Way off topic 1993 caravan transmission

[Los_Control]

@kencombs To be honest, I'm not finished flushing it yet ..... I worked on it for 14 days straight and used vinegar until it simply was not removing anymore dirt.

 

Then I switched to soap and I really do not like the bubbles .... I feel like there may be some air pockets in the system .... I was not comfortable driving it on the road like that .... I did use it in the driveway though.

It removed a lot more and then stopped being effective.

 

So I basically got tired of working on it, it still looks dirty and stained inside the coolant system but no more dirt and sludge floating around in it. It runs at it's normal temperature  ..... I'm just taking a break from it as it is fine to drive.

I will let the water work on breaking the stain down some and then flush some more before cold weather and add antifreeze.

 

I will give the dishwasher soap a try.

 

[Los_Control]

Boy oh boy .... Lady Belle has been a real stinker.

I'm thinking something about " A woman scorned " Making her sit in a corner on time out for 2 years. 

 

I have about 2K miles on the used engine. It really does run good. Most of the time.

It has a strange issue where the engine starts to cut out. I will be cruising 75mph down the highway, and it just starts cutting out.

I can drive it about 25 miles at highway speed before it starts .... use to be 35 miles before it started acting up ... so it is gradually getting worse.

Once it acts up, I can take a back road and drive 50mph all day long ... runs perfect.   🤔

 

I feel like it is timing related, so I replaced the brand new crank sensor ... no change.

At this point it has new crank & cam sensors, coil, plugs, wires, 02, MAP, IAC, TPS, EGR, EGR solenoid.

Everything electrical has been changed and zero difference.

 

So I started on fuel. The fuel pump had only 5k miles on it, I installed a new fuel filter, fuel pressure regulator, then replaced the new fuel pump. ..... I have a fuel pressure gauge and it reads exactly what it should.

 

I have been doing the OBD1 key dance and getting various codes that included O2, EGR, TPS out of range, fuel mixture rich. And I reset the codes and then they change to different issues.

I'm at my wits end with it .... I ordered a pcm for it, the only thing left that has not been changed.

 

We have a new year coming up, sure hope Lady Belle is ready to turn over a new leaf and return to being a lady 🙄

[JerseyHarold]

Check the underside of the under-hood fuse box.  I've heard the connections can corrode and give you weird electrical problems.

[Los_Control]

Thanks for the reply @JerseyHarold This car does not have a under hood fuse box .... It does have some relays and the PCM is on the driver side inner fender, no fuse box though.

 

Also when I put this engine in ... used engine with 135K on it, I went through the wiring harness and cleaned repaired everything while the engine was out and harness loose .... it is in good shape.

 

Just one of those things that we would think is so simple to fix, and yet so hard to find.

 

The PCM I bought is used, they are pulling it from a good running car. $55

The owner junked it because of some body damage, interior wore out .... just a old car and they did not want to fix it.

I'm hoping it will be good enough to see if my existing problem goes away.

[Dave72dt]

I would be curious to see what the Cat temps are doing.  I think you may have a Cat going bad and would be even more suspecting of that if ether if your two previous engines puked anti freeze into the exhaust.  Only my opinion and I would want to be sure before that kind of investment.   Some research into what conditions sets the codes you see especially if they are recurring.

[Los_Control]

Thanks @Dave72dt

Thats really a interesting thought .... I have no idea what symptoms a bad cat would show.

I will have to research it once I get a cup of coffee in me.

 

A clue is it always takes about 20-25 miles before it acts up ... use to be 30-40 miles ... is getting worse.

That might be the time it takes for a cat to heat up?

 

The car sounds different, not really loud ... just different. I have never done exhaust work to it but do not see/hear any leaks. Is possible original with 188K on the cat.

 

The first used engine that only lasted 50 miles .... Had a lot of condensation in it and puked steam out for 45 min before the engine was fully warmed up and the exhaust cleared up. Huge amounts of steam clouds creating a wall of steam behind the car.

 

Something new is when stopped at a light and foot on the brakes, the engine runs a little rough ... foot off the brake and goes away ... I'm blaming power brake booster for that .... or plugged cat?

 

Ok I looked up symptoms.

I think it is very possible the cat is going bad and needs removed ... A few symptoms along with age and mileage suggest that.

 

About poor performance though ... it is a soccer mom mini van, no Hot Rod.

It jumps right out and zero issues keeping up with traffic or getting to 90mph by the end of the freeway on ramp.

You barely breathe on the gas pedal to maintain 80mph and it always creeps up to 85-90.

It has the expected performance.

 

The main issue when it acts up is it acts like it is running out of gas and the motor starts jerking.

Or it is misfiring and the cylinders are getting fire at the wrong time.

Hard to tell which it is at 75mph ... either way you take your foot off the gas and slow down and it goes away.

Wonder if the cat would cause that?

[Sniper]

Years ago my son-in-law called me to come look at his GMC pickup. he thought he had a rod knock. this is back when he was living up in Abilene

 so I drove up there he fired it up and as soon as I heard the sound I said that's your catalytic converter. Apparently the brick inside broke up and chunks of it were rattling around. He said are you sure? Oh yeah, So we shut the truck off got underneath it and I Gave the cat a hammer fist and you could hear it rattled And boy was he happy his engine wasn't blown up. So what we did Was cut the cats out take a rod knock all the guts out and then put the cat shells back in. He was fixing to deploy to Afghanistan so he didn't have time or money really to fix it at the moment So while he was deployed His wife, my daughter, and I conspired to buy all the parts he needed And when he got back we fixed it and then found out he had a front wheel bearing That was going bad, which explained the occasionally flickering ABS light. sometimes it's odd how things interact. If this was my minivan, I'd be knocking the guts out of the cat and see what happens

[Los_Control]

Good advice @Sniper I have been thinking about that .... just because of it's age and the fact the exhaust sounds different this time around.

 

Just not sure how I will do it yet .... we have no emission inspections ....  my truck the cat was removed and replaced with a pipe.

pretty sure I will need to cut the exhaust unless I'm lucky the cat bolts in ... I think it is welded.

Well not to bad if I buy a new one for $120

Will bolt right to the header pipe, then to the muffler.  .... For the $$, replacing it seems like the best choice.

 

Still would want to cut it out of there and micky mouse a straight pipe in and see what happens. If the problem goes away.

30 minutes ago, Sniper said:

sometimes it's odd how things interact.

If the cat is bad, seems plausible it is messing with the MAF and sending bad data to the PCM?

 

Besides, everything else is new .... I would love to spend my $$ on a shiny new converter  🤣🤣🤣

[Dave72dt]

There are some tests that can be performed prior to gutting the converter.  Once it's gutted you're committed to replacement even if it's not the real cause.   Vacuum gauge used for one test, removing the O2 sensor and running it for another and yes, a plugged converter can set codes for O2, EGR, MAP, IAC and others.

[Los_Control]

@thats just it @Dave72dt ... I'm getting so many different codes I'm thinking the pcm is bad and giving out bad data.

So I ordered a used one just to see if it makes a difference.

 

I had a brand new 02 sensor in it and a code for bad 02 .... I change it and reset the pcm and code goes away .... then it comes back later.

 

I had a used EGR, I bench tested it and is good, so I install it and both 02, EGR codes keep coming back, now have a rich fuel code .... just driving me nuts .... I'm going to remove this cat and try it .... when it stops raining.

Tomorrow will be a nice day and the wife birthday .... working on her car should be allowed.

[JerseyHarold]

Have you ever checked the coolant temperature sensor or the throttle position sensor?

[Sniper]

I think I would start by banging on the cat with a rubber mallet and see if you hear anything rattling around. Because if it's plugged in your exhaust then it's got loose chunks in there

[Los_Control]

TPS is new, temp sensor works exactly as it should.

 

2 minutes ago, Sniper said:

I think I would start by banging on the cat with a rubber mallet and see if you hear anything rattling around. Because if it's plugged in your exhaust then it's got loose chunks in there

Giving it more thought. It is easy to unbolt it from the header .... had it on and off a few times.

The rest is just held on by those thick rubber bands going to the mounts .... easy to remove.

 

I can just lower it down and rod it out ... leaving all the trash inside the exhaust.

If I can snake it out from over the rear axle .... possible, I can stand it on end and shake all the trash out of it.

So a simple unbolt, remove .... get er did and replace .... zero $$ spent 

 

Rainy and 40 degrees today, sunshine and 70 tomorrow ... Good day to watch old cowboy movies 

 

[Sniper]

1 minute ago, Los_Control said:

Good day to watch old cowboy movies 

I'm out in El Paso for a job but last night I watched Gunsmoke.

[Los_Control]

Famous last words .... "Oh this will be simple"

On a good note, the exhaust is plugged ... I assume it is the cat. I held my hand in front of the tail pipe for 10 seconds and that was longer then I needed to know it is wrong. ..... I just never thought about a bad cat.

I really have to thank @Dave72dt again for pointing me in the right direction.

 

This would be a really simple job if I were going to replace the exhaust ... 2 cuts and pull it out.

No way to get it out from under the car in 1 piece, so trying to get it loose at the muffler while trying to save the muffler is a tough job. .... I do want to put it back together and prove it is the real problem before spending $$ on it.

I would prefer to wait til February .... Complete exhaust system is 3 pieces from RA. $120 for cat, $40 for muffler, $50 for resonator that includes tail pipe and just bolt it all together .... That's a simple job.

Saving old mufflers is not 

[Dave72dt]

Cut the pipe a couple inches behind the cat, remove at manifold or not, perform surgical procedure from tail end, get an exhaust pipe coupler, less than $10, couple of clamps or weld it in after the surgical procedure on the cat is completed.  Muffler and resonator still intact and does not need to be removed or replaced.  Simple.

[Los_Control]

Good advice, will follow it tomorrow.

 

I had to bury a dog this morning, was expecting it to come any day ... she was comfortable and passed away last night.

Daisy was a big dog, about 120 pounds  .... took a big hole.

 

So I was 1/2 worn out by the time I got to the car at 2:00pm .... was on a one track path to separate the muffler.

I did it on my truck not too long ago when I replaced the clutch. .... Caravan just not working out.

 

I will get a sleeve and cut it tomorrow.

[Los_Control]

Well that was fun ... think I might have to try it again  🙄

Cat is totally gutted and I managed to put it all back together and go for a drive. In a way it was actually worse because it started acting up sooner then it normally does .... it also acted up a little bit at 45mph on the back roads home, which it never did in the past.

 

I still think the exhaust may be plugged though ... is it common for a cat to plug a muffler or resonator?

 

Only test I have for this is the dollar bill trick. I fold a dollar bill in 1/2 lengthwise and hold one 1/2 on top of the tail pipe, with other 1/2 flopping over the end of pipe. With the engine running at idle, will blow the bill straight out.

 

The idea is, if you have a burnt or leaking valve, the bill will flap back and forth as the exhaust sucks it in ... quick and dirty test when looking to buy a used car. ... the bill should be straight out all the time.

 

So I'm a bit confused, on the Caravan, the bill only goes up less then 1/2 way of being straight out ... just no pressure to blow it.

Every car I used the trick on blows the bill straight out ... my 49 Dodge blows the bill straight out.

 

So I dunno, I got the PCM today ... not satisfied with exhaust though ... got to play some more.

I'm thinking to disconnect cat from tail pipe and see if it blows out normal like it should.

Then connect muffler with the resonator disconnected to see it blows straight out from there. ... I have a feeling the muffler is plugged.

[Sniper]

I suppose it is possible that chunks of the cat blew into the muffler or resonator.  It is also not unknown for the baffles in a muffler to let loose and plug it up.

 

Someone mentioned using the O2 bung to measure exhaust pressure.  I would do that.

[Dave72dt]

Were the insides of the cat already gone when you opened it up?  Did you fire the engine up before connecting the tail section?   Once the pipe was cut would have been a good time to do your flow check before getting invasive.

[Los_Control]

9 hours ago, Dave72dt said:

Were the insides of the cat already gone when you opened it up?  Did you fire the engine up before connecting the tail section?   Once the pipe was cut would have been a good time to do your flow check before getting invasive.

When I cut the cat loose and removed it from under the car, piles of loose crap poured out of the cat .... no question it was bad.

I removed every last drop from the cat and can look through it, nothing but a metal shell left.

 

There really is no improvement in flow at the tail pipe ... I never thought about the muffler being clogged also.

With all the loose crap that poured out of the cat there is no surprise it is also plugged.

 

I might try to make a video later .... I feel if others saw what I see ... they would agree the exhaust is plugged and there is no sense doing anything til after it is unplugged. ..... This will not be pretty 🤣

 

I'm already committed to a new exhaust.

I will chop the tail pipe off behind the muffler and check flow there I think it will be bad, so I will cut the muffler out.

 

Now I will have a straight pipe off the header and it has to be good flow .... engine has good strong compression.

Hoping I can weld or mickey mouse the resonator and tail pipe to it, and have something that I can drive to see if it now fixes the problem. .... It is all junk anyways.

Complete new exhaust cat, muffler, resonator is $250 and is 3 pieces to bolt together .... will do that after I fix the existing issue.

 

This has been a rough month on the wallet already, bi-annual car insurance, wife birthday, spent $$ on the caravan & 49 Dodge ... Christmas is coming up .... MAKE IT STOP!!!  😭

[Los_Control]

Sometimes it is good to just step away and take a break ... I did that and went back at it today.

 

I had the new used PCM and thought I would install that before touching the exhaust.

I did recheck codes first and had code EGR failed .... last time I checked it was rich fuel mixture.

But it just keeps bouncing around between 02, EGR, rich fuel.

 

May not look terrible ... compare to this photo.

 

The pins for the transmission control module were corroded and kept putting it into limp mode.

So when I look at the pins to the PCM, they are not as bad, they are getting corroded also and could cause weird issues.

 

Possibly the pcm just needed the connections cleaned ... I dunno, I just swapped them out and cleaned the pins on the new/used one. .... I'm guessing the original one is fine, just needs cleaned.

 

Did this fix my problem? .... NOOOO!!!

It did act up again, I forced it to go further this time ... at one point I pulled over and held my hand over the tail pipe.

I still feel the flow is weak, and when the car is acting up, I thought the exhaust was way hotter then it should be .... wanted to burn my hand holding it over the pipe at the rear bumper.

I can only blame the heat on a plugged exhaust not passing through fast enough to cool off.

 

I feel like the King of England .... Tomorrow it will be  OFF WITH IT"S MUFFLER!

 

Just slowly fighting my way through several small different issues .... hoping I will get it this time with removing muffler.

[Los_Control]

So after changing the pcm, wife was driving to the store and the wipers quit working  (linkage fell off) 🙄

 

I was surprised when I removed the resonator ... now the flow is perfect coming out of the muffler ... the resonator was plugged. .... Is a teensy bit louder with just a muffler and no tail pipe, barley noticeable.

A google search showed it is not as common for a resonator to plug up as a cat .... but it does happen.

 

No, it did not solve the main issue .... drive all day long at 50 mph, but 25 miles at 75mph and the engine acts up

Only stored code is rich fuel mixture.

 

I'm wondering now if maybe I have some vacuum lines crossed and want to spend time on them.

Looked at it yesterday and the water pump took a dump   🙄

Wondering if it is time to bring in a demolition crew with dynamite.

[JBNeal]

13 hours ago, Los_Control said:

...

No, it did not solve the main issue .... drive all day long at 50 mph, but 25 miles at 75mph and the engine acts up

Only stored code is rich fuel mixture.

...

This may or may not help:

 

When I fiddled with PCM mapping back in the day, the problem here sounds like the PCM is trying to switch to closed loop mode but the injectors are stuck in open loop mode, hence the rich fuel code, almost like a relay is sticking somewhere.  I'm not familiar with the Chrysler specific fuel delivery circuitry, so I'm not sure if this relay is modular or soldered to the PCM.