51 Pilot House Project (engine swap/auto trans/mustang ll front end)

[55 Fargo]

We might have a weak engine scenario here that a different trans won't fix, and that doesn't rectify the steering and suspension issues either.

Yes this certainly is a possible scenario.

These engines, especially the smaller 201,218, worn out, might have only 50-60 hp at the wheel and the torque thrust way down.

Now my truck, has a 228, or 237, have not verified for sure, but the stroke is  4 1/4, so either one, always thought it was a 250, before the stroke measurement. A fresh 250 or 265 with some hop up stuff will no doubt boost things a lot more, this should apply to a 218 or 230 SB too. Sometimes this is not a cheap endeavor, some guys don't see the monetary investment when they can join the masses with an LS SBC, I am not 1 of those thinkers.

I have 3.23 gears, so cruising at 65-70 mph is easy, the front end springs and steering are in decent form.

However, getting to speed, from 40 mph to 60 mph, is slow, the 3.23 gears, an engine a bit tired perhaps, add a hill or head wind, and cars lined up behind a guy, spells stress......LOL

I am very lucky, as I can drive mostly in very low traffic situations in my immediate area, and avoid the busier areas too.

But in some areas, the Phoenix area, the LA area, and many others in Canada or the USA, requires a vehicle to be safe and to fit in so to speak. Driving on the freeways in and around LA going 50-55 mph, unless traffic is jammed up and crawling aint going to be that special old car/truck drive experience.

The old technology ride is not for everyone, sometimes not sure it's for me either.....LOL

[Jeff Balazs]

Am I the only one here that is perfectly happy with the stock suspension and steering ? When I put my 52 3/4 ton back on the road one of the first things I did was take it in to an old school alignment and suspension shop because I thought the steering effort felt too light for a vehicle of this vintage. It turned out to be just fine. Yes you have to use your arms a bit when getting into a tight parking space.......so what? Our arms are meant to be used.......use 'um or lose 'um.

 

The suspension on my truck feels much better than I would have ever expected it to. Nice and supple with the addition of gas shocks. It handles pretty much everything I throw at it without a fuss. It does have a vintage feel to it. That is OK too.......after all it is a 60 year old truck and not an easy chair. The whole point of having an old truck like this is to feel like you are part of the journey. Change too much and well ......you might as well trade it for an new Escalade.

 

I honestly think that these trucks were some of the very best of the day. Take that and build upon it instead of just putting the body on some modernized chassis.

Make it as good as it can be within the limitations of the original design and then you will have something.

 

FWIW. Jeff

[55 Fargo]

Am I the only one here that is perfectly happy with the stock suspension and steering ? When I put my 52 3/4 ton back on the road one of the first things I did was take it in to an old school alignment and suspension shop because I thought the steering effort felt too light for a vehicle of this vintage. It turned out to be just fine. Yes you have to use your arms a bit when getting into a tight parking space.......so what? Our arms are meant to be used.......use 'um or lose 'um.

 

The suspension on my truck feels much better than I would have ever expected it to. Nice and supple with the addition of gas shocks. It handles pretty much everything I throw at it without a fuss. It does have a vintage feel to it. That is OK too.......after all it is a 60 year old truck and not an easy chair. The whole point of having an old truck like this is to feel like you are part of the journey. Change too much and well ......you might as well trade it for an new Escalade.

 

I honestly think that these trucks were some of the very best of the day. Take that and build upon it instead of just putting the body on some modernized chassis.

Make it as good as it can be within the limitations of the original design and then you will have something.

 

FWIW. Jeff

Again, I have to agree, this stock suspension front end, good king pins, tie rod ends, steering box, leaf springs and hangers, add a an anti-sway bar, and the "Cats Pajamas".

With a disc brake kit, this is a rugged basic suspension,  as per Flaming on some leaf spring removal, lowering the "center of gravity" somewhat, or better yet an anti-sway bar, reduces roll.

Driving yesterday, with really no weight in the box, ( the less added weight the better for more power), road very much like the bigger trucks I used to drive back in the 1980s delivering Meat, the truck sorta feel, very adequate, and simple too boot.

This style of front end, in premium condition can handle a big V8 no problem, why shouldn't it, big trucks have the same and do it all the time...

okay I will add this, and it isn't a slam either, a lotta of guys, maybe younger guys, simply cannot live without , IFS, power steering, bagged suspensions, power this and power that, and want there old car or truck to look like one, but handle and perform like a 2000s vehicle, there I said it, and that's okay if you are this category.

Edited March 11, 2016 by Fargos-Go-Far

[wayfarer]

Am I the only one here that is perfectly happy with the stock suspension and steering ?

 

 

 

Lots-o-folks like the trucks in oem format....but, just perhaps, the Lady isn't one of your kin. She likes the looks and maybe 'needs' a more modern approach to drivability. I can't find anything wrong with her 'wants' ...  now, if she was talking sbc then I'd happily bash the idea...

MaMopar has give us plenty of swappable parts and pieces and idiot drivers have given us plenty of bone yards to scavenge from....

[NiftyFifty]

Am I the only one here that is perfectly happy with the stock suspension and steering ? When I put my 52 3/4 ton back on the road one of the first things I did was take it in to an old school alignment and suspension shop because I thought the steering effort felt too light for a vehicle of this vintage. It turned out to be just fine. Yes you have to use your arms a bit when getting into a tight parking space.......so what? Our arms are meant to be used.......use 'um or lose 'um.

 

The suspension on my truck feels much better than I would have ever expected it to. Nice and supple with the addition of gas shocks. It handles pretty much everything I throw at it without a fuss. It does have a vintage feel to it. That is OK too.......after all it is a 60 year old truck and not an easy chair. The whole point of having an old truck like this is to feel like you are part of the journey. Change too much and well ......you might as well trade it for an new Escalade.

 

I honestly think that these trucks were some of the very best of the day. Take that and build upon it instead of just putting the body on some modernized chassis.

Make it as good as it can be within the limitations of the original design and then you will have something.

 

FWIW. Jeff

Yes....yes you are....LOL I'm guessing your parking stalls in the US are bigger...that was my biggest beef with my truck...having the 9' box and strong arm steering sucked when I parked in a lot and got surrounded and had to back out...hardly any room to maneuver and my power steering now makes that a much easier process. We're also talking about the driver of this truck being female, and no digs on strength, but I'm sure it's maybe a bit tougher in those same type of tight spots, so IFS and PS solves that issue, even a manual rack might turn easier but not likely enough to make a difference. I'm not sold that adding on to original is any better then a frame swap, as you have to modify so many parts, that in realty what's really left of the original? The Dakota frame was built to work with all those never components and even though not built with that old body in mind...the frame and suspension don't really car what's above them, as long as they weigh roughly what they were built for. Mocking the original frame to all the upgrades is a fabricators game, not to be taken as an easier option then a swap IMO

[55 Fargo]

Here you go, OEM suspension, engine, trans and modern 3.23 diff.

\I also have found it tough a few times in really tight spots, but mostly not, and not a big deal for me, but can see this as a problem for others.

 

[Don Coatney]

I do hope that the originality of this vehicle does not get lost in upgrades done by someone that does not understand what is required to complete such upgrades. Many times I have seen upgrades attempted by less than skilled and understanding folks and what was a beautiful vehicle has been reduced to the crusher. This is not meant to rain on your parade but to make sure whatever you do is done safely and correctly.

 

  

[NiftyFifty]

Your right with that picture Don....I mean who would drop all that yellow paint on that lower control arm....animals! Enjoying old vehicles is a personal experience, and some enjoy the part of what was, and how it was, and other just enjoy the look and design, more then the originality of things like power train and suspension, which I likely fall into. Neither one is better then the other, and nobody can tell another what preference they should have...and honestly if the owner doesn't enjoy the truck in its current format, I would fully encourage the change, rather then sell the truck that she loves. I hope the OP finds a good shop to work with, and can get the truck back as a daily driver.

[Jeff Balazs]

My satisfaction with the the ride quality and manuverability of my truck may have something to do with the fact that it is a 3/4 ton model with a 116" wheel base. I determined early on that this model was the most likely to give me what I wanted out of an old truck and never even considered any other model.

 

If I were going to try and get a better ride out of a 1/2 ton model along with modern upgrades to the drive train I think I would look very hard at an entire chassis swap. I would think it would just be more cost effective as opposed to trying to mod what is there. That said it would be hard for me to do this with such a nice truck as a starting point. Perhaps you could sell the truck as it is and find a decent donor body? You could use the proceeds to augment the budget. Just an idea.

 

Jeff

Edited March 11, 2016 by Jeff Balazs

[Ram Man 02]

I'm not sold that adding on to original is any better then a frame swap, as you have to modify so many parts, that in realty what's really left of the original? The Dakota frame was built to work with all those never components and even though not built with that old body in mind...the frame and suspension don't really car what's above them, as long as they weigh roughly what they were built for. Mocking the original frame to all the upgrades is a fabricators game, not to be taken as an easier option then a swap IMO

Since i moved past the frame swap idea a few years ago i havent given it much thought so i went back and looked at some notes i made from my researching. the stock pilothouse 1/2ton rear axle width is 62". this is from WMS (wheel mount surface) to WMS. the front axle is 60.5". with a wheel base of 108".

 

Regular cab short box S10 has a 108.3" wheel base and the track width is 54.4"

 

First gen dakotas in regular cab short box version have a 112" wheel base but i found between 60.8" and 59.X" widths.

 

With those dimensions you are either going to have to figure out how to widen an S10 frame by 6" which could be done with different offset wheels or cut 4" of length from a dakota. After looking at this again i remember why i had the idea of grafting the dakota front frame section to the pilothouse. it was going to have to be cut anyway. as a bonus the early dakotas 87-90 have the same 5x4.5" bolt pattern as the pilothouse.

 

4mula- im not sure what modifications you are thinking about but in my head there are less modifications and less time involved in the mustang kit compared to a complete frame swap. I planned to jack the front of the truck up and put it on stands around the front body mounts. strip the front clip off and set it to the side. and pull the motor and transmission so theyre not in my way. these are all things that are going to have to be done with a frame swap as well except i dont have to touch the cab or the box. Before removing the solid front axle you mark the center line of it on the frame so the mustang crossmember and spring plates get put in the right spot so the wheel is centered in the fender opening. then you start welding the kit on. everythng in the kit is brand new, they include all the bolts and nuts, and they use off the self parts were possible. the springs and rack come from a fox body mustang, the calipers come from a chevelle and because i opted for the 4.5" bolt pattern they use full size ford sedan 11" rotors. all the custom made pieces are what get wleded to the frame and are specifically made to fit the pilothouse frame. Theres no need to worry about rebuilding brakes or suspension pieces because the donor truck is 20yrs old.

 

I also went back and edited a previous post because i forgot to mention they engineer the crossmember and spring plates with a couple degrees caster built into them so every application vehicle they sell kits for will handle more like a modern vehicle. when i was looking through the parts right after i got everything in the mail you can see the plates are cut at a slight angle. There is no fabrication or modifying needed by the installer. all you do is mark center of axle and start welding. If you wished to move the wheels forward or backward because for some reason you want to, its as simple as making the appropriate center mark before welding. using the front cab mount are a good reference point.

When i go to reinstall my front clip there will be no surprises because im still using the stock frame so all the bolt holes will be in the correct spots. I suppose i could even put the stock flathead back in but i have no intention of doing that.

 

the 1 thing they dont supply that everyone recommends and the dakota already has is a boxed front section of the frame. some 1/8" or 3/16" plate is really all the is needed.

 

Both routes are going to require redoing steering columns and some brake lines at a minimum, but i feel the extra upfront cost more then pays for itself on the back end in time savings. Plus body mount fabrication, gas tank, clutch and brake pedals all need to be fabbed with a frame swap. then you have to reinstall all the body panels.

 

EDIT:

 

This i a video Tim made but this is exactly what im planning to do. all im touching is from the firewall forward

Edited March 12, 2016 by Ram Man 02

[Ram Man 02]

Even with the Fatman set up you will have to box the frame and also if running the power steering pump of a 318/360 you will need to use a preasure reducer at the rack an d pinion unit

went through my paper work and found info on the rack and pinion. "the power rack and pinion we have supplied with your kit is from a 79-93 mustang. this is not the lower pressure 74-78 mustang 2 rack".

 

I didnt know mustangs had different pressure racks but that tells me that any standard power steering pump should work?

[NiftyFifty]

I wouldn't say it's all that easy too just mark and weld in the M2 set up, you first need to be sure that your frame is 100% straight, and box the fame as well...my biggest concern would be that your now welding in the most important parts on the truck, and Dons picture is a prime example why although some people say they can weld...it's obvious they can't. Cutting and splicing a frame is no less important, but it's also not just a butt weld, and any I've seen have also been braced with plates and bolts...so somewhat a back up. As I say, one frame was engineered for all the improved parts...the other we are making things fit.

[ruff1148kr]

I was not talking about a low pressure rack of any kind I was told Saganaw pumps used on older mopars are 3 gal per min and ford racks are set up for 2 gal per min pump   if pressure reducer is not used you get might get hyper steering  but I may be wrong.

[Plymouthy Adams]

you can buy an adjustable inline pressure regulator and plumb it in if needed.....making comingling of systems very easily done....set the unit to match your chassis and personal feedback for driving..

[Ram Man 02]

I just wanted to give an update:

 

This IFS thread got me thinking about the direction of my own truck this spring and how i never seem to have the free time or extra money at the right times to follow through on installing my IFS, motor, and transmission. I want to do them all at the same time so the truck remains somewhat mobile.

 

I was looking through the MSRA (Minnesota Street Rod Association) monthly magazine recently. I rarely look through the classifieds but this time i did and i saw an advertisement for a local shop that specializes in hot roding old vehicles. They listed several services they offer but the 1 that caught my eye was the IFS Kits, so i called them just to see. The owner was very nice and said they happened to be installing a Heidts IFS in a 50 GMC right now and if i wanted to see how it was done to stop in. Theyre only 35-40 mins from my house so i took him up on it. He showed me around the shop and all the projects they have going at the moment. They ranged from freeing up some stuck valves on a 62 impala to a full custom body V12 firetruck.

 

He had several guys working on cars and introduced me to the guy that does all their frame work. I told them what im planning to do and that i had a Fatman IFS already and was wondering what it would cost to have them install it.

 

He said they charge $65/hr and that total time would depend on how much prep work i did before hand. If it comes in with the motor, transmission, steering wheel, steering box, and pedals all removed so the only thing left is the axle and tires so it will roll, it would take about 2 days to complete. that comes to $1040. I also asked about a worst case scenario and he didnt think it could take more then 20hrs even with major rust clean up. so that $1300. Thats a pretty tempting price and i might just take them up on it.

Edited May 3, 2016 by Ram Man 02

[ggdad1951]

what shop is that?

[Ram Man 02]

Car Creations in Fridley

[moparme2]

I would like to see that finished product before the motor goes back in.  I'm dong a FatMan MII on my 57.  Mine is getting a Wedge motor with front and rear motor plates and a 727 TF.  I am boxing the complete frame as well.

Thanks,

Bryan

[John U]

I have a power rack in my 51 I got a kit from borgensen to reduce pressure I think it was less than 15 bucks you have to pull the fitting off the pump not a big deal you add or subtract washers they supply good easy to understand instructions worked well steering was to touchy no more wandering

[albolton]

I can tell you that I have 15K plus in my drive train swap and did 95 percent of the work myself, its the small stuff that kills you, however this is the second one I did, I had the budget and didn't skimp on anything that I can think of, the truck handles like a new car, and has tons of go.

but...all that being said, the first one I did was on a budget, and was still a ton of fun, a little patience goes a long way. the big money is in the IFS, stay with the stock axle, you can still add disc brakes, and a rack, lower it and stiffen it up. Its not IFS but it still works fine.

If you stay with the stock axle you no longer need to cut the firewall and rework the transmission tunnel because you can mount the engine a little lower in the frame.

go with a one wire alternator set up and your charging system is up and running. there are lots of decent engines for sale that don't need to be completely rebuilt. buy a decent 360, put a cam in it, reseal it, paint it add some chrome and drive the thing. the truck is light as hell so you don't need 400 horses to be happy.