Engine Swap From 218 to Spitfire

[mrmcnew49]

I have a 1941 D19 Dodge fluid drive that I have owned for almost 20 years. I purchased the car knowing it had a rod knock and had every intention of repairing it but instead used the car for Ice Cream trips and a parade or two. About 10 years ago I drove a friends son and girl friend to the prom in it. On the way home the rod bearing must have spun so the car has been parked since then. Another friend found a 1947 C38 Chrysler Windsor that had an overhauled engine in it that had been sitting, they said, since the engine was rebuilt. The car was sitting out in a field and it had rusted out the floor and center posts. The people had the receipts from the rebuild back in 1984 so I decided to buy the car and use the engine in the 41 Dodge. Now I'm reading that the 1947 C38 Spitfire engine is longer. We have looked at both cars and there's not much room between the fan and radiator for a 2 inch longer motor and I'm also not sure about the bell housing, crank and other things like that. Both cars are fluid drive. I could sure use some advice on just what would be involved in switching engine or if maybe I should just try to find another good running 218. Thanks in advance for any advice or information. I'm new to this forum stuff so if I'm not doing something right please let me know.

Ron McNew

[greg g]

There has been lots of discussion regarding short block to long block (23.5 to 25inches)

has been discussed many times on the forum. Use the search function, and you will porbably find lots of food for thought. It depends on you level of skill, but it a decent do at home project. The first mod it to mount the radiator o the front side of the mount assembly. You may also need to notch the front cross member to clear the crank pulley/vibration damper. But all who have done it say its worth it for the added power.

Have a look see throughthe searches then bring you questions back, Welcom and good luck with your project.

[mrmcnew49]

Thanks for the information and I'll try the search engine tonight. I'm new to this forum stuff. It sounds like something I'm going to attempt for sure if those are the only modifications I have to make to the Dodge. I just didn't want to start cutting on it, changing engine mount and all that because it is a nice original car. Not a show car in anyway but a presentable driver. It still has the tire changing instructions in the hub caps. It also has some rust, needs all new glass, fender welt and many other things but it is fun to drive so I think I'll be installing the Spitfire. Thanks again

[Don Coatney]

I swapped a long block Desoto engine into my P-15. Follow the links below for pictures of the modifications I had to do. Ask questions after you view the pictures.

http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v65/DonCoatney/Radiator/?start=all

http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v65/DonCoatney/Engine/?start=all

[mrmcnew49]

Thanks the photo tell the story really well. I haven't had a chance to compare the photos to my 41 D19 but from my memory it looks the same. Nice job on the cross member. I'm still considering the project because the old D19 is all original and I have reservation about the conversion. I also realize that it was under powered. I don't think it would change the value of the car all that much so I will most likely do the swap and save the old engine should I ever sell the car to someone else. Thanks for the link to the photos and information.

[mrmcnew49]

Well I decided to try the engine swap from the 218 to the long block Spitfire engine. We pulled the engine out of the 47 Winsor after putting a few new tune-up parts and a head gasket on it. The engine ran great so my friend pulled it out and painted it and cleaned it up for the installation. I pulled the old D19 out of the barn after sitting for 16 years and had it running in just a hour or so. The brakes were locked up and the rod was still knocking like it was 16 years ago when I parked it there. We finally broke loose the brakes and drove the car a mile to Jerry's garage where he started the engine swap. The Spitfire is sitting in the car now but the steering gear box is in the way of the distributor making it impossible to install the cap. I can see no way to correct this problem. Is there something I'm missing? I'll keep searching the forums and attach some photos. Thanks for any help.

[Don Coatney]

Can you post pictures? I do not have a distributor/steering box issue with my long block install.

[martybose]

It almost sounds like you've installed the long block into a bare frame with the radiator in the original position. If so, you will need to move the radiator forward by reversing the mount, then you can move the engine forward. If you don't do this, you will find that the body won't fit back on because the back of the engine is in the way. You may need to modify the crossmember to get clearance for the front pulley as part of this move.

Marty

Edited July 4, 2010 by martybose
added more info.

[Don Coatney]

What bellhousing did you use?

[mrmcnew49]

I used the original 1941 D19 bell housing. We have pulled off the front clip and radiator so the radiator isn't a problem. The bell housings looked the same and the mounts all lined up. We replaced all the mounts and had too redrill the front cross member for the front mounts. We then noticed that's there's no way to put the distributor cap on because of the steering gear box. I will have some photos later this afternoon. Thanks for the help.

[mrmcnew49]

Here a a few photos of the problem. It looks like my engines sits much lower.

Thanks,

[greg g]

Couple things you can check. Are the legs on the front motor mount on the other engine longer, which would raise up the engine? You could make some spacers out of metal or even thick rubber to gain some clearence with the current set up.

Also a note regarding you distributor. the wire that connects the coil terminal to the points needs to very flexible, to allow the breaker plae to move to advance and retard the timing. The green wire looks like it is quite stiff and the way its kinked, probably doesn't allow the plate to move much.

[mrmcnew49]

We have checked the front mounting plate from the 47 Winsor and it is exactly the same part. We have also lifted the engine so the distributor cap would clear the steering gear box but it would take over 2 inches of spacer in the front. That would change the angle on the transmission unless I raise the back motor mount also but then that would create other problems. I'll be changing the wire in the distributor and thanks for that information I have run into that problem in the past and forgot all about it.

[Plymouthy Adams]

front engine mount brackets are not all the same..each is of a different design in stance and height on the average..have you considered transferring your original engine mount to the larger engine? This may give yo the distributor clearance..by looking the 251 mount has a much wider stance and sits on the chassis different from your car..the application of the mounts are stamped with the model number to which it applies

[mrmcnew49]

I have both front engine mounts and they look identical and measure the same every way I can measure them. We used the original mount off the 218 in the 41 Dodge D19 with new motor and trans mounts. That's what you see in the photos. I will check for stampings on both front plates but changing them would not give me any more lift in the front. It's hard to get a real good photo of the clearance problem but the motor would have to come up a long way.

[Plymouthy Adams]

Just food for thought, I have different ones at the house and their profiles are quite different..

[tinlizzy]

From looking at the pics of engine in place something just doesn't look right. 2" longer or 2' shorter doesn't look like either would work on missing the steering? For the distributor to clear the engine would have to be higher or the steering box would need to be lower regardless. How did the 23" engine clear? I mean it seems to me the 23" block would also run into problems clearing the steering box. I have a 25" spitfire in my 48 truck and the distributor is not even close and it had a 23" originally. Did you use the fluid drive tranny and bellhousing that came with the car or the one that came with the spitfire? Are they the same? My engine sits a whole lot higher and the only thing I had to do was notch the bottom of the radiator housing to clear the pulley and use the existing holes forward of motor mount to the frame to support the engine mount. Used the existing bell housing and tranny that came with the truck. I realize cars and trucks are different but I can't see where 2" would clear the steering box looks like you will need 4" to really get clearance unless you raise the engine. Do you have the right mounts under bell housing?

[mrmcnew49]

I used new mounts and they look and the same as the old ones except the old ones had started to rot. I never had any clearance problems with the 218 in the car and I'm using the original fluid drive trans, bell housing, clutch, pressure plate and most of the original 218 parts. I wish I would have take some photos of the engine before we pulled it out. The 218 spun a rod bearing and now that we have it torn down I'm going to have the crank turned, recondition the rods, rings and put it back stock. I will post some photos of the 218 when I get it back in the car. The Spitfire engine had been rebuilt years ago and they never used the car a 47 Winsor so I bought the complete car just for the engine and scraped out the car which was a sad thing to do but it had sit in a field so long it had rusted up into the center post and the whole bottom of the car was gone. I also feel like you that the 2 inches isn't going to be enough to clear the gear box after looking at it so long but we'll see in a few weeks when I put the 218 back in.

[Andydodge]

Have you thought about chasing up some of the Canadians on the furum and see if they can do some sort of comparision as don't they only use the 25" engine from 1937 exclusively?..........also have you compared the new & old engine mount plate that bolts behind the timing cover?..........btw that problem you have is similar to what I had when I considered swaping the 201 engine with a 250 engine from a later Oz mopar.......the oil pump in the 2" longer engine is 1" further forward than that in the 201 and would sit right where the RHD steering box lives............lol............as I mentioned, see what the canadians can suggest...........andyd

[Don Coatney]

I used my original P-15 bellhousing. I wonder if the fluid drive bellhousing may be the issue. Pictured below is a fluid drive bellhousing (I am not sure what this bellhousing is from) and my P-15 bellhousing. I wonder if the fluid drive bellhousing places the engine further forward and this causes the clearance issue?

[YukonJack]

I have both front engine mounts and they look identical and measure the same every way I can measure them. We used the original mount off the 218 in the 41 Dodge D19 with new motor and trans mounts. That's what you see in the photos. I will check for stampings on both front plates but changing them would not give me any more lift in the front. It's hard to get a real good photo of the clearance problem but the motor would have to come up a long way.

I'm probably crazy but is it possible the 41 Dodge steering box is mounted higher than the P15's. In the photo of the installed engine the steering box looks taller than the side shot of Dons engine. Just a thought

[40phil41]

FWIW, here is a photo of my distributor location. Note,

(1) this is a Canadian 1940 Dodge Model D14 which originally came with a 25 in. long block,

(2) it currently has a D24 engine which is also a 25 in. long block, and

(3) I hade to rotate the distributor for the vacuum advance to clear the steering box when setting the timing, but otherwise the distributor does clear the steering box.

Phil

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[mrmcnew49]

Thanks to all of you for all the photos and information. I decided to just rebuild the original 218 engine. I will post some pictures of the engine when I get it back together and sitting in the car. I just got back the crank and rods from being reconditioned and now I have decided to have the cylinders bored so it will be awhile before I get it back in the car. Thanks Again

[mrmcnew49]

Well after a few months of machine work, chasing down parts and a major cash investment the original engine was set back in the car just today. Jerry took a few photos so everyone could see that the distributor has all the clearance it needs now. Like you pointed out the differance must be in the way the steering gear box mounts in the car between the US and Canada built D19's. I can honestly say that the long motor will not work in the 41 Dodge D19. I will get some better photos posted to show the difference. We hope to have it running this weekend and it should last a long time. I still have the Spitfire out of the 47 Windsor that runs very well. It was rebuilt years ago and I have the bills. The car had sit for 15 years or more and with some new plugs and fuel Jerry had it running like a clock. If anyone is interested in buying the Spitfire motor I would like to sell it. Thanks again to all of you for the help.

[oldodge41]

Too late to help you, sorry, but your post really helps me as I was thinking of doing the same swap in my D-19. Here is a pic of my distributor to steering box clearance. I am curently running a 230C.I. from a '48 Dodge. I have the original 218 that I could rebuild also. The 230 runs good so I will probably stick with it for now.

Edited November 6, 2010 by oldodge41