E-85 capable?

[Dennis_MN]

General Motors sells flex-fuel vehicles capable of burning E-85 or 85% ethanol and 15% gasoline. We in the food belt are building new refineries to make ethanol out of corn. I'm not looking for pros or cons of the stuff, but wondering what would it take to make the Pilot House flex-fuel capable?

Would it just be a kit for the carb and fuel pump or is there more to it?

Right now our 10% mixture sells for $3.05 and our 85% mixture sells for $2.39

I have measured the difference a few times in my Ford Ranger, and the drop in MPG takes about $0.25 to balance out. Right now the difference is $0.46 so it would be well worth it. I've been burning 0% ethanol in my pilothouse and that stuff sells for $3.45 per gallon so I could be money ahead if I could make a few changes to burn ethanol.

thanks for your interest

Dennis Sullivan

[Young Ed]

Dennis

I've been pondering this too. I think one of the issues is without all the electronic controls you would have to run E85 exclusively. You'd have to make some changes to get the flathead to run on about 105 octane. Maybe cam swap and milled head? Possibly carb mods too?

[greg g]

I don;t think high octane rating is an issue. What is probable is with an unmodified low compression engine like ours, the efficiency of e 85 would be reduced. So milage and power would probably suffer.

Here is a little blurb on where the problem areas are. Are the old carbs Aluminum???? I believe our pistons are.

The primary differences from non-FFVs is the elimination of bare magnesium, aluminum, and rubber parts in the fuel system, the use of fuel pumps capable of operating with electrically conductive (ethanol) instead of non-conducting dielectric (gasoline) fuel, specially-coated wear-resistant engine parts, fuel injection control systems having a wider range of pulse widths (for injecting approximately 40% more fuel), the selection of stainless steel fuel lines (sometimes lined with plastic), the selection of stainless steel fuel tanks in place of terne fuel tanks, and, in some cases, the use of acid-neutralizing motor oil.

[Tony WestOZ]

The high octane rating is note an issue, it’s more of a waste. The combustion chamber design is not good enough to take advantage of the high octane rating and the advantages it offers.

One of the biggest problem is seals and gaskets. With modern engines, it’s not a problem as they are made to coupe with a wide variety of modern fuels.

It’s a bit like the older diesels are having problems with the modern reduced sulfur fuels. Gaskets and seals start to leak just a little bit more.

One problem with ethanol that has arisen here is that because of the continuous drought the produces used in the manufacturing of ethanol are now too expensive. Two plants have already shut down.

[Young Ed]

If that stuff eats aluminum this is trouble.

[Plymouthy Adams]

funny...Chrysler has been making flex fuel cars for over 10 years...does GM think this is something new?

[PatS....]

I read an article saying that it took about 1.5 liters of regular diesel to produce one liter of ethanol. Not to metion the hit the food chain will take. I don't see it as an answer at all. We have had ethanol blend available for over 10 years now and it doesn't seem to be catching on.

I used it in my 1985 Pontiac 350 and didn't notice any drawbacks.

I guess maybe there is no one solution but maybe a bunch of solutions. Maybe I'll write to Al Gore and see what he says.

[Young Ed]

I still think an e85 flathead would be cool. There's been a few articles in car craft about them using it in many 100s of HP muscle cars. In all those articles I don't recall any mention of special pistons other then to have increased compresion or something to benefit from all that octane rating.

Really how much does the gas touch the piston?

[Dennis_MN]

So far I've used Zero ethonal in my Pilothouse. The Minnesota Street Rod Association has a list of gas stations in Minnesota with non-Oxygenated fuel. So on my trip to Spencer,Iowa I looked up where I could fuel up with the pure gas stuff. Both ways I fueled up at a station in St James Minnesota and put in what they sell as premium.

I was just thinking that as this premium stuff hits $4.00 a gallon It would be nice to see what it takes to use something like 85%. I'm thinking that I could get a kit for my carb and fuel pump which would have the right stuff.

I can't see that alum pistons or heads are a problem because my Ranger built in 2000 burns the stuff. Ford made a big deal out of the fact that every Ranger built in St. Paul in 2000 was Flex Fuel capable. I did pay $100 later to improve the performance by changing a chip in the computer. At least the old Dodge won't need a new computer chip.

Dennis Sullivan

[Dennis_MN]

I found the following links on E-85 that were somewhat usefull.

1. fuel systems needs to avoid alum and Mag or have a special coating. Stainless steel fuel lines are needed. A greater fire hazzard exists and burning under combustion produces an increase acid. Oil changes and types are a consideration. Makes me a little hesitant to want to mess with the stuff.

Here are the links

E-85 links

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/E85

http://farmindustrynews.com/mag/farming_convert_buy_new/

http://flex-fuelchevynews.blogspot.com/2006/03/e85-conversion-kit.html

http://e85vehicles.com/converting-e85.htm

Parts

http://www.then-now.com/The_Cellar/cellar.htm

[Thunder II]

Engine mods, such as a cam re-grind, and raising the compression, are really, no big deal. But, a stainless steel fuel line requirement, would make me question the fuel tank capability and/or life expectancy (sp?). so, hows about a plastic tank, electric fuel pump, and copper lines????? Easy enough so far. But what about the carb? Maybe I should read the links before I start asking dumb questions...

[Guest bigdaisy19k]

I would like to see some info from the car companies and fuel companies themselves... I don't like second hand info...

it would really be great if no changes were needed....me living in the cornhusker state and all....

[Big50Dodge]

I've thought of a motor swap for a diesel. I've made my own biodiesel and could run the truck on that - till it gets cold. Biodiesel gels at a higher temp than dino-diesel. The next problem is getting a diesel engine that will produce about a 100 HP and still fit in the engine bay without serious cutting & welding. Probably better off to do a e-85 conversion on the OEM six.

[Merle Coggins]

If you can find a B-Series Cummins it would probably fit nicely. We have equipment running the 3.9 liter 4 cylinder versions that are producing just over 100 HP. If a 5.9L - 6 cylinder would fit you can get well over 150 HP out of them.

[greg g]

I believe this is the engine of which he speaks. This one found its way from a dually bread van into this 49 Studebaker PU. it came complete with Allison automatic and turbo. The frame is out of a half ton Chevy. He said it is a mighty fine hiway cruiser.

[Merle Coggins]

Yup, sure looks like a 3.9 Cummins to me.