I KNOW! CALL PERTRONIX DIRECTLY, BUT.....

[maok]

13 hours ago, PT81PlymouthPickup said:

Thanks 50mech!  I had too many beers last night and read the chart wrong.  I apologize to everyone for confusing things more than they already are. Yes, I have the Ignitor-II module. So, according to the chart maok posted I should probably have their .45 or .6 ohm coil which gives me a hotter spark? Their .45 ohm coil however is not a round stock looking coil, so it looks like #s 45001 or 45011 flamethrower 2 coils would be the best choice for my truck. Only difference being one is chrome and one is black  Summit Racing lists them having a 2.125" diameter. If that's correct, I should be able to make it fit in my oem coil bracket. Agreed? From what I'm deciphering, my 1.5 ohm coil would probably work OK without the ballast resistor, but spark would be not as hot?  Am I on track here? I'll see if Pertronix confirms this.

 

Yep, I mis-read your original post, I thought you had the Ignitor 1 module.

[PT81PlymouthPickup]

Thanks guys!  Reliability is what I'm after.  Just got a confirmation from Pertronix tech support and they concur with your advice. Below is quote from them:

 

"Using the stock 1.5 ohm coil will be fine. The Ignitor II will control the coil and the extra voltage will not harm the coil at all. We also feel the same way about the resistor. We prefer for them to not be installed for performance and one less part to fail. The reason we show the alternative wiring, is many customer do not want to remove the resistor. They want to keep the resistor so it's has the original "look"."

 

So, my plan is to finish they directed. If my coil ever fails I'll then replace with the .6 ohm flamethrower coil.  Why are electrons so confusing? Or! Why am I so stupid? Lols!
 

[PT81PlymouthPickup]

On 8/4/2020 at 11:19 AM, 50mech said:

So your 1.5 is probably as well suited as anything else as long as it can handle full voltage all day.

So for me, slap in a 1.5 flame thrower coil w no ballast. Set the gap at .045 on plugs. Call it a day. Rest easy knowing I'm not pushing the limits of any component of the system.

Sorry to keep asking dumb questions 50mech! You seem like you are experienced with this stuff.? All I know about the coil that's in my truck is it's 12v and 1.5 ohm. I have no idea how many thousands of volts it puts out. I believe it was an old stock unit made in the early 1970s. Are you saying that running my 1.5 ohm coil, I should open the spark plug gap to .045?  Or just if I purchase the Pertronix flamethrower II 45,000 .6 ohm coil? 

[50mech]

Yeah I'd open the gap....don't have to but basically now you'll have the potential raise the discharge voltage from your coil, so why not, that only happens with a gap increase or some major engine mod.

 

Even if I replaced the coil I'd probably still use a 1.5.

No good dropping to .6 when either coil is likely to spark at a max of 20k on this engine anyhow.

[PT81PlymouthPickup]

2 hours ago, 50mech said:

Yeah I'd open the gap....don't have to but basically now you'll have the potential raise the discharge voltage from your coil, so why not, that only happens with a gap increase or some major engine mod.

 

Even if I replaced the coil I'd probably still use a 1.5.

No good dropping to .6 when either coil is likely to spark at a max of 20k on this engine anyhow.

Thanks! Now that problem is solved, Any suggestions on plugs?  I've been running AC45 spark plugs which have been working well, but they're not resistors. I'm installing resistor wires which Pertronix insists on with their modules. Should not the plugs be resistors too?

[50mech]

That could be argued all day long. My opinion is that it's a matter of opinion, and not a very important matter at that.

  I don't see any need for both nor do I think anyone would ever notice an actual difference.

 

The resistor wires are plenty to protect a basic electronic trigger from radio noise.

It's not a full on computerized electronic ignition system.

 

Favorite plugs I think on this forum tend to lean away from champion and towards nearly anything else.

I'm a fan of NGK but that's mostly because I think they performed longest in my old 2 stroke dirt bikes.

Edited August 5, 2020 by 50mech

[DJ194950]

Problems can be caused fro opening the plug gaps from the stock 30-32 thous. to 45 with originals as they were meant and designed for stock gaps.  Contacts will not stay parallel.

 

Would be best to find proper plugs that best match thread and outside OD, depth of electrode, and heat range that came spec'dfor 40-45 thous. gaps.

 

Question has anyone done the research for these?

 

I  have run a Pertronix "I" ignition setup and coil with resistor plugs and wires (12V.) for 6 years but stayed with the stock spec'd plugs gaped at just 35 thous.

I did not not want to go bigger gaps with them.

 

Works fine but would not mind to try a plug with proper specs though to try a wider gap.

 

Anyone?

 

Sorry if if is getting at least slightly OT.

 

DJ

[50mech]

 

Never heard of any issue making adjustments to plug gaps except for an iridium plug. Actually ac Delco themselves say it is essential to adjust the gaps on their plugs for your vehicle. ( Exception of iridium's)

It's step 6 in their installation guide.

The application catalog will list the same plug number but depending on vehicle it will call for gaps anywhere from .030-.055......there isn't a different type for a different gap.

 

MSD recommends running a step or 2 colder and 10-20 thou bigger gap with their similar potential output coils.

 

So I guess it would be an ac44 with an .045 gap setting.

 

Going colder is only to ward off pre ignition though....not a particular concern for a 7:1 compression engine so I'd skip the step colder, keep the temp range high enough to ward off much more likely deposits.

 

 

Edited August 6, 2020 by 50mech

[PT81PlymouthPickup]

OK, here's another thought I just had. After installing the Pertronix module, does the distributor need to be clocked (rotated differently) than when the points were installed? I'm hoping my vacuum advance unit will be in roughly the same position? If not I'll have to mess with the steel vacuum line which I painstakingly bent to look factory. Did I mention I'm afflicted with O.C.D. ?

[50mech]

You'll want set the timing, but it shouldn't be far off.

[PT81PlymouthPickup]

1 hour ago, DJ194950 said:

Problems can be caused fro opening the plug gaps from the stock 30-32 thous. to 45 with originals as they were meant and designed for stock gaps.  Contacts will not stay parallel.

 

Would be best to find proper plugs that best match thread and outside OD, depth of electrode, and heat range that came spec'dfor 40-45 thous. gaps.

 

Question has anyone done the research for these?

 

I  have run a Pertronix "I" ignition setup and coil with resistor plugs and wires (12V.) for 6 years but stayed with the stock spec'd plugs gaped at just 35 thous.

I did not not want to go bigger gaps with them.

 

Works fine but would not mind to try a plug with proper specs though to try a wider gap.

 

Anyone?

 

Sorry if if is getting at least slightly OT.

 

DJ

DJ, 50mech is a wealth of information. He has given me some great advice concerning my Pertronix install.

 

I will add my 2 cents which is "dont mess with success" or "Leave well enough alone" Things my dad used to tell me and I never listened. If it's running well and the plugs look like they're burning well at the .035 perhaps just stick with it?  Just about every time I start changing things, I get in trouble. ? Anyhow, If I'm reading you correctly your concern is tif you go with a wider gap with your existing plugs the electrode face and ground tab would not be parallel to each other? Interesting question! I'm not sure that would make any difference?  But it seems like the spark might jump from the closest points and wear the electrode on one corner? I just put the first set of plugs in my 2008 Ford Ranger which I bought new now having 120,000 miles on it. The plug ground straps were conical in design (came to a point) Amazing with the computer controlled high energy ignitions, those plugs looked like brand new with all those miles. I almost hesitated to replace them. I remember seeing plugs shot at 10,000 miles in the old days.

[Plymouthy Adams]

8 hours ago, PT81PlymouthPickup said:

Thanks guys!  Reliability is what I'm after.  Just got a confirmation from Pertronix tech support and they concur with your advice. Below is quote from them:

 

"Using the stock 1.5 ohm coil will be fine. The Ignitor II will control the coil and the extra voltage will not harm the coil at all. We also feel the same way about the resistor. We prefer for them to not be installed for performance and one less part to fail. The reason we show the alternative wiring, is many customer do not want to remove the resistor. They want to keep the resistor so it's has the original "look"."

 

So, my plan is to finish they directed. If my coil ever fails I'll then replace with the .6 ohm flamethrower coil.  Why are electrons so confusing? Or! Why am I so stupid? Lols!
 

I have issue with that...the Pertronix is not controlling the coil only the time it is conducting...therefore a 1.5 ohm coil which is fine IF you are staying 6 volt......... but there is a mention of the dropping resistor, a needed item to protect the coil if 12 volt is applied.   This is the very misinformation you get from some sites and the cause for many failures.   Anything over 20K secondary is basically not needed but will not hurt...but when you get down to the .6X ohm and lower...you looking at a coil for multi-spark application...another useless item of these flatheads...oh sure it my look cool and get oohs and ahs and well, many strive on this.  

[50mech]

2 hours ago, Plymouthy Adams said:

I have issue with that...the Pertronix is not controlling the coil only the time it is conducting...therefore a 1.5 ohm coil which is fine IF you are staying 6 volt......... but there is a mention of the dropping resistor, a needed item to protect the coil if 12 volt is applied.   This is the very misinformation you get from some sites and the cause for many failures.   Anything over 20K secondary is basically not needed but will not hurt...but when you get down to the .6X ohm and lower...you looking at a coil for multi-spark application...another useless item of these flatheads...oh sure it my look cool and get oohs and ahs and well, many strive on this.  

That's where using a semiconductor switch ( transistor) in place of points is kind of special.

It can be partially on, so within it's current limitations it's can actually control charge rate of the coil.

Since the coil will charge on a curve ( reduced current as it nears saturation), you can play that against the transistor gate and the module will essentially charge any coil within it's range to near peak saturation but not more)  This is why you can suddenly use anywhere from .45 through 3ohms or slightly more on an ignitor2 without a ballast resistor.

 

It's basically a built in dynamic ballast. It's not just controlling the time it is conducting ( dwell) but also how conductive the total circuit is.

 

But yeah totally agree, anything over 20kv will never even get used by this motor.

Edited August 6, 2020 by 50mech

[Sharps40]

Sounds like keeping a "look" is causing confusion.   Since it's now 12v- ground and likely has an alternator and will need non original looking plug wires, why not return the confusing dizzy package to pertronix, call tom Langdon and drop in an hei.   Hide the square coil.  Simple wire to switched ignition source, no ballast, dead reliable.    You can always leave in the old coil and ballast with deadhead wires for the look of those components 

 

If you gut the old coil hide the square coil inside the firewall and wire it through the old coil shell.

 

Edited August 6, 2020 by Sharps40

[Plymouthy Adams]

7 hours ago, 50mech said:

That's where using a semiconductor switch ( transistor) in place of points is kind of special.

It can be partially on, so within it's current limitations it's can actually control charge rate of the coil.

Since the coil will charge on a curve ( reduced current as it nears saturation), you can play that against the transistor gate and the module will essentially charge any coil within it's range to near peak saturation but not more)  This is why you can suddenly use anywhere from .45 through 3ohms or slightly more on an ignitor2 without a ballast resistor.

 

It's basically a built in dynamic ballast. It's not just controlling the time it is conducting ( dwell) but also how conductive the total circuit is.

 

But yeah totally agree, anything over 20kv will never even get used by this motor.

The semi conductor to switch is great, no wear and while dwell in the sense of points is no longer measured....the fact that 12 volts is applied to the coil without a ballast is still going to heat the coil and cause failure. Only in the application of the e-coil is this not a case....OR ..the use of the internal resistance coil....but the electronic ignitions of other makers use either the resistor or a resistor wire to drop the voltage to the coil when using the external resistor coil on 12 volt.  Now on application of this ignitor  on a 6 volts system, yes there will be no need whatsoever for the resistor as 1.5 (+/-  ~.3) ohm coils is wound for 6 volts.  .   Their blaster module may be different...but I believe the discussion here is the Ignitor...

[Jeff Balazs]

I can only say what I said before ........ these engine are in general in a very soft state of tune. Typical side valve characteristics.

When I first got my truck running I played around with the spark gap. Going from .035" to .045" made absolutely no difference in the way the truck ran. My Pertronix set up was...... and still is working flawlessly. I had far more issues in getting the carburation working properly. Once I got that corrected my truck has been a joy to use. Never any issues starting right up and running properly. I have used it as my every day driver for the past 6 years. And that is what it is all about.

Jeff

[50mech]

3 hours ago, Plymouthy Adams said:

The semi conductor to switch is great, no wear and while dwell in the sense of points is no longer measured....the fact that 12 volts is applied to the coil without a ballast is still going to heat the coil and cause failure. Only in the application of the e-coil is this not a case....OR ..the use of the internal resistance coil....but the electronic ignitions of other makers use either the resistor or a resistor wire to drop the voltage to the coil when using the external resistor coil on 12 volt.  Now on application of this ignitor  on a 6 volts system, yes there will be no need whatsoever for the resistor as 1.5 (+/-  ~.3) ohm coils is wound for 6 volts.  .   Their blaster module may be different...but I believe the discussion here is the Ignitor...

Ignitor 2 actually and it starts the dwell at a full 12 then adjusts accordingly.

You don't have to take my word for it though. It's well presented in the flow chart.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://patents.google.com/patent/US6752134&ved=2ahUKEwj7_8fa8obrAhXLJt8KHSRbBukQFjABegQIARAC&usg=AOvVaw0qSTXP4cg5WnhAPB1Cz_8a&cshid=1596728030379

 

I'd agree with Jeff though, this all way overthinking for this motor. Slapping a hot rod ignition on a sloth doesn't do anything for it.

Going to .045 for me has resulted in slightly quicker starts I believe, but I have no real evidence, at worst though it does nothing.

Edited August 6, 2020 by 50mech

[PT81PlymouthPickup]

2 hours ago, Jeff Balazs said:

I can only say what I said before ........ these engine are in general in a very soft state of tune. Typical side valve characteristics.

When I first got my truck running I played around with the spark gap. Going from .035" to .045" made absolutely no difference in the way the truck ran. My Pertronix set up was...... and still is working flawlessly. I had far more issues in getting the carburation working properly. Once I got that corrected my truck has been a joy to use. Never any issues starting right up and running properly. I have used it as my every day driver for the past 6 years. And that is what it is all about.

Jeff

I agree with you both times Jeff. ? My goal also is reliability. I read on some of your earlier posts you have been using Autolite 306 plugs. My truck has had AC45 non resistor plugs which have worked well with my 12v and points. Do you think just staying with those is OK with the pertronix installed? 50mech suggested it shouldn't matter resistor or non resistor and that was confirmed by Pertronix technical rep. I'm uncertain if there is any reason to change plugs?

[PT81PlymouthPickup]

2 hours ago, 50mech said:

Ignitor 2 actually and it starts the dwell at a full 12 then adjusts accordingly.

You don't have to take my word for it though. It's well presented in the flow chart.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://patents.google.com/patent/US6752134&ved=2ahUKEwj7_8fa8obrAhXLJt8KHSRbBukQFjABegQIARAC&usg=AOvVaw0qSTXP4cg5WnhAPB1Cz_8a&cshid=1596728030379

 

I'd agree with Jeff though, this all way overthinking for this motor. Slapping a hot rod ignition on a sloth doesn't do anything for it.

Going to .045 for me has resulted in slightly quicker starts I believe, but I have no real evidence, at worst though it does nothing.

Hey! I take issue about referring to our engines as "Sloth's!  ? Lols!  My truck goes down the road at a respectable pace.  It's all relative anyhow. Compared to my lawnmower, it's got warp drive.

Edited August 6, 2020 by PT81PlymouthPickup
hit the wrong key

[50mech]

10 minutes ago, PT81PlymouthPickup said:

Hey! I take issue about referring to our engines as "Sloth's!  ? Lols!  My truck goes down the road at a respectable pace.  It's all relative anyhow. Compared to my lawnmower, it's got warp drive.

Armadillo?

[PT81PlymouthPickup]

1 minute ago, 50mech said:

Armadillo?

Yeah! That's better. Slow but strong as hell. Lols!

[50mech]

2 minutes ago, PT81PlymouthPickup said:

Yeah! That's better. Slow but strong as hell. Lols!

Haha, hey they outrun me anyday.

And take a beating better.

Edited August 6, 2020 by 50mech

[Pete]

I spoke with Pertronix support a couple of months ago. He said that resistor wires were mandatory to avoid interference with the Igniter. I've read elsewhere that you do not want to use both resister wires and resister plugs as that is too much resistance. In other words, if you are going with the igniter, use resister plug wires and non-resister plugs.

 

Pete

 

 

[PT81PlymouthPickup]

12 minutes ago, Pete said:

I spoke with Pertronix support a couple of months ago. He said that resistor wires were mandatory to avoid interference with the Igniter. I've read elsewhere that you do not want to use both resister wires and resister plugs as that is too much resistance. In other words, if you are going with the igniter, use resister plug wires and non-resister plugs.

 

Pete

 

 

Thanks Pete! I'm leaning towards non resistors. The AC45 plugs I have are non resistors. I might try a set of Autolite 295 plugs just because it's more Moparish under the hood. I like and have always heard good things about NGKs too, but something about Jap plugs in a WW2 era vehicle doesn't sit well with me now. My Dad, who fought during that war would get irritated with me buying Jap cars and when I visited Germany in 2001 he said: "What do you want to go there for? They were trying to kill us" Lols!  I didn't used to pay much attention to him, but now I'm telling my kids to stop buying Chinese stuff. I guess what goes around, comes around?

[50mech]

Lol. That reminds me, I recently went to the USS North Carolina and spotted the A/C systems they had installed.... Mitsubishi... maybe they made the A/C units out of recyled zeros the ship had shot down lol.