A bad OD day in the boonies

[Dodgeb4ya]

Probably the planetary and sun gear failure as you thought....all this because of low oil level especially in the back case half.

[martybose]

Well I got the call this afternoon; it's ready to go.  The quote had been $800 + parts, the total was just under $1400, so $600 for the parts and tax.  When I asked if he knew where the leak was that caused it, he basically listed virtually every place that you could leak from, but said that he thought it was all sealed up now.  I'll go pick it up tomorrow, and hopefully see some of the old parts just for morbid curiosity.  He said that he drove it around his neighborhood, and it shifted fine and was totally silent.

 

Marty

[martybose]

Well, it is a good news/bad news kind of day.  The good news; I brought the 47 home, and the OD has been repaired.  The bad news; it doesn't work right now.  The problem is electrical, which is strange because I have never had an electrical problem.  I'm going to have to dig out my wiring diagrams, make sure everything is hooked up right, then start debugging it.  Mechanically the OD is working, going into freewheel when the cable is pushed in.  But the pawl from the solenoid won't engage, so no OD.  I don't hear the relay clicking inside the car, and I already verified that no fuses are blown, so the hunt begins.

 

The interesting thing was seeing the old pieces.  The failure mechanism was interesting.  The sun gear has three small gears on shafts that go between the ring gear and the output shaft.  The failure is that due to lack of lubrication the bearing on the three gear shafts starts to wear, and the gears shift away from the sun gear until there isn't enough gear contact to prevent the gears from chewing on each other.  Chaos follows immediately.

 

The other interesting thing was the comment that everything inside the casing was coated with what he described as a thick tar that is almost impossible to clean off. He said at first he thought the output shaft was toast, but after he finally got it cleaned up it was fine.  That was great news, since that was the one piece he couldn't replace, as the Dodge piece is unique to the application.  He said that the tar is a residual from the GL-1 oil we need to run, and that because if it the oil should be drained from the tranny and OD housings every couple of years or 5000 miles and replaced with fresh GL-1.  I'd never heard that before.

 

More updates when I figure it out.

 

Marty

[Ulu]

Natural oils (not synthetics like Amsoil) actually go "rancid" with time and exposure to oxygen.

 

You need to change motor oils twice a year and gear oils each year or two to prevent this.

 

Or use synthetic oil.

 

I have not used synthetics in the flathead, because they leak out easier. They don't get thick in the cold, but your engine loosens up in the cold, and it leaks.

 

I do use synthetic gear oils, because they're thick enough not to leak easily. Also they do not go rancid with age.

 

But they still collect dirt, and changing that oil is the best way to get rid of that dirt. Anyhow 2-years is fine with synthetics, and I've gone over 4 on my motorcycle and it still smells good.

 

When oil smells bad, it is bad. That's what I mean by "rancid". It will have a sour varnish smell or similar depending on the brand of oil.

 

You might like to read this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rancidification

[DJ194950]

Marty,

 

Are you running all the stock type electrical wiring/switches/ kick down etc.?

 

Did the shop check the trans op. with the OD ON??

[Dodgeb4ya]

Well, it is a good news/bad news kind of day.  The good news; I brought the 47 home, and the OD has been repaired.  The bad news; it doesn't work right now.  The problem is electrical, which is strange because I have never had an electrical problem.  I'm going to have to dig out my wiring diagrams, make sure everything is hooked up right, then start debugging it.  Mechanically the OD is working, going into freewheel when the cable is pushed in.  But the pawl from the solenoid won't engage, so no OD.  I don't hear the relay clicking inside the car, and I already verified that no fuses are blown, so the hunt begins.

 

The interesting thing was seeing the old pieces.  The failure mechanism was interesting.  The sun gear has three small gears on shafts that go between the ring gear and the output shaft.  The failure is that due to lack of lubrication the bearing on the three gear shafts starts to wear, and the gears shift away from the sun gear until there isn't enough gear contact to prevent the gears from chewing on each other.  Chaos follows immediately.

 

The other interesting thing was the comment that everything inside the casing was coated with what he described as a thick tar that is almost impossible to clean off. He said at first he thought the output shaft was toast, but after he finally got it cleaned up it was fine.  That was great news, since that was the one piece he couldn't replace, as the Dodge piece is unique to the application.  He said that the tar is a residual from the GL-1 oil we need to run, and that because if it the oil should be drained from the tranny and OD housings every couple of years or 5000 miles and replaced with fresh GL-1.  I'd never heard that before.

 

More updates when I figure it out.

 

Marty

I have seen and repaired many OD's over the years and when the OD back case half gets low on oil the planetary set and sun gear get very hot and "cook" the oil because of the extreme heat build upwith no oil lubrication and cooling. Finally the sun and planetary gears seize up. Keep em full of oil and you are good to go. I don't change the oil in my R-10 transmissions...just keep checking that they are full with good oil. Never have had any issue's and won't

[Ulu]

Normally you shouldn't have to worry about gear oil going bad from age. It eventually does but using it 10 years is not usually a problem.

 

But moisture can get inside sometimes, and I like to change it every couple years for that, and to see what shavings and metal dust comes out in the oil.

 

You don't have combustion byproducts in the gear oil, so it takes much longer to go rancid; but it does.

[Plymouthy Adams]

basically oil gets dirty..it loses it additives if added at all but the base dino is still there and doing its job...but one can cook it to a crisp..man has a way to destroy all things he creates and even those he did not

[martybose]

Well, things have gotten interesting.  My current problem is an odd electrical one.  The lockout switch is open when the cable-operated lever is disengaged, and is supposed to close as soon as the lever is moved to the engaged position so that the governor signal can reach the relay.  I took out the switch and I can make it connect manually, but apparently there isn't enough throw when installed to make it work.  I even removed the copper washer and scraped the paint off of the mating surface to see if I could get it to work, but no luck.  The tranny shop doesn't have that switch, as it is a Mopar-unique application he doesn't carry.  The switch doesn't appear to be possible to take it apart to adjust.

 

Does anyone have an extra lockout switch that I can buy?

 

My other problem is a damaged wire from the governor to the lockout switch, and I'll fix that tomorrow.

 

Marty

[plyroadking]

If you search ebay for 1370462 you should find a couple. I find them hard to come by and also to be a common item that is non-functional on the ods I find and rebuild.

[martybose]

If you search ebay for 1370462 you should find a couple. I find them hard to come by and also to be a common item that is non-functional on the ods I find and rebuild.

Thank you for the part number; found several, and should receive one of them by next Monday.

 

Marty

[martybose]

Okay, now it's getting weird.  I received the brand new lockout switch that I ordered, put it in, and it doesn't work either!  Before I put it in I confirmed that it makes a connection when the ball is pushed in, but apparently the ball isn't pushed in enough in the car.  I'm going to actually measure everything tomorrow and see what gives.

 

Marty

[Dodgeb4ya]

Is the interlock plunger installed under the lockout switch? The lock out switch won't function with out that 1/2" plunger.

 

Another note...

The OD shift lever shaft needs to be installed correctly to move that short lock out plunger that then pushes in the switch ball.

Edited October 2, 2015 by Dodgeb4ya

[martybose]

Is the interlock plunger installed under the lockout switch? The lock out switch won't function with out that 1/2" plunger.

 

Another note...

The OD shift lever shaft needs to be installed correctly to move that short lock out plunger that then pushes in the switch ball.

I had no idea that there was an additional piece in between the shaft and the switch!  I will be taking one of the photos back to the transmission shop to find it tomorrow!  I am eternally grateful!

 

Marty

[steveplym]

Actually with using synthetic oil in my engines, the results I had was it slowed down the leaks. Others had told me the same thing.

I had never heard of draining the od and refilling it every 5000 miles, but I could see where it would be a good idea, even though that oil isn't cheap. Although an od repair ain't cheap either.

[Plymouthy Adams]

again the very importance of owning a service manual, inspect the oil level every 1000 miles and replenish as needed and change the lubrication every 20,000 or two year interval.

[Ulu]

Yup.

 

Twice a year for engine oil (at least...) and every two years for gear oil.

That was pretty typical in the 40's~60's.

 

I have not known synthetic engine oil to cure an oil leak. It is thinner when cold and usually leaks out easier when sitting.

BUT, if it was thin enough to swell a gasket, or had enough additives to swell a seal, then I suppose it might happen.

 

It retains viscosity better when hot, so the engine might leak less when hot.

 

But I wouldn't bet a buck on any particular car behaving that way.

Edited October 2, 2015 by Ulu

[doctor dirt]

Great thread thank you, my coupe is heading to a retired garage repair owner whose buddy is a retired tranny mechanic.

My tranny was leaking badly and was repaired and since has about 500 miles without troubles. The OD wasn't trouble shot

at the tranny shop, he obviously didn't want to go there even with my OD manual.

Hoping everything works out for you.

Your thread could be very helpfull, thank you. I'll post what I learn as soon as I have info.

 

Doc.

[martybose]

again the very importance of owning a service manual, inspect the oil level every 1000 miles and replenish as needed and change the lubrication every 20,000 or two year interval.

Of course, one of the problems with a car like mine is that they never had an OD from the factory, so there is no reference in the FSM to OD maintenance.    I had to get an FSM for a much later Plymouth to get the OD info.

 

Marty

 

PS  Dr. Dirt, one of the surprises I got with this episode, aside from proving I'm an idiot for not keeping an eye on the oil level, is that even shops that are familiar with the R10 OD are not necessarily familiar with the Mopar variant, since apparently it is the only one that has the additional electrical components that Mopar used.  That was why the guy that rebuilt the mechanics of my R10 didn't realize he was missing an itty-bitty piece that went into the lockout switch installation; the missing piece will probably turn out to be the reason that the OD won't engage at the moment.

[Plymouthy Adams]

I knew that not come from the factory was going to come up but you know very well the year of application and thus the very factory manual that covers 1946 through 1954 for the Plymouth is the only real book you need for service....and as you state you have that manual...then the very information was in you hands and I cannot again repeat myself enough to become FULLY familiar with the entire book..every section..it is there for a reason...

Edited October 3, 2015 by Plymouthy Adams

[doctor dirt]

Thanks Marty, just dropped the coupe off and left my manuals and a list of components that have been added to the car too.

I gave him the sites address and told him theres a thread going on now about the R10 unit and theres theres good info being shared. Very receptive

fellow and has a beautiful set up at his home. He's a GM chevey guy but I can't hold that against him ha! He has a few camaro's and chevelles that look

very nice.

 

Hoping for the best the car ran great at around 2,500 rpm the speedo was flipping around but I guess I was 50 to 55mph and ran 60 miles. Back roads

rt 70 where the jerks with the spooled up Dodge pick ups are running 90mph in every direction. Idiots!

 

Doc.

[martybose]

Well, this experience hasn't gotten any better.  Today I tried to put in the little plunger that the transmission shop found that looked like the missing one, and it is too small.  The one they found was about 1/4 inch OD, and just rattled around when I put it in.  I pulled out my set of centering punches, and found that the hole in the casting is just larger than 3/8 inch, so that is what I need.  I left a message for the transmission shop to look again, but don't have much hope that they will find it.  Does anyone have a destroyed R10 that still has the plunger for the lockout switch still in it?  Otherwise I'm out for the count.

 

Marty, in a bad mood .......

[deathbound]

My grandfathers od did something similar several years ago, I believe it had something to do with the pawl, and it broke the solenoid shaft. I've got spares for just about every part in the transmission and overdrive unit if you need parts.

 

 

Try George Asche also.

 

Here are a couple options from page 1.

[martybose]

I had left a message for the tranny shop that I still had the wrong plunger, and told him it looked like it was 3/8"x5/8".  He called me this morning that he went through his bucket of misc stuff, and may have found it.  I've picked it up, and it at least looks right; I'll put on some old clothes, crawl under and try it tomorrow.

 

Marty, fingers crossed ......

[Reg Evans]

I've got my fingers crossed for ya too !