Extended life anti freeze

[garbagestate 44]

Have any of you guys heard about this stuff? This post appeared on the WPC website. It says not to use modern coolant in older engines and promises dire consequences if you do;

Information was just published in the Auburn Cord Duesenberg Club Newsletter concerning the use of "extended life" antifreeze in cars over 10 years old.

In a nutshell--don't do it!

Under NO CIRCUMSTANCES should an "Extended Life" antifreeze, which utilizes Organic Additive Technology (OAT, H-OAT, or N-OAT) as one of its chemicals, ever be used in our cars over 10 years old. It attacks the gaskets and gasket cements in our cars, causing major leaks and forcing ultra-expensive repairs. The "Silver Ghost Association" Rolls Royce people have documented massive cooling system failures apparently caused by this anti-freeze product.

Antifreeze that can be used safely in our cars uses older-fashioned Inorganic Additive Technology (IAT) additive.

You cannot tell by the color of the antifreeze if it's safe to use. Also, the product may be labelled "Safe for Older Cars"--meaning 10 years old at most. Brands to be AVOIDED are all Prestone lines and Zerex's G-05 in the Gold-color container. Avoid any "extended-life" antifreeze. None of us wants to pull and rebuild our cars' engines.

Acceptable brands are Peak, Peak's HD Product "Sierra," and Zerex Original Green in the WHITE container.

If any of the OAT, H-OAT, or N-OAT products are in your car the cooling system should promptly be drained--radiator and block-- the system flushed thoroughly, and IAT antifreeze installed. I am checking to see what's in my 37 Buick and 40 LaSalle.

The article is in Newsletter LVII Number 8 2010. It will be posted on the ACDCLUB.ORG site in a few days in the newsletters section of the forum.

[Niel Hoback]

Thanks for the warning. I generally take info like that with a grain or two of salt, but having googled it and asked around, its very true. Extended life coolant is not for extended life cars. Again, thanks for the heads up.

[chopt50wgn]

The extended life coolant on the market today pose major issues , the biggest one is electroylsis. Electroylsis happens as the coolant gets older. As it passes over the different metals in the car like aluminum head, steel blocks the coolant gets acidic. And over time breaks down and starts to generate electricity. Now it is very small amounts but it stll can do major damage to a cooling system. And that goes for the new cars as well. Most people today see the coolant is made to go 150,000 mile. Well working in the cooling industry, I have seen many radiators that have been eaten apart from the inside out from the "long life" coolants. All 50/50 mix coolants whether it is the green/yellow, or any of the other colors out there should be changed every 2 years regardless of the make and model.

[desoto1939]

Ok. The newere cars have AF in them when they left the factory. When you check the owners manual they state not to change till 100K or 75k based onthe car manufacturer.

I do not that the anti rust agents breakdown over time and when this happens this is when you get more chnaces of rusting and then leaks can occur.

In the older cars I add a can pint ever year of Antirust preventor and check the level for freezing. But I would say a good chnage would be every 5 at the most just to get new Af and the anti rust inhib into the cast iron blocks.

What is everyone doing on their old and also modern cars.

rich hartung

[Don Coatney]

I have drained the coolent in my engine twice in the past 6 years/40,000 + miles. Once because I had a freeze plug leaking and earlier this year when I had to replace my aftermarket engine temperature gauge. Both times my old coolant came out green with only a small brown tint. And the lower petcock on my engine block showed a good flow once opened. So I do believe my engine block is still clean. Both times I topped off with new green 50/50 (Prestone I think). I have not yet read anything on this "long life" stuff but as Niel said I take most of this as advertising scare tactics.

[Young Ed]

That long life stuff causes issues even in the new cars! I know a lot of people that drain it out of their modern stuff and put green in.

[Captain Neon]

My concern with this posting is where it states that:

1) you cannot tell by the colour, however, extended life organic antifreeze is always red.

2) Prestone bad, Xerex good. It looks like a scare tactic advertisement that grew legs.

As I say from time to time, just a little information is dangerous. Get the whole story. How many people that have been using regular green Prestone or other brand, are being scared into using Peak and Xerex simply because that was a recommended brand after the dire warning of the red Extended Life antifreeze?

It reminds me of Amway's scare tactic of Proctor & Gamble donates money to <insert evil entity here> that comes up from time to time.

I had been wondering if I was better off or at least no difference if I switched the red antifreeze in the wife's '09 PT Cruiser to green this fall. Thanks for that info, Ed.

[desoto1939]

I called the Technical Service representative at Zerex this morning to confirm what is being posted about Extended Life Antifreeze.

The gentleman that I spoke also has several antique cars so I had a good tech to talk about this issue.

He also stated that he would not used the extended Life AF in the old cars. We need to use the Inorganic Additive Technology IAT based AF. Zerez Orginal Formula which is a LOW Silicate AF which is still the old green is the Zerex product that he recommends.

The Zerez Orginal Green is in a white container when you are looking for it at your local auto supply center.

Rich Hartung

Desoto1939@aol

[Captain Neon]

I called the Technical Service representative at Zerex this morning to confirm what is being posted about Extended Life Antifreeze.

The gentleman that I spoke also has several antique cars so I had a good tech to talk about this issue.

He also stated that he would not used the extended Life AF in the old cars. We need to use the Inorganic Additive Technology IAT based AF. Zerez Orginal Formula which is a LOW Silicate AF which is still the old green is the Zerex product that he recommends.

The Zerez Orginal Green is in a white container when you are looking for it at your local auto supply center.

Rich Hartung

Desoto1939@aol

Why didn't you call Prestone and get their opinion? The original post says that ALL Prestone products are dangerous. It already said that green Xerex in a white jug is just fine. Of course a representative of Xerex is going to plug their product and choose not to reference an other product.

If you ask me which Macaroni & Cheese is the best, as an employee of a competing company, I am not going to recommend Kraft or ConAgra.

[desoto1939]

Why didn't you call Prestone and get their opinion? The original post says that ALL Prestone products are dangerous. It already said that green Xerex in a white jug is just fine. Of course a representative of Xerex is going to plug their product and choose not to reference an other product.

If you ask me which Macaroni & Cheese is the best, as an employee of a competing company, I am not going to recommend Kraft or ConAgra.

Captain.

If you look at the posts I am the only only one on the forum that even tried to verify what was in the original psot on the AACA and also the ACD forum.

But I guess that is not good enough for you guys. I called Zerx becasue this is a product that was lsited as being safe and just wanted to make sure they still have the product.

So now I called one company so if you want to verify then lookup on the web and get the Prestone Tech center and you call since you are knocking me for not calling. i did this call this morning while at work. I was just trying to be a good forum member but I quess in your account I did not go far enough.

So do not look for me to post replys to people when asking for information on which fuel pump the AC588 fits or for me to look in my various listings of manuals to verify if this or that will fit on someones old MoPAr.

i tought this was a forum to discuss and post information and to help the members but no for someone to get lambasted for not calling all of the manufacturers. If its that important to you then you call/

Rich Hartung:rolleyes:

[Captain Neon]

The point I am making is that Prestone seems unfairly maligned when it states that ALL Prestone products are unacceptable. Seems fishy to me. I understand that the red extended life antifreeze with OAT may not be a good choice, but I have been doing my due diligence and have found nothing stating that Prestone is a bad product; only extended use antifreezes using OAT.

In fact, the article that has been heavily quoted does not mention any good or bad brands. It is almost as if some one with a financial benefit in selling Peak and Xerex brands plugged those specific brands while possibly unfairly maligning Prestone as Prestone is the most popular brand in the United States.

I even pointed out my hesitancy in taking the entire article as fact since Prestone is specifically maligned very similar to the e-mail that gets forwarded around (typically by "Amway Independent Business Owners") how Proctor & Gamble makes significant contributions to any of a plethora of nefarious groups.

That is why I criticised you for checking with Xerex and not Prestone. It matters not if Xerex still makes their green antifreeze in the white jug if 1) it ain't readily available in one's community or 2) have used Prestone for generations and are reticent to change due to a website posting of questionable provenence.

Does one call the Ford dealer for an objective opinion on a Dodge Challenger? Of course not, any one with an ounce of sense knows that the Ford dealer is going to try to sell you a Mustang, and spin every difference between the Mustang and the Challenger as a plus for the Mustang. So why call the Xerex guy to validate whether or not their product is any good when said article already says that it is?

My company buys competitive product in the retail market and compares it to our product. We know the differences between our product and our competition, and we know depending on one's expected results which product will meet the customers expectations. I'd be a fool, however, to state that my lesser known brand is equal or worse than my competitor, I will tell you why my product is superior. I don't want you to buy my competitor's product, I want you to buy mine.

[desoto1939]

I called the Technical Service representative at Zerex this morning to confirm what is being posted about Extended Life Antifreeze.

The gentleman that I spoke also has several antique cars so I had a good tech to talk about this issue.

He also stated that he would not used the extended Life AF in the old cars. We need to use the Inorganic Additive Technology IAT based AF. Zerez Orginal Formula which is a LOW Silicate AF which is still the old green is the Zerex product that he recommends.

The Zerez Orginal Green is in a white container when you are looking for it at your local auto supply center.

Rich Hartung

Desoto1939@aol

Yes I called Zerex because not to get him to recommend his product but to validate that the extend AF is not recmomended for our cars. And yes he did verify that the Zeriz IAT AF is a product that can be used in our older cars. If it bothers you so much and maybe you have vested interest in Prestone then why don't you call Prestone to get their unbiased opinion. I did my part now do your part if you are having a problem with me doing some form of investigating. If you do not like my results then just take the information as information and do what you want with it. I was not put here on the earth to make everyone happy but i guess you must have gotten out of the wrong side of the bed this morning.

Now you call Prestone can document the finds from them. This is what you need to do if it bothers you so much. Again I am just a messenger so shot me becasue you do not like what has been told to me from a Tech Service rep.

You are not the expert either, but if you are then state your credentials and then backup the reasons why one or none of the AF manufactures are any good or not.

Trying to helpful and you get your rearend handed to you on a plate. Sorry guy do not ask me for help. I just tried to substaniate that the IAT AF is what we should be using. Now go put what ever type of AF in your car and use it becasue I really do not care.

Rich Hartung

Now you call Prestone and see if they can recommend one of their AF that have IAT additives.

[Flatie46]

I own a '70 chevy truck that I have always taken good care of. I've always tried to buy "the good stuff" when I bought parts, oils, filters, hoses ect. When they offered the long life 100,000 mile antifreeze I bought some for my truck. I don't remeber for sure what brand it was, it was a name brand I do remember the color was orange when mixed. This was the worst thing I've ever done for my truck. I changed and flushed the system filled it up and drove it thru the winter and didn't even check it till the next winter. When the heater core busted. Now that can happen on any older vehicle but when I changed it I noticed an almost clear plastic like build up in it. It didn't dawn on me then what it was but when I gave my radiator hose a squeeze and it sounded like some kind of coating was breaking loose inside I knew something wasn't right. I flushed the system a couple times and changed all the hoses. They all had an almost ice looking plastic built up on the inside and were very brittle. Well I can't say how many miles it was later, I didn't keep track but not many the head gaskett blew. It may or may not have had something to do with the antifreeze, I think it did. I don't remeber reading on the jug not to put it in older vehicles and I do read labels. All I can say is I remember squeezing the hoses and they sounded like they were breaking inside. 100,000 miles my butt! No, I wouldn't put it in and old car or a new car.

[desoto1939]

The point I am making is that Prestone seems unfairly maligned when it states that ALL Prestone products are unacceptable. Seems fishy to me. I understand that the red extended life antifreeze with OAT may not be a good choice, but I have been doing my due diligence and have found nothing stating that Prestone is a bad product; only extended use antifreezes using OAT.

In fact, the article that has been heavily quoted does not mention any good or bad brands. It is almost as if some one with a financial benefit in selling Peak and Xerex brands plugged those specific brands while possibly unfairly maligning Prestone as Prestone is the most popular brand in the United States.

I even pointed out my hesitancy in taking the entire article as fact since Prestone is specifically maligned very similar to the e-mail that gets forwarded around (typically by "Amway Independent Business Owners") how Proctor & Gamble makes significant contributions to any of a plethora of nefarious groups.

That is why I criticised you for checking with Xerex and not Prestone. It matters not if Xerex still makes their green antifreeze in the white jug if 1) it ain't readily available in one's community or 2) have used Prestone for generations and are reticent to change due to a website posting of questionable provenence.

Does one call the Ford dealer for an objective opinion on a Dodge Challenger? Of course not, any one with an ounce of sense knows that the Ford dealer is going to try to sell you a Mustang, and spin every difference between the Mustang and the Challenger as a plus for the Mustang. So why call the Xerex guy to validate whether or not their product is any good when said article already says that it is?

My company buys competitive product in the retail market and compares it to our product. We know the differences between our product and our competition, and we know depending on one's expected results which product will meet the customers expectations. I'd be a fool, however, to state that my lesser known brand is equal or worse than my competitor, I will tell you why my product is superior. I don't want you to buy my competitor's product, I want you to buy mine.

Hey Captain,

If you had done your part and also had called Prestone you would have found out that they do not make any Antifreeze that is NOT extended Life. So they do not have any acceptable AF for our cars. Since you coulod not take the initiative to call I did it for you. So I guess the recommendation for the Zerex is a good one according to their rep.

Prestone is also recomending to flush the rad system before the 5 years when you have the extend AF in our modern cars. So they are even recomedding not to take the product to the limits that as set bu the factory.

Now what are you comments back to me on this topic I gues you now want me to investigate the other brands well I will leave this up to you to do some investigating on your own behalf.

Rich Hartung

[Tom Skinner]

GarbageState,

Thanks for the heads up.

We all appreciate being educated here on the p15-d24 Forum.

I will have to drain my Prestone out and buy the green Zerex in the White container.

Thanks again even from Rich and Captain Neon.

This reminds me of a Latin Saying I learned in School.

"de gustibus non est disputandum"

There is no disputing eachother's tastes (in things).

So true.

Tom

Huntersville, NC

[Young Ed]

FYI for everyone I don't think its critical to get green zerex in the white container. The critical part is the green apparently now old fashioned antifreeze. I use the napa stuff in all my cars and its fine.

[Greenbomb]

Hmmmm....The heater in my 2000 Chevy PU won't get warm, like the heatercore is plugged up. It's got the pink AF in it. That may be the culprit. Thanks for the info.

[T120]

Antifreeze... An interesting subject.I hadn't really paid attention to it til now and checked in the garage to see the container I've been using to top up

the coolant.The container I have is Prestone extended life (OAT).I've used Prestone for years,sometimes other brands as well -depending on price,antifreeze is antifreeze - right?.. (ethylene glycol plus rust inhibitors).I guess that is no longer quite true.

There seems to be a lot of conflicting ideas on what is safe for corrosion protection for different alloys (copper,brass solder,aluminum) and also what is acceptable if mixing antifreezes.Some recommend no more than a 10% mix is acceptable if topping up with a different antifreeze.While others say any mixing is risky and can actually speed up corrosion as well as cause other problems.I'm no chemist...

...Professor Greeniac comments on the Shell extended life antifreeze..

FAQ

Q. Why have auto and truck manufacturers moved from traditional IAT type coolants to OAT coolants?

A. OAT coolants provide extended life but also run into fewer problems in some cases. For instance, overconcentration of silicates in IAT type coolants can lead to silicate gelation. This can lead to plugging of small passages and loss of heat transfer.

Q. Do other manufacturers use OAT nitrite and amine free coolants?

A. Yes, Shell Rotella Ultra ELC, Mobil Delvac, Final Charge and Fleetguard ES Compleat OAT (Nitrite free).

Q. Can I mix the different kinds of coolants?

A. The systems are not necessarily forgiving of mixing of different coolants. There are circumstances where an unfavorable mixture can cause an increase in corrosion. And adding traditional coolant to an OAT will shorten the life of the OAT. International recommends using only the approved coolant with the 2010 cooling packages.

Q. Can I use the new coolant with older engines and cooling packages?

A. Any vehicle approved for use with OAT coolants are approved to run Rotella Ultra ELC, the new coolant is backwards compatible with current OAT coolants. It cannot be used with very old systems where traditional IAT coolant was used.

..I guess I'll have to look around for some original formula (IAT) green antifreeze

Edited August 2, 2011 by Ralph D25cpe

[desoto1939]

Last night I went to three auto supply chains near Valley Forge, PA suburbs of Philadelphia

.

Each store had the IAT or regular GREEN Antifreeze instock. I did notice that there was only one row for the old standrad Green. They were stocking lots of different brands of the Extended Life AF.

The cost ran from no name to brand names from 10.99 to 14.99

I went to local store, Autozone and NAPA. NAPA was the highest for their own NAPA brand. Autozone was the cheapest for their brand. the local store was in the middle for PEAK regular green AF

I spoke to the Tech rep from Zerex yesterday and he informed me that there should not be any concern about not finding the standard Green AF since 45% of all registered vehicles still require the standard green AF.

You might have to look harder to find it on the shelfs becuse the store will carry more of the Extended AF varieties.

Rich Hartung

[Captain Neon]

I have been doing my own due diligence, and have been only able to find two situations where OAT and HOAT antifreeze has caused problems. One is the oft quoted story about the Bentley that developed leaks, and then factory DexCool that the owners had allowed to run low.

1) The Bentley owner never tells us which brand of antifreeze was actually used. Simply that it wasn't his regular brand.

2) No chemistry is mentioned any where how OAT can eat up lead or silicone. My own experience with organic acids (ex. acetic, i.e. vinegar) is that they would less corrosive than inorganic acids (ex. sulfuric, i.e. battery acid)

3) No mention of how long these antifreezes were allowed to circulate in the system. Electrolysis? Mentioned earlier.

I guess the way I see it. DexCool and other red coloured antifreezes may be bad actors. Not really sure. We have one anecdotal story.

I called Prestone also. The young man I spoke with, Curtis, was quite adamant that their green antifreeze in the yellow bottle is perfectly safe for our cars, but as Rich noted one should not run it for 5 years. He stated that they have never had a substantiated claim of their products devouring lead or silicone. He stated that there were no ingredients in their antifreeze that could produce the damage mentioned in the article. Electrolysis after running the same antifreeze for an extended length of time will do the sort of damage mentioned.

We have one anecdotal story of a Bentley getting its gaskets eaten up that has been circulating and has gotten a life of its own. We have two anecdotal stories on this forum of two people that have been using Prestone without trouble for years. One changes his antifreeze every fall, and the other about 20K miles between changes.

I think that if one has been using green Prestone in the yellow bottle without trouble, you shouldn't worry about it, esp. if you change every couple of years. Prestone has been calling this a universal "extended use" antifreeze for at least 5 years, if not longer.

Change to Xerex, Peak, or NAPA if that makes you feel better, but I think Prestone has been unfairly maligned.

[Don Coatney]

Having worked in the food industry for several years I know that food plants who produce major brand products do not change the ingreadents when they produce house brand products. They simply change the packaging label. So when buying cheese you get exactly the same product with the house brand product as you do with the brand product. I fully believe it is the same with antifreeze, motor oil, and most other packaged products.

[Captain Neon]

Having worked in the food industry for several years I know that food plants who produce major brand products do not change the ingreadents when they produce house brand products. They simply change the packaging label. So when buying cheese you get exactly the same product with the house brand product as you do with the brand product. I fully believe it is the same with antifreeze, motor oil, and most other packaged products.

Things are actually changing in the food industry. At least at my plant, brands do matter. You would be amased at how many different recipes we have for just white mashed potatoes. Every body wants the mashed potatoes sold at their restaurant or in their store to be different from the competition.