Help with a wiggling P12 lower pulley

[capecodcaper]

Howdy Guys!

 

I have a P12 Plymouth that has been having an issue. The lower pulley (or harmonic balancer) is wiggling a lot but I can't seem to find another or even a diagram/drawing of my engine with a pulley that looks similar. 

 

I described it to the guy out of Fishkill that sells Mopar parts and he sent me a harmonic balancer that is not the same as the one on my car (as mine has a pulley and the one he sent does not, his also needed some new rubber). 

 

It's tough to get in the small space to see but it looks like it's only one large center bolt that is holding it on. It doesn't wiggle by hand but it does when the engine is running. Do I need to replace it? Revulcanize? It's definitely a P12 Block as my engine is labeled with P12.

 

Sorry for the poor description, I'm a younger collector and learning. I'm a novice with this sort of stuff and would love any guidance you could offer. I've asked a lot of my military vehicle friends and they are a little stumped since this goes into the civilian car realm a bit.

 

And for fun, here are 3 of my cars

 

[Sniper]

www.damperdoctor.com list flathead era balancer repair.  Might talk to them.

[allbizz49]

Is it an actual harmonic balancer or just a pulley? If it's a pulley, it sounds bent. I'd pull it off and see if I could straighten it. 

[capecodcaper]

Just now, allbizz49 said:

Is it an actual harmonic balancer or just a pulley? If it's a pulley, it sounds bent. I'd pull it off and see if I could straighten it. 

 

That's what I don't know. Hoping someone can offer some more insight

[allbizz49]

I'd have to guess, without seeing it, that you have a bent pulley. My two 218s both only have pulleys. Maybe try to post a picture of what you are working with.

[Andydodge]

Capecoder.........I had a 1941 P11 Plymouth with what sounds like the same problem.......the engine was making an odd sound, a monotonous "doof, doof, doof",  which turns out was coming from the crank pulley........I also chased up what I thought was the correct replacement pulley only to find that it wasn't..........after taking out the radiator to obtain enough clearance I was able to see that the crank pulley was made up of 2 parts that were rivetted together using large rivets by the factory.....these rivets had started to show some wear, consequently the actual pulley would wobble slightly on the crank hub resulting in the noise...............after removing the radiator, fan and fan belt I used a block of wood to wedge the crank pulley and stop it moving so I was able to use a 1&13/16th 3/4 drive socket to undo the large centre nut..........then I used a puller to remove the hub/pulley assembly............after inspecting the hub/pulley I realised that I couldn't use the replacement crank hub easily however as the problem as just the rivets being loose I decided to weld the hub and pulley together..........I placed small tack welds equidistant at the area where the hub/pulley met......I used 6 welds each one about 1/4 to 3/8" around the hub/pulley, cleaned the welds up and as I had done the welds at opposites to each other I felt that there would not have been any issue regarding the hub/pulley balance and reinstalled the hub/pulley onto the crank, placing the block of wood on the other side of the pulley wedging it hard into the chassis and tightening the centre bolt with a torque wrench.........then assembled everything.........after starting the engine the "doof,doof" sound was gone and I didn't have any issue with the crank pulley/hub again..............I can't remember whether I replaced the crank hub seal at the same time tho' looking back at this I can't be sure.............I sold the car in 2013 like a dope and this work was done around 2010 and did not come back to bite me............I dunno if this is your problem but it well could be......the pulley had just a very small, almost inconceivablely small wobble before doing the job but afterwards  no wobble or noise......success................andyd     

[capecodcaper]

Here is a video of the pulley while running

 

https://streamable.com/ryzrde

 

Here is a photo. Sorry for bad angle. Best I can do with my phone camera. Tight spaces!

 

[capecodcaper]

32 minutes ago, allbizz49 said:

I'd have to guess, without seeing it, that you have a bent pulley. My two 218s both only have pulleys. Maybe try to post a picture of what you are working with.

See above.

 

I was also told that I need a new belt that's a little shorter and wider. So I am going to do that too

[DonaldSmith]

Her are photos of the crankshaft nut, hub, pulley and damper from a 47 DeSoto: 

x

x

x

 

[capecodcaper]

This is what the center bolt looks like

 

It has the teeth for a hand crank. No surrounding bolts other than that one hole

 

 

[desoto1939]

2 hours ago, capecodcaper said:

Howdy Guys!

 

I have a P12 Plymouth that has been having an issue. The lower pulley (or harmonic balancer) is wiggling a lot but I can't seem to find another or even a diagram/drawing of my engine with a pulley that looks similar. 

 

I described it to the guy out of Fishkill that sells Mopar parts and he sent me a harmonic balancer that is not the same as the one on my car (as mine has a pulley and the one he sent does not, his also needed some new rubber). 

 

It's tough to get in the small space to see but it looks like it's only one large center bolt that is holding it on. It doesn't wiggle by hand but it does when the engine is running. Do I need to replace it? Revulcanize? It's definitely a P12 Block as my engine is labeled with P12.

 

Sorry for the poor description, I'm a younger collector and learning. I'm a novice with this sort of stuff and would love any guidance you could offer. I've asked a lot of my military vehicle friends and they are a little stumped since this goes into the civilian car realm a bit.

 

And for fun, here are 3 of my cars

 

Were were the pictures of your cars taken? was it at the WWII reenactment weekend at the Reading Airport in reading Pa at Spatz field?

 

I usually show my 39 Desoto at this event but was not able to make it this year and my car is usually located near the hangers of the Home Front near the Gulf gas station.

 

 

Rich Hartung

desoto1939@aol.com

[Sniper]

Might talk to Vintage Powerwagons, they sell pulleys that look like they might be similar.

[Andydodge]

Capecoder....your pic shows the same type of nut that my car had, the 1"&13/16th 3/4" drive socket fitted over the crank handle "teeth", I had to get a 3/4" drive socket as that was all that was available in the large size..........also noted in your pic that there is what appears to be  grease covered hole which could be one of the two that are located in the hub, I think they are 5/16th or 3/8th UNC, either way I'd clean as much crud off the pulley etc before having at it..........helps to be able to properly identify the enemy before the battle............lol..........BTW....the replacement "hub" that I obtained for my car before I started pulling everything apart is the same as that shown in Donald Smiths 1st pic......his car has a separate "hub" that the crank pulley and Harmonic balancer bolt onto with 6 bolts.........it still has a centre bolt but without the crank handle teeth..........this complete unit "might" be able to be used as a complete replacement on a Plymouth but the individual parts don't appear to be able to be used tho' the internal thread in the crank snout maybe the same size...........andyd 

[capecodcaper]

2 minutes ago, Andydodge said:

Capecoder....your pic shows the same type of nut that my car had, the 1"&13/16th 3/4" drive socket fitted over the crank handle "teeth", I had to get a 3/4" drive socket as that was all that was available in the large size..........also noted in your pic that there is what appears to be  grease covered hole which could be one of the two that are located in the hub, I think they are 5/16th or 3/8th UNC, either way I'd clean as much crud off the pulley etc before having at it..........helps to be able to properly identify the enemy before the battle............lol..........BTW....the replacement "hub" that I obtained for my car before I started pulling everything apart is the same as that shown in Donald Smiths 1st pic......his car has a separate "hub" that the crank pulley and Harmonic balancer bolt onto with 6 bolts.........it still has a centre bolt but without the crank handle teeth..........this complete unit "might" be able to be used as a complete replacement on a Plymouth but the individual parts don't appear to be able to be used tho' the internal thread in the crank snout maybe the same size...........andyd 

 

Hmm interesting

 

That second pic from donalds, the item in the center is what I was sent from the Mopar company. It did not align with my car so I sent it back. Trying to find another pulley

[Andydodge]

Capecoder........just watched your wobbly video.......lol.........brought back lots of memories............thats exactly what mine was doing and sounding like...........its easiest to drain water, pull the radiator and have at it then.........ain't old cars great?............lol............andyd

[Andydodge]

Capecoder.........after my experience with this I would do 2 things........1.do not chase around for a part until you know exactly what you have to find.........2.take the radiator out, clean the crud, remove the pulley and then you'll know exactly what you have......I am pretty certain that Plymouths did not have Harmonic Balancers like the Dodge/DeSoto & Chryslers did.......in fact I just checked my 484 page 1936-42 Plymouth Master Parts List Book that I have and the same "Fan Pulley, Lower" is listed from 1936 to 1941 AND the picture shown is of a pulley WITHOUT any harmonic balancer just like both my 1941 Plymouth had and what appears that your car also has.......methinks that you may have to do what I did or get a competent welder to do it or chase around for the correct non harmonic balancer'd pulley.......have you tried Andy Bernbaums yet?..........not via email but directly via the phone?............again, I would strongly suggest you clean everything to start with..........lol.........regards from sunny South Grafton NSW Australia, Andyd 

[capecodcaper]

3 hours ago, Andydodge said:

Capecoder.........after my experience with this I would do 2 things........1.do not chase around for a part until you know exactly what you have to find.........2.take the radiator out, clean the crud, remove the pulley and then you'll know exactly what you have......I am pretty certain that Plymouths did not have Harmonic Balancers like the Dodge/DeSoto & Chryslers did.......in fact I just checked my 484 page 1936-42 Plymouth Master Parts List Book that I have and the same "Fan Pulley, Lower" is listed from 1936 to 1941 AND the picture shown is of a pulley WITHOUT any harmonic balancer just like both my 1941 Plymouth had and what appears that your car also has.......methinks that you may have to do what I did or get a competent welder to do it or chase around for the correct non harmonic balancer'd pulley.......have you tried Andy Bernbaums yet?..........not via email but directly via the phone?............again, I would strongly suggest you clean everything to start with..........lol.........regards from sunny South Grafton NSW Australia, Andyd 

I will have to see if my mechanic can pull this off. I'm not experienced enough for the welding part haha

[RobertKB]

No welding needed to remove the pulley but the radiator does need to come out. If your mechanic is half decent he can remove the pulley and replace in no time. There’s just enough room designed there to do the job. As mentioned, always clean up the parts and areas you are working on. 
 

Another thing to check now as it’s easy to replace with the radiator out is the rubber on the front engine mount, if needed. 
 

A lot of these jobs are pretty straight-forward and worth learning to do. I knew nothing when I started on old cars but learned a lot from asking questions and reading lots. 

[capecodcaper]

2 hours ago, RobertKB said:

No welding needed to remove the pulley but the radiator does need to come out. If your mechanic is half decent he can remove the pulley and replace in no time. There’s just enough room designed there to do the job. As mentioned, always clean up the parts and areas you are working on. 
 

Another thing to check now as it’s easy to replace with the radiator out is the rubber on the front engine mount, if needed. 
 

A lot of these jobs are pretty straight-forward and worth learning to do. I knew nothing when I started on old cars but learned a lot from asking questions and reading lots. 

Oh I meant the tack welding that Andy was talking about earlier in the thread

 

Where to find a new pulley though, is the question

[Sniper]

4 hours ago, capecodcaper said:

Where to find a new pulley though, is the question

 

Vintage Power Wagons sells pulleys.  Talk to them and see if they have what you need.

 

https://www.vintagepowerwagons.com/online-parts-catalog

 

Berbaums mentions a balancer rebuild service, not mention of pulleys I could find but you can ask them as they don't list everything online.

 

www.oldmoparts.com

[Andydodge]

As far as I am aware the Plymouth pulley which is held onto the crank hub by 6 rivets is NOT a generally rebuilt part......it maybe possible to remove those rivets and install small high tensile bolts to hold the pulley to the hub but re-riveting is not something I'd contemplate doing.........from memory I looked into removing the rivets but I'm thinking that there may have been insufficent space to use the bolts or the bolt heads would have been in the way.........this was about 10 yrs ago so my memory is not 100% but I know I decided on the welding...........I'm a reasonable welder but any competent MIG/TIG shop would be able to do this job.............however Harmonic Balancers which are generally held together by a vulcanised rubber insert can be rebuilt..........the Plymouth pulley assembly is NOT that type of part as far as I am aware...............andyd 

[Merle Coggins]

That looks like a standard pulley. There are a couple different size hand crank nuts, but as Andy mentioned you will need a rather large socket. There will be 2 puller holes. One can be seen in your photo. Be careful when threading in the bolts for your puller. It's very easy to thread them into the front cover / seal. You'll likely want to replace the seal anyway once you have the pulley off, but you don't want to damage the front cover in the process. 

It might be tight quarters in there for a puller without pulling out the radiator. 

 

[capecodcaper]

I called oldmoparparts and VPW, no luck on the pulley.

 

Any other suggestions? 

[capecodcaper]

VPW is looking for the belt width and the pulley diameter, can anyone get anything like that for me? 

[RobertKB]

A tape measure will get that for you.