Swapping an A833 OD into a 1946 WD-15

[lostviking]

On 10/4/2024 at 9:55 AM, Sniper said:

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Edited October 6 by lostviking

[Sniper]

22 minutes ago, lostviking said:

I'm sure he'd rather sell me one...and IF he's selling them, then he knew that.

 

Wasn't responding to you, I was responding to QEC's comment.

[QEC]

Yes, the front bearing retainer registers the transmission input shaft to align with the crankshaft. This 'adapter', as it is called, is simply a flat plate with no registration to the bell housing, only the countersunk screws.  The front bearing retainer is not fat enough to reach through the plate and register to the original bell. MaMopar is very particular about parallel mis-alignment. In fact, there is a section in the 60's & 70's FSM, and no I haven't looked throughout the various years, that specifically deals with aligning the bell to the block and includes part numbers for offset dowels to accomplish the task. Ma says the TIR needs to be less than 0.007".  Threaded holes are simply not placed that accurately. That is why we have dowel pins to between block and bell.

Will it work? No doubt that the parts will bolt up.

Will it damage the front bearing? Very likely.

Will the OP care as long as he gets a few miles out of it? Dunno.

 

And NO, I do not make/sell them. Never have.

My point is that this is not a proper trans adapter but, rather, a bolt pattern changer.

Why does my ME brain care? Just not easy to ignore no matter how detailed the computer generated drawing is. GIGO.

Edited October 6 by QEC

[kencombs]

IF, all caps for a reason, the adapter hole is the same size as the housing hole, one could simply align them before final tightening of the attaching screws.  

 

Or, some adapters have a alignment protrusion on the front side and counterbored on the back for the FBR.

 

I chose not to use an adapter.   My bell, from a 59/60 truck, has the correct size pilot hole.   So, with a little weld buildup, drilling and tapping it bolts up with no added parts.

[lostviking]

AoK has been making and selling these adapters for a number of years. The design hasn't changed, and I haven't heard of anyone having a problem with the basic design. Mine had manufacturing issues, not design issues.

 

Yes, I did think of putting a small step on the bell side to assure the registration, but I didn't. The absolute location of the the four holes in my plate will be nearly perfect. The person who is making it for me will have the holes within the tolerance of the machine. It normally can hold .0005 tolerances. I don't think I"ll have any issues. Although I am considering taking a 6 inch round and making a plate with both bores to act as an alignment. I think that is overkill though...but I did design it.

 

Maybe, if someone has a better understanding of mechanical engineering than AoK, he should contact either Tim Kingsbury or George Asche Jr directly to point out where they messed this up. I've found both of them to be very easy to talk to and happy to share their many decades of knowledge. I believe they are both automotive engineers, and they've been around flathead Mopars since their fathers opened the Chrysler engine plant in Canada in 1935. But hey, you may still know more and everyone makes a mistake right?

 

I see why Tim doesn't come around here anymore. I've been sharing my experiences openly, even when I've made a mistake and had to back track. Maybe I'll just keep what I learn to myself from now on.

[John-T-53]

 Huh? 

[Sniper]

Countersunk bolts are self-aligning. So when you bolt that adapter plate to the bell housing it's going to bolt into the same position every time, theoretically. If it were a free floating setup such as you would have with hex head bolts then there would be opportunity for it to move around. I would Mount up the adapter plate check the run out in accordance with the service manual and adjust it for Center, torque down those bolts make sure everything still in spec and then drill a couple of alignment holes and run a pin through them so that that plate goes on to the same spot every time in the future. Not that you'd have a lot of call for removing it. If it's off, it would not surprise me if the later model offset dial pin that was mentioned would also work on our flatheads to adjust it. The factory does all of that when they built the assembly so theoretically if your adapter plate is perfectly centered on the bell housing, then you should not be any more off than the factory had it. Yeah, some of us can be belt and suspender types. But inherently, we're lazy, LOL. We'd rather do it once, do it right, and never have to do it again. The thing about the adapter plate is that those guys don't know your specific situation. Maybe you swapped out the bell housing, and even the factory will tell you if you do that you need to double check the run out.

Edited October 15 by Sniper

[lostviking]

OK, one member contacted me asking so I'll drop by once.

 

I didn't design this adapter, or come up with the idea. It is the work of Tim Kingsbury and George Asche Jr. They are AoK.

 

A number of years ago, they designed and sold quite a few of these adapter plates, maybe 50 to 100 is a couple batches. The design is sound, and the originals were very well made. There are pictures in Tim's blog showing them, and they looked beautiful.

 

Unfortunately, when George tried to get a few more made, due to demand, he had to find a new shop. That shop didn't do the same job the original shop did. The A833 side has the center hole too small, the bell housing side has the holes not located correctly or countersunk enough to keep the bolt heads from being proud.

 

Those holes must be precisely placed, or it just won't work. Using a CNC mill, you should easily be able to hold .0005 diametral tolerance, but unfortunately, they didn't.

 

The edges of the plates are even just saw cuts. I don't recommend them, and I wish that wasn't true. George is 93 and he only had this batch made because people asked him. I don't think he will offer them again and I don't blame him.

 

I'm going back to making my own. I was able to find via multiple sources enough information to get all the hole patterns correct, but the drawing I got for the bell side, didn't locate the holes up/down in relation to the center hole. I made a guess and had a sheet metal template made. It will bolt very precisely to either the trans or the bell, but on the bell the center hole is sitting .46 too low. I have to make an adjustment and then I'll do another template to test it.

 

Assuming I get it right, I'll do the actual plate. Mine will be 1/2 inch rather than .375 because I want the two top tapped holes to have more threads, and because it still give full engagement of the splines and the pilot bushing.

 

I don't mind helping people doing the swap, but I'm not posting in the thread anymore.

 

People who try to say something that, when built to the design drawing, won't work, when it has worked that many times just piss me off. Say it once, I get irked, go on and on about how the basic design is flawed, then you can kiss the rear end.

Edited November 11 by lostviking

[lostviking]

 

This is the cross section of the old and new transmissions so you can see the different length in relation to the clutch, pp fingers and pilot bushing.

 

If you are doing the swap, you are free to PM me and if I have an answer, I'll share.

[ggdad1951]

5 hours ago, lostviking said:

OK, one member contacted me asking so I'll drop by once.

 

I didn't design this adapter, or come up with the idea. It is the work of Tim Kingsbury and George Asche Jr. They are AoK.

 

A number of years ago, they designed and sold quite a few of these adapter plates, maybe 50 to 100 is a couple batches. The design is sound, and the originals were very well made. There are pictures in Tim's blog showing them, and they looked beautiful.

 

Unfortunately, when George tried to get a few more made, due to demand, he had to find a new shop. That shop didn't do the same job the original shop did. The A833 side has the center hole too small, the bell housing side has the holes not located correctly or countersunk enough to keep the bolt heads from being proud.

 

Those holes must be precisely placed, or it just won't work. Using a CNC mill, you should easily be able to hold .0005 diametral tolerance, but unfortunately, they didn't.

 

The edges of the plates are even just saw cuts. I don't recommend them, and I wish that wasn't true. George is 93 and he only had this batch made because people asked him. I don't think he will offer them again and I don't blame him.

 

I'm going back to making my own. I was able to find via multiple sources enough information to get all the hole patterns correct, but the drawing I got for the bell side, didn't locate the holes up/down in relation to the center hole. I made a guess and had a sheet metal template made. It will bolt very precisely to either the trans or the bell, but on the bell the center hole is sitting .46 too low. I have to make an adjustment and then I'll do another template to test it.

 

Assuming I get it right, I'll do the actual plate. Mine will be 1/2 inch rather than .375 because I want the two top tapped holes to have more threads, and because it still give full engagement of the splines and the pilot bushing.

 

I don't mind helping people doing the swap, but I'm not posting in the thread anymore.

 

People who try to say something that, when built to the design drawing, won't work, when it has worked that many times just piss me off. Say it once, I get irked, go on and on about how the basic design is flawed, then you can kiss the rear end.

 

Devil is in the details.  Glad to see you back on this.  I'd LOVE to see another option for our trucks!