Quirky Registration and Title

[shakespearesdad]

I received my '53 Cranbrook from my Grandmother via an Uncle. I have the original 1953 New Mexico title. The vehicle number on the title is the # on the engine, P24******. The number on the riveted plate on the door sill is: L3215705. This number appears nowhere on the title.

Also, the car is listed as an 8 cylinder Fury.????

I haven't gotten it registered in Texas yet, but I'm sure that I will have a few problems.

What number appears on your paperwork?

[adam_knox]

I had the same issue about the engine # on my title. California in the 40's and 50's used the engine # for the vin on the title. Here in Wisconsin I didn't have a problem transfering the title over. Explained to the DMV employee and they switched the numbers (I had an appraisal done as well which showed the body # and engine # on the car). Believe it or not, it was the insurance company that caught the number difference. So when I was at the DMV they put the body number down for the VIN instead of the engine #. So just use a smile and hopefully tranfering the title won't be too bad.

As for the Fury listing, I haven't a clue. Is the car an 8 cylinder? :confused:There's got to be some logic in there somewhere, but Sherlock Holmes I am not! Congrats on the Cranbrook ownership, hope all goes smoothly!

[Norm's Coupe]

On my 48 coupe the title shows the engine number as the Vin number. My car has always been titled in Wisconsin. Back when the car was originally titled in 1948 they used the engine numbers instead of the body numbers. So.......when I bought the car, the title only had the engine number on it. I simply used that title for the DMV to transfer ownership and register it. When the DMV made up my new title, they only used the engine number as the Vin number. Body number does not appear on the title at all. So........if the engine number was used on the old title, you should be able to register the car using the same number, along with the old title.

[P-12 Tommy]

Same on my '41 P-12. Engine number on the title.

Tom

[TodFitch]

I received my '53 Cranbrook from my Grandmother via an Uncle. I have the original 1953 New Mexico title. The vehicle number on the title is the # on the engine, P24******. The number on the riveted plate on the door sill is: L3215705. This number appears nowhere on the title.

Also, the car is listed as an 8 cylinder Fury.????

I haven't gotten it registered in Texas yet, but I'm sure that I will have a few problems.

What number appears on your paperwork?

My 1933 had the engine number on the NY paperwork. Not uncommon in that era.

If your initial "L" in the number is actually a "1" then the number makes sense for a 1953 Plymouth with 6 cylinder engine made in Detroit (13,070,001 to 13,505,004).

[greg g]

Well I think Norm ment well when he used the term body number, but that is yet another monkey wrench. Many states used engine numbers to title cars, all well and good whe the care were new but as the years accumulated engines were changed as maintenence procedures. Not a problem till ownership changed. Then it might have been adressed might not have been. Plus the term VIN did not apply till the uniform manufacturers code kicked in some time in the late 60's earlkky 70's.

So what we have on these old MOPARS is the engine number, the manufacturere's serial number usually on a plate one one of the A pillars, and the Body number. Since bodys were made by a subcontractor (Briggs Corporation) they assigned the number found on the tag on the firewall. And not a VIN number like found on a new car.

Perhaps you can get a police official to examine you car and verify through an affidavit that the numbers are attached to the car and agree with you paperwork.

State laws applied to title and which number to use are all over the board. As are proof of ownership processes. I gues we are lucky in that we did not have vehicle titles here till 72. as such any car older than that, posession is the arbitor. For eample I have a 60 AH sprite that I have no paper work on, as it was a competitionn vehicle and hadn't been registered since 63. All I need to is take a tracing of the serial number plate, and fill out an affidavit that says I own it. I will then be issued a transferable registration document that I can sell the car on if I choose to do so.

You might want to check with your DMV before you attempt to go throughthe process and see what hoops you need to jump through.

[Norm's Coupe]

Greg,

Actually, they did evidently address the problem of people changing engines in old cars here in Wisconsin. My coupes engine was changed at some point in time. Right on my title, it gives the old engine number and says it was replaced by the new engine number. Haven't looked at that in years, but also believe it gives the mileage the engines were swapped. So.....they used the new engine for the VIN number on the title.

[Jim Saraceno]

My title has the body serial number. When I first bought the car, it's title said it was some other make, don't remember what, but the make was totally off although the serial number was correct.

The only thing I had to do to correct it was to stop by a police station and have an officer sign off that the car was indeed a 35 Plymouth.

[desoto1939]

I would suggest that you take several digital pictures of the car so you have extra proof of the car.

Take one of the car, then one the front door piller that has the serial number and plate attached. MAke sure you get good pictures of the car with the car door open so they can verify that it is the same car.

Also the Body number plate onthe firewall and of the engine number on the block if you can get a good picture of this area.

Digitals are great since you have an instant picture and you can send them via email. Also set your camera up so that it is set in the email mode and also one set with high reolution.

Pictures are always your best proof of the data.

Another option might be to get the car reqistered in a southern state that does not question the data numbers. Use the VIN number on the car and engine number. Get the registration and then have it registered in your state.

This might cost some extra dollars but might make the process go smoother. This is just an idea.

rich Hartung

[Merle Coggins]

When I bought my truck the Iowa title used the truck serial number but the last digit was misprinted as an "S" instead of a "5". When I transfered the title to me I filled out the necessary paperwork and mailed it to the Wisconsin DMV, since I wasn't in a hurry to get it. Before I sent it all in I made a photocopy of the original title, mainly because it held the name and address of the guy I bought it from plus the name and address of the owner previous to him. As it turns out that photocopy came in handy. When I got my title and new plates in the mail I noticed that the new title had the old Iowa title number as the VIN. So I figured if they were going to have to correct it they might as well correct it to get rid of the original misprint in the serial number. So I took photos of the truck's serial number, my photocopy of the Iowa title, and my new incorrect title to the DMV office and pointed out their mistake. They offered to correct it at no charge, but even though I showed them the picture of the truck's serial number the new title still has the same misprint as the original Iowa title. The last digit is still an "S" instead of a "5".

Oh well... I know what it really is.

Merle

[Norm's Coupe]

When I bought my truck the Iowa title used the truck serial number but the last digit was misprinted as an "S" instead of a "5". When I transfered the title to me I filled out the necessary paperwork and mailed it to the Wisconsin DMV, since I wasn't in a hurry to get it. Before I sent it all in I made a photocopy of the original title, mainly because it held the name and address of the guy I bought it from plus the name and address of the owner previous to him. As it turns out that photocopy came in handy. When I got my title and new plates in the mail I noticed that the new title had the old Iowa title number as the VIN. So I figured if they were going to have to correct it they might as well correct it to get rid of the original misprint in the serial number. So I took photos of the truck's serial number, my photocopy of the Iowa title, and my new incorrect title to the DMV office and pointed out their mistake. They offered to correct it at no charge, but even though I showed them the picture of the truck's serial number the new title still has the same misprint as the original Iowa title. The last digit is still an "S" instead of a "5".

Oh well... I know what it really is.

Merle

Merle, don't you love it when our tax dollars are so well spent. Sounds like they didn't correct anything. Giving them the benefit of the doubt, maybe they couldn't change the number from just a photo. After all, they really don't know where you got that photo. They would probably need to have a state trooper do a physical inspection to make the change. Maybe that's why they didn't change the "S" to the "5".

The bigger question here since you do have plates, is. What happens if the truck is totaled out for some reason? Then when you contact the insurance company for payment, and the numbers on the title don't match the truck. That could be a real hassle to get the claim paid. Even for just a fender bender, the insurance adjuster would cross reference the title VIN to the truck. If they don't match, they could possibly refuse to pay out the claim. Think I'd drive the truck to one of the DMV offices so they can physically look at it and make the necessary changes on the title.

[Captain Neon]

Getting the little old ladies at the DMV to leave their desks for anything but break? Norm, surely you jest.

When I lived in Arkansas, my driver's licence said that I was 6' 10" rather than 6' 1", and because "everyone" knows that a VIN has to have at least one letter they entered my old Minnesota title as the VIN and the VIN as the Minnesota title number. They caught their mistake when Minnesota rejected their paperwork, but then accused ME of having made an error. Talk about a nightmare since I didn't have a photocopy of my old title. Ever since, I have always made a photocopy of my old title before registering any car in a new state. It would probably also be wise to have the copy notarised as equivalent to original, but haven't needed it since.

You seem to forget, Norm, that the folks at the DMV are "underappreciated and overworked civil servants." Who are we to make such a demand as that they actually come outside and verify a VIN?

[Norm's Coupe]

I agree about getting someone away from a desk at the DMV.

I believe you can also drive to any State Patrol station in Wisconsin to have them verify the numbers though. I've never had a need to, but.....have been told you do that if you don't have a title for the car. They inspect it there and I guess they'll give you paper work to take to the DMV.

[TodFitch]

...snip...Who are we to make such a demand as that they actually come outside and verify a VIN?

I guess my experiences at the DMV have been better than average.

In 1974 when I moved from New York to Maryland I took the duplicate bill of sale (Maryland taxed cars coming into the state regardless of how long you owned them) and the New York registration info (car was pre-title year) and a scrap of paper with the serial number, engine number and body number. The New York registration had the engine number on it. I asked if when they did the paperwork they could use the serial number instead of the engine number. The clerk disappeared for a while, when she came back she said the numbers matched (I think she was on the phone with the Chrysler historical people) and issued the Maryland paperwork with the serial number.

In 1978 when I moved to California, they had me bring the car around to a lane beside the building and an inspector came out and verified the serial number matched that on the car. No big fuss at all.

But I don't buy or sell cars very often so maybe I've been lucky. I do know some people locally that go through lots of older cars and they are pretty good at knowing when to give up on the actual paperwork and go the route of "the classic case of lost paperwork" to get a car registered.

[shakespearesdad]

My 1933 had the engine number on the NY paperwork. Not uncommon in that era.

If your initial "L" in the number is actually a "1" then the number makes sense for a 1953 Plymouth with 6 cylinder engine made in Detroit (13,070,001 to 13,505,004).

Yeah, it was a 1 not an L.

Luckily for me, the great state of Texas only cared about getting their money for the registration, and they did not look too hard at the title info. $146.00 later I have my 1953 Texas plates on my Plymouth and they don't expire until 2013, and since the world is gonna end in 2012, I'm good forever!

[Norm's Coupe]

Yeah, it was a 1 not an L.

Luckily for me, the great state of Texas only cared about getting their money for the registration, and they did not look too hard at the title info. $146.00 later I have my 1953 Texas plates on my Plymouth and they don't expire until 2013, and since the world is gonna end in 2012, I'm good forever!

Ahhhh........but what happens if it doesn't end in 2012. Then you'll have to pay at least another $146. I bought the plates for my 48 Plymouth in 1995, and they never expire. Can even transfer them to another old car should I ever want to.

[desoto1939]

In Pa the antique plate is a one shot deal and you own it forever and you can xfer to another car or give it to the next owner.

Also in PA we do not have to have the antique cars inspected since they figure we only trqvel in such limited mileage.

What about in other states.

rich hartung

desoto1939@aol.com

[Norm's Coupe]

In Pa the antique plate is a one shot deal and you own it forever and you can xfer to another car or give it to the next owner.

Also in PA we do not have to have the antique cars inspected since they figure we only trqvel in such limited mileage.

What about in other states.

rich hartung

desoto1939@aol.com

About the same here, except the plates stay with the owner, not the car. Also In Wisconsin if the car is between 20 and 24 years old you can still buy the plates, but.....you have to have it inspected the first time it's registered. If it's 25 years old or older, you never have to have it inspected. Actually, it's not a full inspection here in any case. It's just an emissions for cars between 20 and 24 years old.

[msawdey44]

In Illinois, nobody inspects nothin'--they used to require inspection of pickups every six months, but it was total corruption and has been discontinued, lo these many years. Here, near Chicago, we used to have emissions inspection because of the poor air quality--every year or so I had to fiddle with the MG to get it through. Then the state ran out of money and determined that, although the EPA said they had to do testing, they didn't say what had to be tested, so they stopped testing everything except 1996 and newer, which have OBDC II and can simply be plugged in to check. Finally, the MG runs decently. I'm sort of interested that nobody here, including my insurance agent who, afterall, might be considered to have a stake in the matter, cares at all about the condition of any car that may be on the road. On the other hand, the state inspection situation I've experienced in other states seemed mostly to be a system for generating business for the local garages....

In 1979 I bought a '67 VW beetle that had originally been sold in the Canal Zone (remember that?). When we moved to Vermont later that year, the VT DMV bounced my title transfer application because the number on the Illinois title was quite evidently an engine number. But, it's a small state, everybody knows everybody, and I just had to drive down to Montpelier and let the DMV clerk saunter out and take a look at the VIN plate and make the correction. Even earlier than that, I did an engine swap in a 1961 Ford Consul 315 (anybody ever seen one?) and took the title in to register it. At that point, the IL DMV bounced it because somebody (must have been them, since it was an IL title) had incorrectly typed in the VIN. That time, I had to take it to a Ford dealer who had to fill in the correct VIN and notarize the form.

[Captain Neon]

You act like its a bad thing that vehicles aren't inspected by a "licenced inspector."

I'd love to just send in my registration every year and be done with it like I had in Minnesota. It seems like I just had my Neon, Jeep, and P15 "safety inspected," and it is time to do it again. I ain't got time for such absurdities in my life. I have barely enough time away from work to eat, sleep, and get a shower. I don't have time to schedule an appointment, wait for them to actually get started on the "inspection," and then wait the prescribed 1/2 hour while they "inspect" my car. Then, of course, I have to have anything fixed that was "discovered" during the "inspection" and then return for another "inspection." It's all male bovine excrement if you ask me.

[Norm's Coupe]

We don't have an annual safety inspection here, just the emissions on cars built after 1996. Not sure, but I think they up the year every year. Maybe it's 97 now.

That said. Ben, if you really want to be annoyed by getting the car inspected, you should have lived here in the 70's. Imagine this: Traveling down the highway on your way to an appointment someplace. All of a sudden you come up to a temporary warning sign on the road. Says, "Safety Inspection Ahead". A little past that sign and you come up on a road block by the State Troopers. Then you have to stop for a safety inspection. Sometimes they would just wave you through. Others were stopped. Of course, the ones who got stopped are now going to be late for their appointment.