35 Plymouth Questions

[ROB-PA]

While continuing my slow disassembly of the car some questions came up and I hope someone here can help.

 

 Around the doors and the seat frame, and I am sure in some areas that I haven't noticed, there is a packing secured in grooves to retain the upholstery. Apparently it was tacked or stapled in at these locations. It appears to be something like hemp wrapped in tape (no idea what it is called). Is there a replacement for this material available or should I work  to preserve it while cleaning (sand & soda blasting)?

 

There is seam sealer around all of the joints where the floor boards meet the frame and the tunnel. I haven't removed all of it yet but so far I don't see any place where the floor pans are secured to the body or the tunnel other that the body mount bolts that I am now removing. If the floor pans are not attached to the body in any way I am wondering how flexible the body is going to be when I lift it off. This became more of a concern when I noticed that the B pillar is apparently only secured at the bottom by 3 of the carriage bolts securing the body to the frame. I'd like to know if I need to weld in some braces before lifting the body??

 

I've attached a couple of pictures below of the floor pans. What I originally thought were solid floor pans ended up having a minor rust issue in front of the battery box. I'm not going to complain as the rest is just some minor surface rust and I have found a partial patch panel for the rusted area at the Plymouth Doctor. Someone in the past had done a really good job of 'repairing' the rust with some type of epoxy and it was all but invisible under the paint and dirt. It loosened up when I was using the impact screwdriver to remove the 12 pan head screws in the 'X' frame.

 

I might have to attach some of the pictures in a follow up post.

[ROB-PA]

Also, as I started looking at removing the dash and I noticed that there is a mystery (to me) control or light on the dash. It is in extreme the lower left. I have attached a picture below. Right now is an empty socket that looks like it has a thread on the ID ; maybe to take one of the old threaded lenses for an indicator light(?).

 

This car came with the optional radio, see picture. I understand that this is fairly rare. Is there any information on this? It has a separate control in the center of the dash and it looks like the actual radio is tucked up under the upper left of the dash in a metal box (with speaker). I'm sure that this is next to impossible to get repaired and probably didn't work all that well. I remember the radio in my 1950 Dodge was a little sporadic. I may put something modern in the 'black box' and try to retain the original controls. Has this been done before?

[desoto1939]

If you are goi8ng to do a frame off restoration and remove the body from the frame then I would add some braking to the body so that the body does not twist.  If you ever saw a ground up resto done at any quality resto shop they always add bracing to the body so that it does not twist.

 

Rich Hartung

Desoto1939@aol.com

[austinsailor]

.

 

This car came with the optional radio, see picture. I understand that this is fairly rare. Is there any information on this? It has a separate control in the center of the dash and it looks like the actual radio is tucked up under the upper left of the dash in a metal box (with speaker). I'm sure that this is next to impossible to get repaired and probably didn't work all that well. I remember the radio in my 1950 Dodge was a little sporadic. I may put something modern in the 'black box' and try to retain the original controls. Has this been done before?

 

I've had several radios restored by:

 

http://www.southtexasantiqueelectronics.com/

 

For around $150 he'll make it work like it did when it was new, and you can go on up adding an input for your ipad/serius radio, etc.  He does good work, and will also repaint it like it was if you want for a little more.  He's been doing this for years, and recently retired and should have more time now. He's just a radio geek that likes doing it. He'll have my Airflow radio when we go to Texas next month.

 

There are a number of other places that do this as well. Some places can even add an fm tuner into your works, not sure if the above guy does that, you would have to ask him.

[ROB-PA]

I think this car deserves a frame off restoration; it is really solid and I would like to prevent any further deterioration. I don't plan on making a show car, just a solid driver. The car was already stripped to paint when I received it so all of the glass is out and all of the interior. The fenders, running boards, grill and hood just have enough bolts to keep them in place. It seemed like a relatively small amount of work to pull the body and do it right the first time. That is until I found out about the 46 body bolts to the frame!

 

I should mention that I also received a second frame with the car. It is in pretty rough shape and it turns out to have been from a 36 instead of a 35 but I believe that the body will bolt right on (I hope). I plan on removing the body from the original frame and securing it on this frame so that it can be mounted on a rotisserie for soda blast and paint. If the floor pan was attached to the body I would not have worried all that much about the swap from frame to frame. I was hoping that I could avoid welded braces so that I would not have to worry bout touching up interior paint. I guess I will be welding in some braces and just being very careful where they go. I will probably weld in the base of the B pillars also. Maybe I should just tack weld the floor to the body for the transition?

[ROB-PA]

Thanks for the information Austinsailor. I'll  check that out.

I'm not sure which way I'm going with this build yet. While I would like to keep everything original I have to be practical. I'm looking now at upgrading the brakes to more modern to eliminate the maintenance headaches. I can do the work now but 5 years from now . . . maybe not. The wife and I plan on taking some trips with this car so I'm trying to eliminate all of the potential problems while I still am able. The radio is still down the road a ways at this point.

[TodFitch]

I don't know of a source for that wadded up twisted paperish stuff in the grooves that the interior panels are nailed to. I kept mine as intact as possible in the groove and then wedged some soft wood into the spots where it was thin, missing or damaged to give some purchase to the panel nails and staples.

 

On the '33 and I suspect also for the '35, the floor boards are part of the body assembly and do not attach to the frame separately. Once all the body bolts are removed the body and floor boards should come off as one assembly. (If you look at photos of the body drop station on the assembly line, it looks like a complete body with interior and floor boards is dropped onto the frame, so it make sense that the boards are mounted to the body only.)

 

I am not sure what you are referring to when you write "It loosened up when I was using the impact screwdriver to remove the 12 pan head screws in the 'X' frame." Maybe somebody screwed floor boards to the frame during a repair.

[ROB-PA]

Todd,

 

The 12 screws that I found in the X frame are definitely factory screws. There are captive nuts secured to the frame that they screw into that were always there. It appears, at least at this point, that the floor pan is just sandwiched between the body and the frame at the frame rails. I do hope that the pan is welded or secured to the body by some means as that would make the whole structure much more rigid. I removed 2 more of the carriage bolts that attach the body to the frame rails today. I had to use a nut splitter as the square wholes for the carriage bolt heads in the frame were wobbled out. Still have 6 more to go. I would love to see some of assembly line photos. Can you point me in that direction? I'll see if I can get you a clear enough picture of the screws that I am referring to. I know that the 1935 advertising really touted the more rigid bodies due to the increased mounting points.

 

Rob

[ROB-PA]

Todd,

 

I looked closer at the 'trim anchors' (for lack of a better term) in the 35 and found that there were a couple of small sections of mine that had been replaced with some kind if soft wood also. I plan on taping over them prior to media blasting.

 

I took a couple of pictures of the floor pan where it is secured to the X frame. I also went and looked at the 36 frame and confirmed that it is the same. There are square 5/6" nuts welded to the frame rails. In the pictures you can see that there is a trough stamped in the pan where these screws attach the floor pan to the X frame. I plan on replacing all of the carriage bolts and pan head screws with button head allen screws.

[TodFitch]

Learned something new about the '35. I know that the '33 has no body fasteners to the X member. I strongly suspect the '34 does not either. In '36 or '37 they went to the perimeter rubber isolated body mounts. I guess they were still experimenting every year on how to mount the body to the frame.

[ROB-PA]

I'm learning new every day, no wait, make that every hour that I work on it. This is all new to me. In my past life I built and maintained race cars as a hobby; everything was relatively new and clean.

When I managed to get all of the pan head screws out of the X frame I thought that I had licked the biggest problem. Boy was I wrong! I have been trying to get out the carriage bolts now with limited success. About half of them are tucked into corners of the frame as well as corners of the door posts. Of course those are the ones that the squares have rounded out. They are too close to the frame for the nut splitter and I can't get at the heads with anything. I'm hesitant to cut them with the torch so I'll probably end up drilling them out. I think someone was there before me and managed to destroy all of the seats for the carriage bolts trying to remove them. This will not be pleasant.

Today I found that one of the rear spring shackles was broken. I went to the 36 frame and found that there is one I may be able to use if it comes out cleanly. I also just found them at A. Bernbaum if it doesn't.

[DJ194950]

 ROB,

 

Might try the cutting torch by putting a piece of scrap steel bent to cover the back side area behind the bolt being cut.  Turn down the oxy. pressure on the torch to about 10-15 psi so that the cutting action is very limited and not have the blow threw that probably happen if preesure is left to the more normal 30 psi of oxy..

 

Just a thought, can't see the bolts and where they are, up to you.

Drilling the head off carriage bolts is a real pain as the square part is always left under the head. Drill all the way through the bolt and cold chisel the nut off.??

 

Others must have faced this at some point?

 

DJ

[ROB-PA]

Yes, I have had to drill out carriage bolts before. That's why I'm not too happy about it and I am procrastinating. I may try the torch yet. Right now I have 5 of these to remove and the thought of having to drill all of those is painful. When you drill them you need to go all the way through the square and then collapse it inward so the bolt can be removed.

As an aside, does any one know the difference between the car clutch and the truck clutch? I got a clutch with the 46 truck drive train that is supposed to be relatively new and I was wondering if I could use it. Bernbaum list them as different assemblies.

[DJ194950]

Whats up about a flywheel. Got one the fits the crank and inside the bell housing.

Called a friend that got the trans, clutch, and pressure plate from the motor that had the 37" ? bell housing you got from me.

The one (his now) that was on the motor and trans setup I bought had a 10" diameter clutch & pressure plate (very odd style-old??).

 

What diameter is the truck setup? Some of the slightly newer 50's? had 11" and pressure plate fingers have a larger spread between the fingers for a larger throwout bearing to work with the larger input shaft of many trucks. 47 trucks used ?? dia. pressure plate and discs.

 

Measure the OD of the 37 input shaft and compare to the OD of the truck input shaft or the ID if the truck throwout bearing -whichever you have?

 

Some truck guys are on this forum and i'm sure they can help fill some blanks.

 

This forum is super in that respect!

 

Some flywheels are drilled to match both.

 

All can be worked out, The fun of mix/match!

 

Enjoy the journey!

 

DJ

[Dave72dt]

Weld some key stock or some heavy strap metal to the heads of the carriage bolts that's long enough to get a vise grip, or adjustable wrench or even long enough it will butt up against the car body itself and go back after the nuts. They'll either break off or come loose. I've even welded the heads to the surrounding metal, taken the nuts off and then cut the bolt loose. Don't worry about ruining the bolt. It needs to be replaced anyway.

[ROB-PA]

I have the complete drive line from the truck, that includes the flywheel, starter, clutch and transmission. I haven't removed the engine yet, only one bay to work in right now. I'm just trying to get everything lined up. Once I remove the 35 body I plan on setting up the whole drive train in the 35 frame before I strip the frame and blast and paint it. If the flywheel is not a different diameter and fits in the 37 bell housing I may be able to make it work. I believe that the trucks must have a different sleeve on the release bearing since the clutch linkage is way different. I'm not sure what else may be different yet.

I have considered welding a brace or nut on the carriage bolt head and I may give it a try. My welding skills are notoriously bad and I may cause more damage than I would with a torch!

[TodFitch]

Weld some key stock or some heavy strap metal to the heads of the carriage bolts that's long enough to get a vise grip, or adjustable wrench or even long enough it will butt up against the car body itself and go back after the nuts. They'll either break off or come loose. I've even welded the heads to the surrounding metal, taken the nuts off and then cut the bolt loose. Don't worry about ruining the bolt. It needs to be replaced anyway.

 

On the '33 there is a wood piece, like a sill board at the bottom of a wall in the house, between the frame and the body.

 

Is this true on the '35? If so, I'd be careful of any welding or cutting torch. Definitely have a fire extinguisher on hand. . .

[ROB-PA]

The only wood the factory installed in the car are the stringers for the canvas roof and a small piece inset on either side of the windshield frame to secure trim. The body is contoured to fit directly on the frame. There are body bolts that run down from the body into the top of the frame and bolts that run horizontally through the body through the side of the frame. There are rubber pads about 1/8" thick between the body and the frame, at least on the vertical bolts, not sure about the ones through the side of the frame. From what I have been able to dig out of the info on the net, 35 and 36 are the only years like this. It was a big part of their advertising campaign in 1935 (No Wood!). The 34 was the last Plymouth to have wood in the frame/body mount; in 37 they went to the more conventional ear type frame mounts on the outside of the frame with rubber buffer body mounts.

I won't get a chance to work on this for a couple of days; off to WV to work on the new house.

DJ, were you saying that the flywheel and clutch may be available? The bell housing appears to be correct; has all of the right mounting holes at least.

[greg g]

The "tacking strip" can be found through trimmers and upholsters supply places. The modern stuff is a plastic compound material. It doesn't work as well as the old stuff as it relies a

bit on the tack expanding the material to hold it into the channel.

[DJ194950]

DJ, were you saying that the flywheel and clutch may be available? The bell housing appears to be correct; has all of the right mounting holes at least? ROB-PA's  question.

 

Rob I can try calling my friend that I gave the parts to but he is notorious for not answering his cell phone and his message box is always full as he doesn't know how to clear it out and doesn't want to. I'll keep after him though!

I believe however that I kept the flywheel that was in the motor/bell/flywheel/clutch setup that I bought and just took it to my storage at my friends ranch. The motor in that setup was a later engine but I never looked up what year! I can look one of these days as it's also in storage.

 

His 37 Ply. has the same bell housing as the one you just got and is mated to a newer 218 car engine. I can ask him what flywheel he used and what type clutch and pressure plate. I know he does not like the style clutch I gave him and that his is not that style.

 

Time to get that new house done so you can get on the important stuff- the 35!! 

 

DJ


 

Edited October 16, 2014 by DJ194950

[ROB-PA]

Thanks DJ, I appreciate the effort. As I stated before I am not in a big hurry but I am trying to get everything lined up so that things go smoothly when I do get the opportunity to concentrate on the 35 for a couple of weeks, hopefully this winter. It would be a bummer if I end up getting time to work on the car only to find that I am at a standstill for lack of correct parts. Of course, there is always something to do on the car!

I looked at the Chrysler 'parts' engine that came with the truck chassis and drive train. It has the same type of bell housing as the truck, not sure what this came out of, neither was the PO. Someone had started to disassemble it. The bell housing is unbolted but is jammed up on it somehow. Evidently they could not figure out how to get it off and gave up. I peaked inside and the only thing that I noticed is that the spline on the clutch disc is much bigger that the input shaft on the 35 tranny. I was hoping that I could use the truck clutch assembly and save myself 2 or 3 hundred bucks (high prices at Bernbaums). I may have to start totaling up the costs and see if might be more cost effective to go late model conversion.

[TodFitch]

. . . I was hoping that I could use the truck clutch assembly and save myself 2 or 3 hundred bucks (high prices at Bernbaums). . . .

It has been a while, but I don't recall ever paying that much to have my disk and pressure plate rebuilt by the local brake and friction company.

 

Don always posts about a place in Tennessee that does good work for a reasonable price. I don't know how shipping would factor into that.

 

Anyway, it only costs a couple of phone calls to price out the rebuild option from either a place near you or one recommended by other forum members.

[Don Coatney]

[ROB-PA]

Thanks for the info guys.

Don, does the place in Tennessee sell clutch assemblies or just rebuild them? The problem is that I don't think I have the right clutch to rebuild. I believe that the truck clutch may be completely different but I am still not sure. I won't really know what is in there until I get the chance to disassemble the truck drive train. While I have determined that the engine from the truck is actually from a 1954 Plymouth I would suspect that the transmission and clutch may be the from the truck. I believe that the splines on the disc are different and possibly the diameter of the clutch assembly. I know that the sleeve for the release bearing is different. If the flywheel from the truck will fit in the bell housing I may be able to run the truck clutch and transmission but I would then have to modify the drive shaft and the floor pan and maybe find some kind of hybrid sleeve for the release bearing.

The ideal thing would be to locate a clutch disc, pressure plate and sleeve correct for the car; that is assuming that the flywheel is suitable.

I'll be able to get back to this in a couple of days. Have to go work on the new house for a while.

[Don Coatney]

Thanks for the info guys.

Don, does the place in Tennessee sell clutch assemblies or just rebuild them?

Call them.