Reckon the Technology isn't so bad after all

[Bryan]

This got me to laughing when I ran across it. Looks vaguely familiar.   2003-2009 Toyota Carrier Assembly, DIFFER 41110-3D551 | Toyota Parts Center (olathetoyota.com)

[Booger]

Yeah no doubt! I have a 10 bolt 3.54 pumpkin that I wanted to swap out the 11 bolt 3.71 pumpkin. (duh that wont work)

Is it possible to Franken-gear those ring and pinion gears?

[Plymouthy Adams]

all that great big ad and you have no clue the ratio......lol and if you were to ask, they probably would not know either, computer says it fits....!!

 

as for Franken-gear....putting this in the stock banjo....will not say it can't be done...just too much work doing it including a visit to a shop to cut axles...money/time not wisely spent......getting a larger TOY axle and installing it....odds are the only things in your way here is lack of initiation and imagination.  

25 minutes ago, Booger said:

 

Is it possible to Franken-gear those ring and pinion gears?

 

[Bryan]

No..I didn't mean using it for ours. Just that it looks similar in style..ring gear, the screw adjusters for carrier bearings, etc

[Plymouthy Adams]

well yes the general design goes way back and widely copied in the industry.....few banjos units still being built....

[Loren]

I have some experience with that particular Toyota differential (except the one I dealt with had a locking differential).

Toyota found out that they had undersized the rear axle for the vehicle and uprated them to the next size bigger later on.

The failure I repaired were the bearings, everything else looked good. Horrible noise. The dealer did not stock any parts, only complete assemblies because they had no technicians capable of rebuilding one.

 

The beauty of the Mopar axle is the removable differential carrier.

It is so easy to pull it out for a ratio change or a rebuild.

If my memory serves me it is called a Hotchkiss design after the French car that first used that type.

Yes, it is an old idea.

In point of fact it has been found that all things (automotive) mechanical had been tried before 1905, including Turbocharging!

The only reason manufacturers use the integral design (such as a Dana 44) is that they are cheap.

The Ford 9 inch is also called a "Straddle" mount type, referring to the way the pinion is lower than the usual hypoid gear set.

The pinion gear kind of straddles the ring gear. They are very strong because of the greater tooth contact BUT because of that they not very efficient.

The Mopar 8.25 (such as used in flathead 6 Plymouths) and the later Mopar 8.75 (1957 on) rear axles are hypoid and therefore are more efficient than the Ford 9 inch but not as strong. The 8.25 axle served well into the V8 era so it is plenty strong enough for any flathead 6. At issue are the ratios available. The lowest commonly available is the 3.54 (I believe there is a 3.36 but haven't seen one).

It is my opinion that the stock Mopar axle is a very good design well executed. You're not going to get an improvement by changing it. If you want an alternate gear ratio there are several between 3.54 and 4.3. Lower numerical ratios also create a new problem. With each step lower you create a taller mountain for the engine to climb every time you let the clutch out. So your highway engine speed might go down but it will take longer to get there. The stock ratio delivered a quarter mile ET of around 20 seconds so there's precious little room for further degradation.

The most elegant solution is an Overdrive which drops the engine rpm 30%. That gives you all the gear ratios you have now plus one more. A T5 gives you one more up and one more down. Instead of three to get to 1 to 1 (high gear) you row through 4, then a fifth gear which is a 28% overdrive ratio.

The beef about Overdrives is expense but that is not necessarily true. As an example: a reproduction Overdrive relay is around $129 but a 6 volt modern relay is $5 to 8 and 12 volt relays are half that. NOS throttle switches can be found as low as $29 rather than $129. They should be only $5 to 10 but I am still looking.

If a person were to feel the need to change the rear axle for strength reasons, my first choice would be the Mopar 8.75 (1957 and later) rear axle. It has a well earned reputation for strength, lots of ratios and limited slip differentials and the fact that it even looks like the stock axle is a plus. You can even get keyed tapered axles if you want them! lol

[Bryan]

I keep seeing the T5 mentioned. Are people putting 5 speeds in their cars?  Would think a 5 speed would only be for trucks.  Would it be a column or floor shifter?

[Plymouthy Adams]

all real transmissions have floor shifter........

[Loren]

The T5 is a floor shifter.

I don't like them.

I have one in a Model A and I hate the doggone thing. Most are sourced from Chevy S10 pickups because the shifter location is better and they have a mechanical speedo drive. The General must have been on crack when he choose the gear ratios in that gear box. I am going to replace the T5 in my Model A with a 1939 V8 transmission. Now all I need is a sucker to take the T5 off my hands.

In praise of the Overdrive, they use the stock column shifter. In fact on the long wheel base cars an Overdrive is a bolt in. The P17s require shortening the drive shaft 6.25 inches and making an extension for the hand brake cable. That's it except for adding the electrical system, which is easy too.

[Sniper]

4 hours ago, Bryan said:

I keep seeing the T5 mentioned. Are people putting 5 speeds in their cars?  Would think a 5 speed would only be for trucks.  Would it be a column or floor shifter?

 Not sure they put the T5 in any truck bigger than an S10.  That T5 is a car transmission.

 

The Mustang 2.95 first gear NWC T5 is a very close match in gear ratios.  The S10 one is horrible in comparison.

 

     stock   MT5     ST5

 

1  2.57      2.95     4.03

2  1.83      1.94     2.37

3  1.00      1.34     1.49

4               1.00     1.00

5               0.73     0.86

 

All this said, an R10 is probably not any more expensive.  Looking at car-parts.com the used one NWC T5 start at $800 and the remans start at $1100 plus core.  Then you need a new driveshaft, speedo cable, deal with the shifter, etc.  Some research is probably warranted.

Edited December 29, 2021 by Sniper

[rockingjd]

I put a T5 in my 49 Fargo. The later transmission from a S 10 had a slightly better/different gear ratios.

 

1352-145

1985 - 86 S10

2.5 L4, 2.8 V6

3.76

2.18

1.42

1.00

0.72

 

 

No debating they are not cheap or easy to find. A R10 conversion has less modifying to be done to install in our cars/trucks.  

[Plymouthy Adams]

On 12/29/2021 at 12:11 PM, Loren said:

The General must have been on crack when he choose the gear ratios in that gear box.

the wide ratio is selected for the less powerful engine for starting off with a loaded vehicle...this wide ratio make for sooner shifts in gears 1 and 2 for that reason, to get you moving...once your legs are under you the other gears are of proper ratio as the other boxes for driving thus this is really what makes them work as well as they do behind the flathead...ability to pull away with les feathering...a well tuned  flathead on smooth level terrain could in a manner forego first altogether but feather will increase....feathering is added wear....the T5 drives different with the wider ratio for a reason...it is for ability to work when called on.

[Loren]

2 hours ago, Plymouthy Adams said:

the wide ratio is selected for the less powerful engine for starting off with a loaded vehicle...this wide ratio make for sooner shifts in gears 1 and 2 for that reason, to get you moving...once your legs are under you the other gears are of proper ratio as the other boxes for driving thus this is really what makes them work as well as they do behind the flathead...ability to pull away with les feathering...a well tuned  flathead on smooth level terrain could in a manner forego first altogether but feather will increase....feathering is added wear....the T5 drives different with the wider ratio for a reason...it is for ability to work when called on.

 

My experience with S10 pickups has colored my opinion of the choices the General has made for me. This I admit.

One truck I had to use from time to time had an automatic and this was the worst! During the 55 mph speed limit era this thing could not be driven 55! You went 50 or 60 but not 55. With the song "I can't drive 55!" playing on the radio the frustration level was to the max. It would bog at close to 55 then shoot past when it down shifted. Lifting the throttle and you were back to 50 and the cycle continued to your destination. When offered the use of the company truck, I always declined as it was pure torture.

In my Model A, I found the T5 just as frustrating. The catastrophe is compounded with a poorly designed kit which removes the torque tube and depends on the original radius rods to locate the rear axle (something they were never intended to do). The ratios are just terrible and make no sense at all unless you plan on never using certain gears which kind of negates any reason to have a 5 speed and the butchery involved with putting it in. There is a very nice kit available that uses an S10 4x4 transmission with the torque tube....BUT it's still an S10 T5 with its crappy gear ratios. Thank you NO. I will be installing another excellent kit for a 1939 Ford V8 transmission with Lincoln Zephyr gears which will work much better. If I still feel the need for Overdrive that is still an option. There are two one mechanical and one that uses a Studebaker R10 mounted on the torque tube.

Now of course one could change the gear ratios to a Mustang or Camaro but doesn't that jack the price up? Then you have to deal with a shifter coming out of the floor.

All things considered I think the Mopar 833 looks pretty good by comparison to a T5.

I have an R10 in my Coupe and I really really like it!

I have a spare I bought which I am going to put a 1940 Plymouth cluster & 2nd gear into. If that works out I'll change the first Overdrive to that gear set for my Suburban.

Again my thinking is colored by my experience and your mileage will vary. Life is way too short to put up with stuff that just does not work for you. I always get the best combination for me.....after I've tried everything else! lol

[Sniper]

I did the comparison on the A833 gear ratios as well, not as bad as the S10 T, but not as close as the Mustang NWC T5.  The only saving grace is that I already have two A833's setting on a shelf.  As for the floor shifter, ran that by some people trying to keep the column shifter instead.  One suggestion was to use the existing column shifter for 1-2-3-4 and then add a pull cable for R.  That seems like a possibility, but unless I install an A833 and actually try to adapt the linkage it's just an idea that may have merit.

 

   stock   MT5     ST5     A833OD

 

1  2.57      2.95     4.03    3.09

2  1.83      1.94     2.37     1.67

3  1.00      1.34     1.49     1.00  

4               1.00     1.00     0.73

5               0.73     0.86

[sidevalvepete]

This is a real good thread. Always enjoy these discussions when a few of you heavyweights get stimulated enough to put your experience and expertise out in the ether for us all to learn from. Thanks for sharing your wisdom ?

[Bryan]

2 hours ago, Sniper said:

  One suggestion was to use the existing column shifter for 1-2-3-4 and then add a pull cable for R.  That seems like a possibility, but unless I install an A833 and actually try to adapt the linkage it's just an idea that may have merit.

Looking at how manual transmissions shift (5:00 minute mark in video) I wonder if one could use electrically operated servos to pull the shifting shafts, and control the servos from the column.  Small Linear Actuators 12V - 12 Volt Linear Actuator Resource (powerjackmotion.com)