1939 Plymouth Business Coupe

[1952B3b23]

I managed to pull the front sheet metal off today. I also realized why the previous owner had put a piece of threaded rod through the engine bay tying both the front fenders together. They must have been separating from the cowl and sagging. So his solution was to pull them tight with the threaded rod. I've attached some pics of the bare front end, and some of the rust issues.

 

Pic 1: The front end is naked!!! 

 

Pic 2-4: The cowl area where the fenders bolt to is pretty soft. Its no wonder the fenders where pulling away from the cowl and the previous owner added the threaded rod. 

 

Pic 5-6: The flanges on the fenders that bolt to the running boards are just about totally gone. 

 

Pic 7: I cleaned up this little tag on the firewall with the following numbers stamped into it, P813048BC. Is this the cars serial number?

 

Thanks for lookin',

 

-Chris  

[RobertKB]

Ouch. You have some work ahead of you. My '38 Chrysler has the same style front end and means of attaching it but everything on the car was decent so I was lucky. You will have a great looking car when done but it is going to take lots of TLC and elbow grease.

 

I always liked the look of the original style headlights for '39 but the conversion to seal beams on your car is the nicest I have ever seen. Probably a pretty expensive kit in its day. I personally think they would look even better painted body colour.

 

I did the reverse on my '38 Chrysler. I replaced the seal beam conversion back to the original style lights and headlight bezel. I had a '38 Dodge at the time which had the original set-up so I just switched them over. Dodge is now long sold but is in the background of the first picture.

 

Seal beam conversion

 

 

Back to original

 

Edited November 10, 2014 by RobertKB

[1952B3b23]

Thanks for the reply RobertKB. I really like the style of your headlights on the Chrysler, i actually like that set up better than whats on my '39 Plym. Im not sure if its the fact that the lights are black and my car is gray which throws off the look. I don't like the current color scheme of the car at all so once the metal work is done to fix the problem areas it will be painted all black. That will help the headlights blend into the body more and not be such an eye catcher as they are now. I wonder how much the Arrow conversion cost back in the day?

 

I certainly do have a bit of metal work to do but it shouldn't be all that bad. At least then i know that the most damaging rot is gone. My goal is to have the car road ready by this coming spring. Along with metal work it also needs engine work so i'll have plenty to do this winter.

 

Do you have any more pics of your Chrysler? Its a beautiful car!

 

Thanks,

 

-Chris

[blucarsdn]

All in all I would not say the rustout of the cowl, etc., is not that bad, about typical for a '30 model vehicle.

The VIN tag you have posted a copy of is not correct for a '39 Plym.. I would say that it is an anomoly of the engine number, i.e. P8 and something else, with letters and number.. An example of a correct VIN would be: Detroit..10630001/10879874, Los Angeles.. 3222001/3242203, Evansville.. 20027001/20062199.. Windsor, Ont.. 935826/9368510.. Eng number, left front corner of eng.. P8-1001/P8-411923... The P7's have a different numbering system, however the engine numbers are all P8.

The P7 VIN's have the same numbering, I.e. 106xxxx, 322xxxx, 202xxxx & 935xxxx

The original '39 headlights really blend into the fenders, my car had the Arrow conversions, which I got rid of..

[RobertKB]

I agree I prefer your original lights but the problem with going back to original is finding all the parts. You need a lot more than just the lenses and bezels. As mentioned, I was lucky as I had a '38 Dodge with everything needed to make the change so I just swapped them out for the conversions in the Chrysler. Headlight pods for a '38 Dodge and '38 Chrysler are the same except the Chrysler has the chrome trim on the top. Also needed are original reflectors, bulb holders. retainer clips for the lenses, and adjustment mechanisms. Could be more but I can't think of any others right now.

Edited November 10, 2014 by RobertKB

[1952B3b23]

All in all I would not say the rustout of the cowl, etc., is not that bad, about typical for a '30 model vehicle.

The VIN tag you have posted a copy of is not correct for a '39 Plym.. I would say that it is an anomoly of the engine number, i.e. P8 and something else, with letters and number.. An example of a correct VIN would be: Detroit..10630001/10879874, Los Angeles.. 3222001/3242203, Evansville.. 20027001/20062199.. Windsor, Ont.. 935826/9368510.. Eng number, left front corner of eng.. P8-1001/P8-411923... The P7's have a different numbering system, however the engine numbers are all P8.

The P7 VIN's have the same numbering, I.e. 106xxxx, 322xxxx, 202xxxx & 935xxxx

The original '39 headlights really blend into the fenders, my car had the Arrow conversions, which I got rid of..

 

Yea im not worried about the rust, that'll be a straight forward fix. I'm glad the overall car is very solid, that's what really matters to me.

 

I looked through the '39 Plym service manual and it shows the typical serial number format and that's definitely not it as you said. I wonder what it actually is, hmmmmmm .

 

I think having the headlight painted the same color as the body would help it not stick out as bad as i think it does now. I actually am a big fan of the pre-'39 headlights, i think they look great. I'm not much for the stock square ones, to me they look funny (but thats just me).

 

-Chris

[1952B3b23]

I agree I prefer your original lights but the problem with going back to original is finding all the parts. You need a lot more than just the lenses and bezels. As mentioned, I was lucky as I had a '38 Dodge with everything needed to make the change so I just swapped them out for the conversions in the Chrysler. Headlight pods for a '38 Dodge and '38 Chrysler are the same except the Chrysler has the chrome trim on the top. Also needed are original reflectors, bulb holders. retainer clips for the lenses, and adjustment mechanisms. Could be more but I can't think of any others right now.

 

I'd imagine that trying to find the parts to convert back to original would be a pain. I wonder if theres anyone out there that sells them as a kit? I've never heard of anyone.

 

-Chris

[RobertKB]

You would have to keep an eye on ebay or contact someone like Moore's in South Dakota to see if you can find the complete units. Lenses are not to hard to find but everything else would be more difficult. This stuff does show up occasionally.

[fstfish66]

nice solid car to  start with,,

[1952B3b23]

nice solid car to start with,,

Thank you

[Lloyd]

I'd imagine that trying to find the parts to convert back to original would be a pain. I wonder if theres anyone out there that sells them as a kit? I've never heard of anyone.

 

-Chris

 

I may be able to help out with that. My 39 had nothing but holes in the fenders. Bought a lot of stuff off ebay before I managed to get a set together for both sides. Took about a year to get there.

Turns out I may have enough to do the headlights for 2 cars. Buckets, reflectors, trim & hardware.

Edited November 17, 2014 by Lloyd

[1952B3b23]

I may be able to help out with that. My 39 had nothing but holes in the fenders. Bought a lot of stuff off ebay before I managed to get a set together for both sides. Took about a year to get there.

Turns out I may have enough to do the headlights for 2 cars. Buckets, reflectors, trim & hardware.

 

I don't plan on switching back to the originals as i like the round instead of square headlights. Your collection of parts may be helpful to someone else who reads this thread and wants to convert their car. Thanks for the comment.

 

-Chris

[1952B3b23]

I think i mentioned before that the car had lots of blow by and oil coming out of the oil fill pipe. My plan was to pop the head off and take a look inside, so i started this. I took off the head and dropped the oil pan to look at the bottom end. Well i found quite a bit of sludge in the oil pan, there was at least 1 inch of crap accumulated at the bottom (Pic 1, 2). I then peaked at the bottom end and it also looks pretty dirty in there (Pic 3, 4, 5). I closely examined the cylinder bores and found that a couple of the cylinders have some pit corrosion in the wall (Pic 6). They look deep enough to where the bores would need to be machined to get a nice sealing surface for the rings. 

 

-Chris 

[1952B3b23]

Heres a few more pics of the top side of the engine. Those valves sure do look funny colored to me? This is my first time doing engine work like this so any helpful hints as to what the valve color might be telling me is appreciated.

 

The plan was to try and get the engine back to decent running order without pulling it out of the car. Im thinking it might be past that point judging by what i've seen so far, opinions? So my next idea was to swap in the 218 ci that came out of my '52 Dodge Truck (it was actually from a '53 Plymouth car). The engine ran half way decently a couple years ago when i took it out of the truck. I will need to get it fired up and figure out what kind of health its in before actually putting it in the car.

 

Thanks,

 

-Chris 

[blucarsdn]

The serial number info I listed in my Nov. 10 comments was basically copied from The Standard Catalog of American Cars, 1805-1942.

Chrysler was very good at keeping records, the linage of any Plymouth made since 1928 can be traced through Chrysler Historical, however, it can only be traced using the correct serial number, engine and/or body numbers will not work..

It was not until the late '70's that the majority of the States started to issue titles on vehicles. Alabama is one of the states that did not issue titles, the registration card served as proof of ownership..

Had a real hard time getting the ownership documentation straightened out on a '39 Plymouth convertible coupe that a friend of mine purchased in Alabama and had shipped to CA.. The car had a notorized Bill of Sale from Alabama, however the number used was the P8xxxxx engine number. California would not validate the paper work because the P8 number was not in the serial number range for a '39 Plymouth according to the documents that CA uses.

On the headlight issue.. I have an extra complete set of square headlights for a '39 Plym. I would cauton you that the headlight trim rings have two styles, early, two screws and late, one screw. a second factor to watch out for is that the trim rings are left and right. I found out about the L/R trim rings the hard way, nobody told me about the differences until I had gathered up several pair of trim rings..Bill

[1952B3b23]

Well i began the process of removing the floor in the car so that the motor can be taken out. It was more of a project than i expected, all of the screws had to be cut off because of being rusted so badly. One half is out next the toe boards have to go.

 

-Chris 

[1952B3b23]

I was able to get a little bit of work done this weekend. I removed the toe board, which required cutting the head of almost all the screws off. I then took it over to the bench and heated the areas where the cut off screw was so that they could easily be removed. Then i chased all the threads with my 1/4-20 tap and was able to save each threaded insert. 

 

I also had to do the same heating, screw removal, and thread chasing on the chopped off screws that where left behind in the car. I was able to save all those threaded inserts to. I sure was glad to be done after having to do about 15 of them. At least i wont ever have to fight the floor this bad to remove it. When i re-assemble ill be sure to use 1/4-20 hex head cap screws and plenty of anti-seize on the threads. I wish the previous owner had thought of that.

 

Thanks for looking,

 

-Chris 

[DJ194950]

Nice work Chris!

 

DJ

[1952B3b23]

Nice work Chris!

 

DJ

 

Thanks DJ. Next step is to pull the motor.

 

-Chris

[1952B3b23]

I finally got the motor and trans out of the car. Everything went rather smoothly except for one of the transmission mount bolts on the passenger side of the car wouldn't come out. The angle grinder and cut off wheel made quick work of convincing it to come out. 

 

Next step is to remove the tranny from the engine and work on getting my '53 Plymouth 218 ci running. Hopefully that engine will be alive and well and ready to take the place of the original flathead. 

 

Thanks for looking,

 

-Chris

[1952B3b23]

A little more progress to report... i pulled the transmission, bell housing, clutch, and flywheel off of the 200 ci flathead that was in the car. I found a surprise in the rear of the engine block a HOLE!!! It was packed full of dirt and i spent a little bit scooping out as much crap with a screw driver as possible. The hole is deep enough to shove a 4-5" long flat head screw driver all the way in. So after pulling the tranny and leaving the shop for the night i returned today (a few days later) to discover green liquid dripping out of the hole. This is engine coolant coming out. Anyone ever seen a hole like this in the block? This is a first for me and i had no idea it was there when i bought the car. 

 

Also the teeth on my flywheel look to be kind of chewed up, hopefully the flywheel from my replacement 218 will work. 

 

So i decided i would spend some time today and bring my 53 Plymouth 218 ci over to my shop from my house. I pulled the transmission off this engine and will get ready for a test fire pretty soon. The plan is to check out how healthy this engine is and swap it into the car.  

 

Happy Holidays,

 

-Chris 

[Dave72dt]

That's an expansion plug that's rusted through. Easily replaced and not uncommon in older engines. Replace them all.

Edited December 20, 2014 by Dave72dt

[hkestes41]

On the ring gear, place a cinder block on end then lay the flywheel on top. Use a torch to heat the ring gear and when it expands it should come off easily with a couple of light raps of a mallet.

 

Then wait until the wife is gone shopping and will be gone for a while. Wrap the flyweel in tin foil and put it in the freezer. Then put some more tin foil on the rack of your grill and fire it up with the ring gear inside. Let the flywheel freeze for about 45 min and the ring gear cook for about 20 - 30 min then back to the cinder block.

 

Working quickly, lay the flywheel back on the cinder block, then drop the ring gear back on with the side with good teeth facing the block side of the flywheel. Because the flywheel has shrunken slightly because it was frozen and the ring gear has expanded slightly because it was cooked, the ring gear should simply fall into place. Once the temperatures have normalized the ring gear will be locked in place. 

 

At least that is the way I did mine and the wife never has to know what was in her freezer.

[Niel Hoback]

Gimme $5 and I'll not tell.

[Young Ed]

If you are just flipping the ring gear heat until it comes off grab with pliers quick and put it back on.