The Great Frame, Sub Frame, IFS Stock, Truck I Beam Debate Thread

[55 Fargo]

Often when Furd or Chebby are used as donors, whether thats a front clip or frame or engine and trans. 

Quite often these are poor candidates for an AB Mopar type, requires an AB blood type match to be compatible.

Mopar cars and trucks have a strong rejection of the HLA of Furds and Chebby making transplants a high risk of rejection and high mortality rates of the Mopar car or truck. 

Furds and Chebby can support each other genetically but Mopar requires a higher consideration to these antics.

Okay Im only joking, did I mention im.not a big Ford or Chebby fan....LOL

 

[BigDaddyO]

On 3/30/2018 at 4:00 PM, knuckleharley said:

Yeah,Puff was the call sign of the C-47's. DUHHHH!

 

Only special AC-47s...

'Spooky'

[knuckleharley]

25 minutes ago, BigDaddyO said:

 

Only special AC-47s...

'Spooky'

I know this is off-topic so I hesitate to respond,but weren't the gun ships the only C-47's still flying in the 60's?

Maybe it would be better for anyone interested in this conversation to send me PM's?

[Andydodge]

Doc......I think that the aversion to frame swaps and grafts stems from possible poor workmanship and the ability for the registration departments to be able to confirm whats actually been done and whether its structural integrity, ie, welding etc is up to par............here in Oz so long as I don't modify the original chassis then I can swap engines, trans, sometimes front & rear suspensions depending on how and what they are and even swap complete bodies yet the chassis determines what the car is registered as.........as an example 40 yrs ago a mate wanted to stick a V8 in his oval window VW..........back then the only way it could be done was to find a chassis with the same wheelbase as his VW so the fenders would fit & look o/k.....the mid 50's Austin A40/Devon was found to meet the specs within about 1"......so I welded 3/16th steel plate the entire length of the chassis on its inner side then mounted a later model Oz GM front suspension sort of like a Mustang 11 and mounted a 289/C4 Ford in the chassis, he had a new floor, firewall etc made up and it was registered as a modified Austin A40............and is still owned and driven now with over 200,000 kms on it.............generally speaking its slightly easier if you want to get some sort of "conditional" registration such as "Street Rod" rego as you are given some leeway in compliancing with the various Australian Design Rules that all new cars have to meet but are limited in the distance you can drive the car for normal servicing but can use it to go to any organised run or even anywhere in Oz, but you can't drive it everyday to work........my 1940 Dodge has never been unregistered since being built by T J Richards the Oz assemblers in 1940, when I bought it in September 1971 I started to get the various bits, engine, gearbox, diff, brakes, etc "restored" as I also had an Oz 1940 Dodge coupe that I was going to hotrod.......after only doing 1000 miles on the restored engine it **** itself so I pulled all the stock mechanicals out and installed the V8..................back then, 1973 there was no requirement to have the car checked by an engineering signatory as there is now so I just advised the Rego dept that I'd changed the engine, heres the new number and bye, bye..........lol..............it would probably pass o/k but so long as I get it inspected each year for its normal roadworthiness check as normal cars need and it passes then its good to go and I can drive it whenever I like...........anyway more waffling........lol....................andyd

        

[55 Fargo]

19 minutes ago, Andydodge said:

Doc......I think that the aversion to frame swaps and grafts stems from possible poor workmanship and the ability for the registration departments to be able to confirm whats actually been done and whether its structural integrity, ie, welding etc is up to par............here in Oz so long as I don't modify the original chassis then I can swap engines, trans, sometimes front & rear suspensions depending on how and what they are and even swap complete bodies yet the chassis determines what the car is registered as.........as an example 40 yrs ago a mate wanted to stick a V8 in his oval window VW..........back then the only way it could be done was to find a chassis with the same wheelbase as his VW so the fenders would fit & look o/k.....the mid 50's Austin A40/Devon was found to meet the specs within about 1"......so I welded 3/16th steel plate the entire length of the chassis on its inner side then mounted a later model Oz GM front suspension sort of like a Mustang 11 and mounted a 289/C4 Ford in the chassis, he had a new floor, firewall etc made up and it was registered as a modified Austin A40............and is still owned and driven now with over 200,000 kms on it.............generally speaking its slightly easier if you want to get some sort of "conditional" registration such as "Street Rod" rego as you are given some leeway in compliancing with the various Australian Design Rules that all new cars have to meet but are limited in the distance you can drive the car for normal servicing but can use it to go to any organised run or even anywhere in Oz, but you can't drive it everyday to work........my 1940 Dodge has never been unregistered since being built by T J Richards the Oz assemblers in 1940, when I bought it in September 1971 I started to get the various bits, engine, gearbox, diff, brakes, etc "restored" as I also had an Oz 1940 Dodge coupe that I was going to hotrod.......after only doing 1000 miles on the restored engine it **** itself so I pulled all the stock mechanicals out and installed the V8..................back then, 1973 there was no requirement to have the car checked by an engineering signatory as there is now so I just advised the Rego dept that I'd changed the engine, heres the new number and bye, bye..........lol..............it would probably pass o/k but so long as I get it inspected each year for its normal roadworthiness check as normal cars need and it passes then its good to go and I can drive it whenever I like...........anyway more waffling........lol....................andyd

        

This sounds like nothing more than a "Government Controlling" tactic and cash grab.

 

Yes they need to inspect anything that is just built and in need of title, registration and insurance.

 

Every year inspection, nothing but a money grab for the government in some regards.

 

Custom work, and the inspections, and while it's all good in theory, then it can come down to being "subjective" on the part of who's in inspecting the work.

[MackTheFinger]

Is it me or are these type threads always intended to start arguments as much or more than actual discussion?? I don't particularly like one make of car more than another, they all have good and bad points; and I really can't figure out why people get so defensive over their own choice and so dismissive of others.. Chevy motor in a Plymouth?? I'm okay with that.. Dodge motor in a Ford?? Why not?? I helped a friend put a 389 Pontiac in a  '55 Dodge pickup in the early '70s and it worked out great. A friend recently installed a 4 cyl. Jeep engine in a '59 Rambler wagon last year and it's cool, too.. What's the big deal??

[55 Fargo]

17 minutes ago, MackTheFinger said:

Is it me or are these type threads always intended to start arguments as much or more than actual discussion?? I don't particularly like one make of car more than another, they all have good and bad points; and I really can't figure out why people get so defensive over their own choice and so dismissive of others.. Chevy motor in a Plymouth?? I'm okay with that.. Dodge motor in a Ford?? Why not?? I helped a friend put a 389 Pontiac in a  '55 Dodge pickup in the early '70s and it worked out great. A friend recently installed a 4 cyl. Jeep engine in a '59 Rambler wagon last year and it's cool, too.. What's the big deal??

Well it's not a big deal to you, and for the most part its of no concern to me either.

 

If someone owns a car or truck, even a vintage Mopar, I still do not have a say in how you fix, change, alter or even drive this car or truck, your money, your decision, and that's that.

 

I do not have to like it, or agree with it, but at the end of the day, your car or truck, your money, your decision, and your say.

 

But some members do not like frame swaps, engine swaps, etc, they want either stock, or near stock, Mopar cars and trucks, some will alter their brakes, or transmissions, or in my case, I have a 1 wire GM 10SI alternator, and 1950s GM brake light switch. I understand this, and support it too, some members do not like our flatheads, with dual or tri carbs and headers either, or converting to 12 volts, from 6 volts.

 

You are going to find varied responses and preferences on any Vintage Auto board you participate in. On the HAMB, Ryan does not accept any topics including vehicles after 1964, and he sets the rules. If you mention even Rat Rod, that thread could be deleted, come to mention I Hate the expletive "Rat Rod" too.

 

To each their own, and if the topic discussion is condoned by the sites rules, it will be allowed.

 

But at the end of the day, we post our likes and dislikes, as per the topic of a thread,  and we veer off the topics too, as was the case in this thread, but those post were edited for the appropriateness of there content.

 

One Mans meat, is another Mans poison.....

 

Edited April 1, 2018 by 55 Fargo Spitfire

[knuckleharley]

16 minutes ago, MackTheFinger said:

Is it me or are these type threads always intended to start arguments as much or more than actual discussion?? I don't particularly like one make of car more than another, they all have good and bad points; and I really can't figure out why people get so defensive over their own choice and so dismissive of others.. Chevy motor in a Plymouth?? I'm okay with that.. Dodge motor in a Ford?? Why not?? I helped a friend put a 389 Pontiac in a  '55 Dodge pickup in the early '70s and it worked out great. A friend recently installed a 4 cyl. Jeep engine in a '59 Rambler wagon last year and it's cool, too.. What's the big deal??

Some people, by nature, just ain't happy unless everyone wears red and marches in a straight line. It's emotional,and no amount of reason will ever sway them.

 

These are the same people that organize and join Homeowners Association Boards so they can regulate what size and color trashcans everybody else uses,and they just LOVE zoning laws.  Anyone that deviates in any way from their narrow-minded viewpoints is their natural enemy and needs to be punished.

Edited April 1, 2018 by knuckleharley

[Wiggo]

6 hours ago, 55 Fargo Spitfire said:

This sounds like nothing more than a "Government Controlling" tactic and cash grab.

 

Yes they need to inspect anything that is just built and in need of title, registration and insurance.

 

Every year inspection, nothing but a money grab for the government in some regards.

 

Custom work, and the inspections, and while it's all good in theory, then it can come down to being "subjective" on the part of who's in inspecting the work.

 

We have very similar rules here, though a lot of them were brought in to get 'cut and shut' deathtraps (two written off vehicles bought for scrap, welded together badly, and sold to some unsuspecting punter), and 'ringers' (stolen cars with forged VIN plates etc) off the roads. So here, for a vehicle with a rigid chassis, its registration and identity is determined by the chassis. It must be original (or a new OEM reproduction) and unmodified (you can box it and add outriggers, but cannot remove anything). In addition, it must have at least two of the following: axles (both), steering gear, suspension (front and rear) or engine and tranny. Fail to achieve that and it has to be registered as a brand new vehicle and meet 2018 construction and emissions laws.

 

[55 Fargo]

3 hours ago, Wiggo said:

 

We have very similar rules here, though a lot of them were brought in to get 'cut and shut' deathtraps (two written off vehicles bought for scrap, welded together badly, and sold to some unsuspecting punter), and 'ringers' (stolen cars with forged VIN plates etc) off the roads. So here, for a vehicle with a rigid chassis, its registration and identity is determined by the chassis. It must be original (or a new OEM reproduction) and unmodified (you can box it and add outriggers, but cannot remove anything). In addition, it must have at least two of the following: axles (both), steering gear, suspension (front and rear) or engine and tranny. Fail to achieve that and it has to be registered as a brand new vehicle and meet 2018 construction and emissions laws.

 

How about a 100% complete custom.built frame?

Open carriage style body for modern day Jousting....lol

Prefect cars here we come.

[Andydodge]

55Fargo, Mack, Knuckle & Wiggo......you all have good points and to be honest I generally agree with you guys, but there had been some fairly bad accidents back in the 1970's involving a couple of poorly modified old cars that really got the politicians, newspapers & TV critics after hotrodder blood and resulted in some changes that we live with now.....my car has generally been able to keep a low profile, why I've even had a few radar checked speeding tickets, 4 in fact over the past 40 yrs yet apart from a "nice old car mate" no officer has bothered to check that technically up till a few yrs ago my 10" wide rear wheels were illegal................so its all good..............each country has its good & bad points........lol.............we all need to just accept & acknowledge that & its all fine........lol.............regards from Oz......lol.......BTW....perfect cars???.......nah, so long as I can still buy some sort of fossil fuel I'll be happy......lol...........Andy Douglas 

Edited April 1, 2018 by Andydodge

[55 Fargo]

53 minutes ago, Andydodge said:

55Fargo, Mack, Knuckle & Wiggo......you all have good points and to be honest I generally agree with you guys, but there had been some fairly bad accidents back in the 1970's involving a couple of poorly modified old cars that really got the politicians, newspapers & TV critics after hotrodder blood and resulted in some changes that we live with now.....my car has generally been able to keep a low profile, why I've even had a few radar checked speeding tickets, 4 in fact over the past 40 yrs yet apart from a "nice old car mate" no officer has bothered to check that technically up till a few yrs ago my 10" wide rear wheels were illegal................so its all good..............each country has its good & bad points........lol.............we all need to just accept & acknowledge that & its all fine........lol.............regards from Oz......lol.......BTW....perfect cars???.......nah, so long as I can still buy some sort of fossil fuel I'll be happy......lol...........Andy Douglas 

Andy yes they need to be safe.

But again so many crashes demolish even brand new cars and people get injured and killed with all the safety equipment of a modern vehicle.

Edited April 1, 2018 by 55 Fargo Spitfire

[Wiggo]

2 hours ago, 55 Fargo Spitfire said:

How about a 100% complete custom.built frame?

Open carriage style body for modern day Jousting....lol

Prefect cars here we come.

A 100% custom frame has no 'identity', VIN or registration number, so to register it for the road it is treated as a brand new car and has to be tested to 2018 standards. Of course, you can start with a rotted out 1940's frame, and slowly replace every piece of steel with new, as long as it is identical to the original, and you retain the bit with the VIN stamped in... That can retain its 1940's identity and is treated as an historic vehicle.

 

Monocoque vehicles are even more problematic: you can't touch anything. No tubbed rears, modified firewalls, replaced tunnels, relocated suspension towers...

 

Having said all of that, there's a guy over here who took a London black cab chassis, with original steering, axles and suspension, then added TWO 4.2 litre Jaguar straight six engines to make an inline 12...

 

Edited April 1, 2018 by Wiggo

[T120]

To register and license a motor vehicle here in Alberta, if it has not previously been registered in the province, an out-of-province mechanical inspection must be done on the vehicle before it can be registered and licensed. This inspection is a basic safety or mechanical fitness assessment that must be performed by a certified journeyman technician who is licensed by Alberta Transportation’s Vehicle Inspection Program. I've had several vehicles inspected. The shop I've used will not do an inspection on an older vehicle if the frame has been modified...

 

 

Out of Province Mechanical Inspection.pdf

Edited April 1, 2018 by T120

[Adam H P15 D30]

Yeah, I’ve heard horror stories about those so called certified technicians. As much as California has f-upped policies, I am so thankful we are not subjected to the inspection extortion by some 25 year old punk working on flat rate. 

[T120]

I've heard sad stories as well. Prior to a required inspection, I've checked over a vehicle myself and corrected anything that I've discovered that may not pass. I'm not a "certified journeyman technician" here in Alberta and have no choice. I have been fortunate, I don't have a horror story to add...  

 

Edited April 1, 2018 by T120

[DrDoctor]

Wiggo,

   That’s one crazy set of headers!!!!!!!

[Wiggo]

38 minutes ago, DrDoctor said:

Wiggo,

   That’s one crazy set of headers!!!!!!!

 

Unsurprisingly, it's called "Medusa" and it is street legal and registered as an LTI TX2, a regular London cab. The seat is an old leather sofa. On the other side of the car are 12 polished trumpet intakes on six separate carbs. Care to guess how long they took to balance?

[Andydodge]

The standard annual safety inspection here in New South Wales is carried out by state licenced inspectors who are trade qualified motor mechanics.....they are subject to regular inspections of vehicles that have been passed by them each year by other inspectors..this applies to all vehicles except if they have a "limited use" rego then they are inspected each year by inspectors who know what they are allowed to have............as for modified vehicles you need to have it checked at least 3 times in the build by Engineer Signatorys, as a rule these guys are university qualified in mechanical engineering and tend to be experienced in metalurgy and structural design.......................my Dodge was modified before this system came into being so I only have to get the car passed its general safety inspection each year ................I'm not an apologist for this system but its what we have and it tends to keep crap off the roads......................each state in Oz has variations of this system, some slightly harder or easier....................but as Wiggo mentions the 100% new chassis even if a dead nuts copy of an original with new thicker steel still has the problem that its not an original and generally the best it can hope for is a variation of a Limited use rego.............or try for certification as an "Individually Constructed Vehicle".....essentially the same rules or ADR's(Australian Design Rules) as the 2018 cars by Ford,GM, Rolls, whatever.....................andyd  

Edited April 2, 2018 by Andydodge

[T120]

I was at a car show & shine here in Alberta a couple of years ago and spotted a 3 window coupe that caught my attention. The car looked fantastic ,body/paint, custom interior.and engine detailing. Speaking with the owner and complimenting him on the car, he said he purchased the car, (out -of- province),as it was a model he had always wanted and I gathered to say the least it wasn't cheap. He said there was a problem with the steering /front suspension and he trailered  the car to the show. I didn't press him for details.To each, his own but if you can't drive it on the highway what's the point of owning the vehicle. jmho

 

Edited April 2, 2018 by T120

[DrDoctor]

Wiggo,

   I’m not a patient person (keep in mind that I’m a retired doc), so I’m not even going to hazard a guess as to the time to tune six carburetors to one-another. The name “Medusa” is perfect for those headers. That car’s definitely “out there”, and that’s probably why I like it so much. The car I drove in undergraduate school was a chopped/sectioned/channeled/lowered Pontiac with a supercharger on the engine. It only had two inches of clearance—all of the time—NO airbags on that beast (after all, it was 1969 . . .).

 

Andy,

   And I tho’t some of the states here in the U.S. had tough standards. I’ll admit, and agree, that the intention of the inspections is to keep unsafe vehicles off of the roads, but sometimes bureaucrats get so pumped up with their own imagined self-worth, that they take it too far. The car mentioned just above failed an inspections because it didn’t have outside door handles (they were electrically operated), and the logic was that if I was in an accident, the first-responders wouldn’t be able to get the door open. I took this up to the next level of authority, and stated that if such a circumstance occurred, it’d be reasonable to just break the window, thus negating the need for an exterior door handle. The authority agreed with my logic, and the registration and license tag were issued. Just sayin’ . . . . .

 

T120,

   It sounds like just a piece of yard art to me, so I totally agree with you - what's the point?????

Edited April 2, 2018 by DrDoctor

[Adam H P15 D30]

15 hours ago, Andydodge said:

The standard annual safety inspection here in New South Wales is carried out by state licenced inspectors who are trade qualified motor mechanics.....they are subject to regular inspections of vehicles that have been passed by them each year by other inspectors..this applies to all vehicles except if they have a "limited use" rego then they are inspected each year by inspectors who know what they are allowed to have............as for modified vehicles you need to have it checked at least 3 times in the build by Engineer Signatorys, as a rule these guys are university qualified in mechanical engineering and tend to be experienced in metalurgy and structural design.......................my Dodge was modified before this system came into being so I only have to get the car passed its general safety inspection each year ................I'm not an apologist for this system but its what we have and it tends to keep crap off the roads......................each state in Oz has variations of this system, some slightly harder or easier....................but as Wiggo mentions the 100% new chassis even if a dead nuts copy of an original with new thicker steel still has the problem that its not an original and generally the best it can hope for is a variation of a Limited use rego.............or try for certification as an "Individually Constructed Vehicle".....essentially the same rules or ADR's(Australian Design Rules) as the 2018 cars by Ford,GM, Rolls, whatever.....................andyd  

California is probably in the top 5 globally in regards to the amount of hot rods or modified vehicles on the road, probably #1...  I cannot remember the last time I heard of a poorly modified vehicle causing an issue or an accident on the road because of it's modifications.  There were a few on the HAMB regarding aftermarket Ford cast I-beam axles failing but that is a purchased and supposed engineered product (by someone with an Engineering Degree no less), not a garage modification.  Believe me, if a vehicle caused an accident here because of being modified it would be all over the news!  I have also seen some really scary setups particularly with subframes or frame swaps, but no wrecks.  Most of these setups have been on the road for a long time too.   We also have some of the cr@ppiest roads and the worst traffic in the country here so they are not babied.  So, I stand by my remarks saying these gommerment mandated inspections are nothing more than extortion and control.    The data is here in California to back it up too.  The inability to see it for what it is and to defend it is shows how complacent with control society has become.

I can understand some sort of inspection in salt states because the cars just rot away from under you and I can even see the value in bi-annual smog checks but the fact that some idiot with a piece of paper (degree) who has probably never lifted a welding torch or had a grinder eat his thumb up telling me how to build a chassis is absurd.  I've been installing suspensions, pro streeting chassis, subframing vehicles for 25 years without failure and WOW I don't have a metallurgy degree or mechanical engineering degree, Why?  Because it's NOT rocket science.

Andy- In NO way am I trying to single you out and I truly apologize if it comes off that way.  You have been doing this a long time also and do some top notch work and have a beautiful MOPAR.  I especially like the early V8 you installed and proven over many  miles of enjoyment.  

 

Adam

 

EDIT: I certainly did not intend the above post to be political in any way.  I also did not intend to single anyone out.  That said, this is a debate thread as the title says, correct?

 

Edited April 2, 2018 by Adam H P15 D30

[Young Ed]

1 hour ago, Adam H P15 D30 said:

 

I can understand some sort of inspection in salt states because the cars just rot away from under you and I can even see the value in bi-annual smog checks but the fact that some idiot with a piece of paper (degree) who has probably never lifted a welding torch or had a grinder eat his thumb up telling me how to build a chassis is absurd.  

 

 

 

Yes and here in MN we have no inspections that I am aware of. Certainly no smog or safety checks on modern cars. I'm not sure if you go to license a car as a street rod if there are any sort of safety inspections at that point. 

[55 Fargo]

Hey all we need to step back from.the " keyboards" and be Kool.

Hey man build as you see fit, with what you want at the " end day" it wont mean a damn thing as long is you were having fun and not hurting anybody.

You want a Chevy chassis then have a Chevy chassis. 

You want a Ford engine or diff then do it.

Just because I don't like or agree with it means absolutely jack $hit.

Enjoy your projects as You like..

I did a Blasphemous thing today, I put my Explorer wheels on the Fargo.

I am repainting the rims and 1 is bent.

The old exploder wheels ride harsher but steer and ride real nice on the highway.

[Wiggo]

Well, in the interests of balance, my Bodge D20 has an original frame, but the previous owner added a 350 SBC, TH350 tranny and a Ford 8.8 rear axle. The floor pan appears to be made out of old Jerry cans, and it has no interior. My lad and I ripped out the 1990s GM wiring harness that had been badly spliced together from bits.

 

Today, it cranked and fired for the first time in 3 months, so it is slowly coming back to life. We test fitted one of the 1966 Daimler V8 front seats, and with a new subframe, they'll be perfect. I found a nearly period correct hood ornament at a swap meet, and cast a new tail section for it...