What do I tell the machine shop to watch for on a rebuild?

[Mr. Belvedere]

O.k. I am aware that most machine shops today are no longer familiar with flathead engines. So what do I tell them to be sure and check for and or install properly, that isn't common to other engines? I am terrified of spending alot of money on a rebuild only to have some thing go wrong internally shortly after putting it back in the car. I have heard alot of horror stories out there about rebuilds on these flatheads that went awry. In fact thats what happened on my parts car. The guy that owned it prior to me said something went wrong with the rebuild, he took it back and got in a fight with the shop shortly after, and went down picked it up, partially torn down. Thats when he sold it to me as a parts car. Depressing and scary, I definitely don't want to run into the same issue. Any advice is much appreciated. Thanks, Richard

[james curl]

Valve guides, exhaust go one way and intake install 180 from exhaust. The plug in the head at #6 cylinder. My machine shop thought that my head had a flaw in the casting and fixed it, did not charge after I pointed out that they had messed my head up because now when you pull the plug in #6 you cannot insert a rod into it to find top dead center.

[claybill]

piston pin fit....new old stock pistons or new castings. new cast pistons kits are better than the old ones.....fit them up and double check pin fit.

bill

[builtfercomfort]

One forum member had trouble where the machine shop did not properly clean out all the oil passages, even though the block was said to be hot-tanked. Apparently you may need to poke them with wire and soak in solvent to make sure they are clear.

[Norm's Coupe]

The best thing to tell the shop is simply, "Rebuild my engine." Then let them tear it down and see what is needed and go from there.

Think of thinking taking your engine for rebuild to a shop as you would finding a good doctor to perform an operation on you. Would you let a doctor operate on you if you didn't trust him, or had to instruct him on the proper way to perform an operation? Of course not. The best thing to do is search around your local area for a good shop that works on older engines. There's almost always at least one around. About the only thing a good shop may need is help locating the parts, but usually a good shop already knows that too.

Check with the other car nuts in your area. I'm sure they can recommend a good shop you can trust, without standing over their shoulder. The only time you should need to instruct a shop on how to rebuild the engine, is if you want to make it into a high performance engine. Then you should only need to tell them to what extent.

[greg g]

The number 1 most important item is that the connecting rods are offset. It is imperative that they be marked and used back in the same cylinder position as they came out of. (Unless of course, this was what was screwed up in the previous rebuild. Front and rear main seals seem to be a problem area, as some of thecars used an impregnated roap seal which can lead to problems if it is replaced you the later style and not done correctly. Centering the front timing cover, and assuring the little oil dribbler in is place under the cover is also important. Then there is the indexing of the oil pump so that the distributor drive lines up correctly. A correctly indexed pump should have the distributor rotor pointing at 7 o'clock for Compression TDC of #1 cylinder.

As you can see in the pic, my guy (whose been in business since 1964) assembled the piston / rod assemblies, and marked them for the proper assembly placement and allignment. If your concerned about the performance of the machine shop, maybe you need to find anouther one. Check your area for a shop that does tractors, forklifts, airport tugs, or other industrial equipment as many of these still run flat head sixes. If you can't find on familiar with the breed, get your agreements in writing. Machine shops are more like veterinarians, than doctors, the need to be familiar with several different anatomies. Horses, cats and dogs all have livers, but they might not be in exactely the same place, same with these old engines.

[Young Ed]

Another thing I would do is post your location in here. Someone may know of a good shop in your area. I have a great one in MN. To him a flathead is a modern engine. He does stuff from the teens all the time.

[Mr. Belvedere]

Thanks, for all the info. I am in southern california, LA area, if anyone knows of a good shop w/experiance on these engines I am open to suggestions.

[Norm's Coupe]

Greg,

All of what you said was good. However, if he does a little networking with the locals, I'm sure he'll find a shop. They may not advertise that they do old engines, but they're there. I know of at least two shops within 5 minutes of me, one about 15 minutes away and a 4th one about 25 miles up the road that could rebuild our engines in their sleep. They also have the old repair manuals to look up whatever information they need and know where to get the parts. You necessarily need to talk to a Mopar car nut to find them. I found 3 of these shops by networking with old Ford guys. This forum is great, but it doesn't take the place of hands on local networking. The shop I found on my own is only 5 minutes away. Found him before I bought my coupe because he had a P15 Business coupe for sale before I bought my coupe. Wasn't his but he had rebuilt the engine in it for his customer. He recently rebuilt the engine in a 63 AMC, 6 cylinder. About a month ago when I was talking to him, he had just purchased a 52 Chevy pickup for his self. Was waiting for it to be delivered from Kansas or Nebraska (forgot which). He will then rebuild it. A good mechanic can work on any car. You just have to find them.

This is also the same shop I had rebuild my MC on my P15 when I couldn't get it off the car in 1995. He had not seen my coupe because he was on vacation when I took it in. He didn't have to be there to instruct his other mechanics on how to rebuild it or adjust the brakes. They also knew how to do it. He didn't know I even had the coupe until I took my wife in it to pick up her car after having the oil changed about a month ago. That got him out of his office real fast when I parked in front of the shop with it. He had to look and hear it running.

So people and shops are in our local areas if we look for them.

[Dennis Hemingway]

You can check with It's_Heaven_in_a_47, he just put up a thread about getting his engine rebuilt. I think that Arthur1947 had his rebuilt in the Victorville area.

Dennis:cool:

[Plymouthy Adams]

Just my opinion, but, if you need to tell them anything, it is NOT to work on my engine as a good shop will have that data onhand and WILL reference it during the course of repair...basically..they will clean the block, inspect for cracks, bore minimum standard oversize..fit new cam bearing, new core plugs, inspect and turn the crank only if needed..undersize bearings are available for standard wear in .001, 002 and .003 to install on a micro-polished cranks that has not been scored. Cleanliness is the key...new chain, timing gears, oil pump...cam specs checked...probably the most important part of this is the piston fit, bore then last few thousands are hone fit for clearance..the valves should get all new exhaust..these get undercut too many times and are usually installed out of length. Guides are more than not a good investment at any time, never but never let a shop say they can knurl to fit..that is BS..short time fix at best..leave this for chevy engines that smoke at 2000 miles anyway..Piston ifit is key, piston lands are to be decoked..odds are these are about banged beyond as it is...new pistons and pins should be fit...anything less is not an rebuild but a refresh...

If the shop has to ask for specs..leave and carry your engine with you.

[Mr. Belvedere]

I was recomended by my local mechanic to Star auto parts machine shop, so I gave them a call. They said it would runn about $1000 to $1300 for machining tear down and reassembly if I supply the parts. A master deluxe kit from Kanter is approx. $1000 so I figure $2500 leaving some room for error on the total bill. Not too bad considering I have had several other estimates for $3500. But it didn't sound like they work on flatheads too often and you know what they say, never take the low bid!

[Young Ed]

Stuff must just be cheaper in the midwest. My engine rebuild was 1523.00. The shop supplied all their own parts. I took the engine out of the car but did no work internally. They did all that. I doubt I have 2500 in mine even after you start counting stuff I did after like water pump new clutch etc

[Dodgeb4ya]

Install all brass soft plugs in the block. Make sure the rear main seal is installed carefully and not to shorten the oil pan cork end gaskets because they seem too long when installed at each end of the pan.Don`t grind the crank more than .030 max on the rods.Make sure the oiler tube for the timing chain is really clean as is the oil pump pickup screen. Have the radiator cleaned and install a good water distrbution tube.

Bob

[Allan Faust]

I was recomended by my local mechanic to Star auto parts machine shop, so I gave them a call. They said it would runn about $1000 to $1300 for machining tear down and reassembly if I supply the parts. A master deluxe kit from Kanter is approx. $1000 so I figure $2500 leaving some room for error on the total bill. Not too bad considering I have had several other estimates for $3500. But it didn't sound like they work on flatheads too often and you know what they say, never take the low bid!

Mine is in the shop as we speak, and it was torn down when I sent it.... estimate was at $800 without the parts. Got quoted about $1000 for the parts from Egge, Roberts, VPW, Kanter and others, and found most of the parts for about $150 US on ebay..... but you got to know where to look...

Allan

[James_Douglas]

Install all brass soft plugs in the block. ...

Bob

Warning, Warning, Will Robenson !

I used nice new Droman brass freeze plugs in my block. The block was acid dipped so it was very very clean. I had nothing but trouble with them blowing out. I switched to steel and the problem went away.

When I meassured the brass vs. the steel I found that the brass was just a very very hair smaller in diameter than the steel. When I purchased my brass plugs, I purchased boxes in each size direct from the distributor.

So, my lesson is that I will not use brass on these engines again. Although I as a general rule like brass plugs.

Best, James

[Dodgeb4ya]

James, You are correct in that there is a .004-.006 thousands size difference-the brass plug being smaller, but as long as they are installed properly they will not come out! Any "qualified engine rebuilder "will install these correctly. Remember the "Ace", "Crown" and "Royal" marine engines use brass plugs. Also these were factory installed at the back of the blocks at the water jacket core hole so they would not leak and be expensive to replace.I use a 6" long by 1-1/2" diameter steel driver that is flat on the end to fully flatten and expand the soft plugs evenly. This is with engines out of the car for rebuilding. In the car engines-- tough to get the lower plugs in, got to use the Mac or Snap-on tools. There is also the "Acorn copper" replacement soft plugs too for emergency hard access in the car use. I keep my cars/trucks a long time and hate core plug failure even with clean coolant changes over the years!

Bob

[James_Douglas]

James, You are correct in that there is a .004-.006 thousands size difference-the brass plug being smaller, but as long as they are installed properly they will not come out! ...

Bob

Bob,

Alas, that is not quite correct. You see the problem is that the old engine blocks can and do have the metal eaten away on the holes in the block. When you add another couple of thousandths of diameter to the core plug hole and then try to use brass, they can fail. Of course this is all dependent on a particular block and its amount of wear.

In my case, to assure a clean and rust free block, it was acid dipped prior to going to the machine shop.

I assure you that my brass plugs were installed correctly as I did them myself on the block on the engine stand and with the correct tools. I did them a second time when they blow out.

The problem is that if the brass plugs are too small and the hole is a little bit larger you will not get enough of an interferance fit to stay put. The steel ones, using the same tools and techniques has been fine.

If I ever do one of these block again, I am going to cut and ream out the freeze plug holes and tap them. Then I will make up some 1/4 inch think bronze screw-in-plugs for them.

Best, James

[Dodgeb4ya]

Sorry you have had so much bad luck with core plugs.

Bob

[47heaven]

The number 1 most important item is that the connecting rods are offset. It is imperative that they be marked and used back in the same cylinder position as they came out of. (Unless of course, this was what was screwed up in the previous rebuild. Front and rear main seals seem to be a problem area, as some of thecars used an impregnated roap seal which can lead to problems if it is replaced you the later style and not done correctly. Centering the front timing cover, and assuring the little oil dribbler in is place under the cover is also important. Then there is the indexing of the oil pump so that the distributor drive lines up correctly. A correctly indexed pump should have the distributor rotor pointing at 7 o'clock for Compression TDC of #1 cylinder.

As you can see in the pic, my guy (whose been in business since 1964) assembled the piston / rod assemblies, and marked them for the proper assembly placement and allignment. If your concerned about the performance of the machine shop, maybe you need to find anouther one. Check your area for a shop that does tractors, forklifts, airport tugs, or other industrial equipment as many of these still run flat head sixes. If you can't find on familiar with the breed, get your agreements in writing. Machine shops are more like veterinarians, than doctors, the need to be familiar with several different anatomies. Horses, cats and dogs all have livers, but they might not be in exactely the same place, same with these old engines.

Man, Greg. That engine sure looks sweet. I hope mine looks that good when it's done.