with ice blocks from an ice harvest several years ago, and that morning the temperature started just below zero.

here's the link http://www430.pair.com/p15d24/mopar_forum/showthread.php?t=13562&highlight=harvest

wally

Thanx Wally, thee are great old workhorses, my old flatheads all have old block heaters in them....

[Barabbas]

Does anyone know how these old engines would start in sub zero winter weather?

....

I had an 52 when I lived in Northern Il--she started fine on sub-zero and single digit mornings if you could get her to turn over----now shifting from 1st to 2nd when she was cold is another story...took two hands on the gear shift

[Rusty O'Toole]

Friend of mine drove a 52 Ford V8 that had been in his family for years. Sometimes in real cold weather it was the only car that would start, so he would drive it to work. A lot of people crabbed about him driving a nice old car in winter but it didn't seem to hurt. He only sold the car 2 years ago.

[blucarsdn]

Putting all the dialog aside pertaining to compression, fuel octane, long stroke, short stroke and OHV V8's... The original question pertained to a comparison between "Mopar L Head vs Ford Flathead V8, Chevy 216/235 6 cyln".

As I have already stated, an inline engine will produce more torque than a V motor. In the real world of the early engines, either the Chrysler flat-head or Chevy 6 would run off and hide from a Ford V8 in the mountains or a dirt field next to a harvesting combine.. With the low rear axles ratios that were very common, the inline engine would pull in high gear at speeds lower than 20 mph where-as the Ford V8 would buck and jump to a stall if the trans was not shifted into a lower gear.

It is a fact of life that V motors achieve their rated horse power at high RPM's, where-as inline engines achieve their rated horse power at much lower RPM's.

The side valve design of the flat-head engines greatly impede the flow of the air-fuel mixture where-as the overhead design allows a more even unrestricted air flow. Buick, Chevrolet and Nash realized this early on.

In resent years the flat-head Ford V8 has become a very popular motor. Modern engine technology has found that mild porting and relieving of the block along with a compression ratio not to exceed 9.1, along with other improvements, can result in an engine that will develop in excess of 300 hp.

This development has changed the Ford V8's from being mostly scrape iron, to now commanding prices near $1,000 for a rebuildable 59AB or 8BA block.

As the Chevy stove bolt six went through it's evolutions, starting with the 216, 235, 230 and then the 292 of the mid 60's, the result was an engine that would run off and hide from a 327 V8 in the trucks.

In resent times many people have rediscovered the Chevy 292 engine.. With some head work, an improved cam, a Clifford 4 barrel manifold and a good carb, will result in an engine that will put out over 300 hp.

The Ford 300 CID 6's and the Mopar slant 6's are also becoming very popular with the people that are tired of the bellybutton SBC's..

In summary, the engines in question were all good units, some were maybe a little better, depending on their application, maintenance and location. Modern engineering and technology has breathed new life into these old work horses....Bill