Front Coil Springs

[casper50]

very pricey

[DrDoctor]

   In the “real” world vs the “imaginary” world – well, I’ve considered the source, and I’ll let it go, since it’s an obvious waste of our time.

  RB1949 makes an excellent point – if a spring’s designed for a particular application, “why bother with all of these measurements”? The only reason I would advance is if the owner wants to alter ride height/handling characteristic from that as currently exists. Should a particular application not be commercially available, then one would be forced to look for alternatives by having as much data from the original spring (acknowledging the effects of time/weight/usage upon one’s current spring), and comparing it to other applications. An Aerostar’s coil spring may be a very close approximation to the original coil, and thus yield a very workable solution. If so – problem solved.

   As to Kanter’s – I don’t have any firsthand experience with them but I do know of a guy who used them. He states that the product (brake parts) worked OK, but were very expensive. He later found another source for far less money. They do have a rather large inventory of parts, tho’, often having items that aren’t easily located elsewhere. It’s certainly worth a shot . . .

   Thx.

[DJ194950]

3 hours ago, st63 said:

Has anyone used the coil springs Kanter advertises as being the appropriate Mopar application?  My '50 P-20 needs new front springs, and these are what I'm considering.

 https://www.kanter.com/content/Plymouth/kanter_Plymouth_1950_Coil_Springs_139886.html  

Wonder where they buy their springs?

Will they give you the specs if they know them?

Maybe they get them from Eaton Spring and sell for 50% more than Eaton. I know that their prices are higher than anyone else. As much as 100% more in some cases.

If money is no issue, i would say give them a try and see if they work the way you want. Do they accept returns if not satisfied?

Not trying to be argumentative  but pretty much just the things I would think/ask.

Seems there really is No perfect answer for all on this issue with old spring replacement for sure!

DJ

[DrDoctor]

  DJ194950 – you’ve made an excellent point, one that I’ve never tho’t of – does Kanter get their springs from Eaton Spring Works??? If I had to hazard a guess, I’d go with “yes, they do”. And, you’re certainly not being argumentative, just insightful, and when one’s spending hard-earned cash, that’s being prudent. Thx.

[T120]

I watched the video referred to in post 6 by "Gnome" and I thought it was OK. Now, I haven't bought springs lately - but if I were to in the future, I would probably contact Eaton. From my past personal experience it's been buy quality when you can...(pay now or pay later)

[DrDoctor]

    “Pay now, or pay later”, that says it all. Well put!!! Thx.

[rb1949]

Don't see any advantage with Kanter's inflated price. Save yourself 60 bucks. Andy B. offers "stock", but no clue as to where made, no pix, no specs. I'm not seeing any difference in the quality of the spring (pay now, pay later). (USA made). It's a personal choice as to the the end result the user wants to achieve. No matter which one chosen, many have modified them to some degree to suit their desires. Changing them several times is up to the ambition of the owner. Lots of techie talk has emerged. But from the original question, what is lacking is more response from those who have actually done the Aerostar/Mopar swap.

[42dodgeguy]

One more weigh in on the spring deal. The service manual for my Dodge (D-22 and D-24) says check the height from the grease zerk in the outer part of the lower arm to the floor of your garage, and then check the height of the inner grease zerk (where the arm attaches to the frame.) The inner should be 1/2 inch higher than the lower. I believe cutting springs upsets this geometry and affects steering? I'm thinking that this 1/2 inch deal applies to all mopars of this period, and if the number is less than the 1/2 inch you have sag, and should replace the springs, or else use some of those aluminum spacers that the parts houses used to sell? 

[Plymouthy Adams]

this same method of checking (difference A-B) also carried forward on the torsion bar suspensions...however we all know that altering the height on these is just a matter of a turn of a wrench....

Edited December 18, 2016 by Plymouthy Adams

[42dodgeguy]

One thing I didn't mention in my prior post, but which should be obvious is that when replacing springs, and altering the height,  certain alignment characteristics are altered also, especially the camber, so when we get the height right, and have the 1/2 inch differential, then we need to follow up with an alignment job.

[Alexander]

Excellent discussion!  I am also having a hard time deciding if the Aerostar springs or any other would work on my 51 dodge coronet.  I welcome the firm rid it may give, but I am still not clear what ride height it will give. Personally I am seeking a stock ride height (or near that). Perhaps that's a "relative" question/answer?  

Question/survey:  For those who have tired the Aerostar springs, if its not too much trouble, can you please report your findings in the following format? I think it will go a long way in helping people decid what they need.  Please measure the height from the front chassis to ground as shown in picture.

Year,     Make,     Spring Brand/Model,     Was it cut?     Final Height 

 

 

Thanks!

Alex

[rb1949]

I figured an alignment would help. And take the manual for guidance with the specs.

[bobd1976]

 

Not a Chrysler but here is my experience with my 48 Plymouth. Rear springs are ESPO factory replacement . Front coils are Moog 850 Aerostar. 50.00 bucks. Sat too high for my liking so I cut one inch more than one coil. RIdes and drives great.. 

[Dodgeb4ya]

Vehicle height other than factory could drastically affect camber, king pin inclination angle and even caster to a small amount.

Too high or low can possibly make these adjustments not possible...especially camber.

Edited December 20, 2016 by Dodgeb4ya

[rb1949]

BobD, that's what we're looking for. Thanks. Affects alignment. So how do these drastic low riding ground huggers deal with it? Sorry, not my style, I think they look terrible. Alex, I'm leaning toward the Aerostar and stock height. Stock replacements are readily available, avg $170. Notice your steering is on the opposite side.

[DrDoctor]

   It’s good that you’re zeroing in on a suitable solution. Should the spring you select be yield a right height too high to your liking, you can cut a coil± without compromising ride quality. Taking two or more coils will result in a rougher ride, and could thus be unsatisfactory.

   Three things to keep in mind when altering coil springs:

 1) it’s best to use a cut-off wheel, rather than a torch, to remove any unwanted coil length. Using a torch will introduce too much unwanted heat to the coil, and remove some of the tempering from that end of the coil. A cut-off wheel minimizes this heat effect; and,

2) don’t, under any circumstances, just heat the coil to reduce its length, as that’ll cause an even greater loss of tempering in a much larger area, and could result in “coil stacking” throughout the entire spring (and that’s the voice of experience, or should I more appropriately say “inexperience”, aka youth, talking); and,

3) if you do remove a coil, or part thereof, let the remaining cut end cool naturally. Don’t try to quench it with water, as you’ll only make it brittle, and that could also cause shattering of the coil (especially if you heat the coil to reduce its length – again the voice of experience/inexperience/youth speaking).

   And lastly, a front-end alignment will be mandatory. It sounds like you’ve got a plan, and I personally do love plans!!! A well developed plan removes, or at the very least minimizes, potential problems. Good luck!

   Thx.

[casper50]

here's mine with all the sheet metal back on.  Still have trim and interior to do.

[rb1949]

And what front springs are under Casper's ride?

[casper50]

Moog aerostar.

[Dartgame]

Some one asked for moog aerostar installation results. I will state again - my car is a 52 ply bus coupe. I replaced the rear springs with 8 leaf espos, and the fronts with uncut aerostars - net result is the car raised one inch in front and back compared to original 65 yr old springs. My car is very low miles with 40K on it, and although old the springs were even side to side etc.I like a rake, the fronts could be trimmed a little to fit the tires into the body - much like bobd1976 did. I might only go 3/4 of a coil - I do not have access to the car now, otherwise I would check the ride height, and report it. 

Worried about ride quality and height etc. ? - do not be - save the money and use the  aerostar springs. You wont regret it and the improvement in ride is outstanding. I found the swap is amazingly easy. Once at the full extension of the suspension travel, there is almost no tension left in the spring. So when you lower the control arm to remove it, the spring has very little load on it. I found this amazing, and delightful considering what I have heard about swapping coil springs over the years.

[Alexander]

Dartgame-  Thank you for your feedback!!  Just what we needed to help others make the decision.  One more very important question if you don't mind.  What is the total height of the front when measured from the front chassis cross member to the ground (reference above picture from Alexander).

[rb1949]

Thanks Dart, for the follow up. Apparently you didn't, but debating having an internal spring compressor handy. Anyone know if Autozone has the correct one for a 'loaner"? No work out there in the cold season, but might as well shop for the Aerostar CC850 springs and get them ordered. My first look saw that the price does fluctuate just a bit, with free shipping. Another item in the to-do pile. Keep the comments coming.

edit: do shop, quite a difference in prices. Checked again this morning, and found Rock Auto with the best deal. Lowest price, with fast shipping, can get them here for $53.

edit 2: people are calling these progressive springs. The product description says different.

CC850 - Variable Pitch Spring; Sold In Pairs Moog offers two types of coil springs: constant-rate springs that restore handling to its original state, and cargo-coil, variable-rate springs as an upgrade for vehicles that carry heavy loads. Moog's constant-rate springs are built to replace original equipment springs, returning ride height and body sway to original performance levels. Replacing worn coil springs with Moog constant-rate springs restores vehicle handling. The cargo-coil, variable-rate springs change resistance as they compress and become progressively stiffer as the load increases.

Edited January 11, 2017 by rb1949

[Bingster]

One of the things I like about these old cars is the nice cushy ride. Not bouncy, but you can feel that heavy steel smoothly cruising along. I don't have anything to compare to with regard to these cars when they were new.   So I don't know if the ride I felt when I got the cars was simply a worn out spring and shock ride.  I hear you guys saying that the cars handle much better with new springs, which I can understand.  But how different is the "crossing over r.r. tracks" cushion type of ride with new springs as compared to leaving on the old?

[Niel Hoback]

 That's a great question. My Plymouth rides much smoother over rr crossings and dips and rises in the pavement than my Buick Lucerne. It doesn't have that quick steering, almost sporty handling of the Buick either.

  It's ironic in that when I bought that Buick, I wanted the ride of the P15, but nobody makes a car like that now. So, I am forced to drive a 69 year old car to get a good ride. 

  Would I put Aerostar springs on my Plymouth? Not if it's going to make it ride like a Buick. I've already got one of those.

[rb1949]

1949-1950 Plymouth:

Up front, the cars used coil springs with different rates on the right and left sides because, Plymouth's engineers reasoned, highways in the eastern United States, as well as Canada, were more steeply crowned than those in the West. (Hemmings)