Advice needed: IND 265 or a T 251 for a '48 B-1, Fluid drive, or T5!?

[dorkpunch]

Looking for a little advice.  Still trying to get Great Grandpa's old truck back on the road.  I have come accross a great deal on a supposedly running Industrial 265 engine and rolling chassis.  Going to pick it up next week.  P.O. said they started it, drove it a little just to move it around, then pulled the cab off for a different project.  Been sitting for about a year.  Frame is a '47 1.5 ton. 

 

ALSO have a line on a 251- professionally rebuilt about 10 years ago, but had extremely low time put on it before it was pulled for a modern engine swap.  Work was done by a reputable business, garunteed it as running.  Little more expensive but not out of line.

 

The truck I need an engine for is a Canadian built '48 Dodge B-1.  I know I need the 25" long engine, which both of these are.  The truck has a "Fluid Drive" transmission, which apparently is on the rare side because everyone confuses it for the later version.  Has the looonng bell housing, a regula clutch, then a torque converter, then the standard 4 speed transmission.

 

I dont want to do ANY cutting if at all possible- eventually it may get a full resto back to bone stock.  In the meantime, I want a good daily driver truck. 

This leads to my questions:

 

1.  I think originally the truck had the 251.  Any reason NOT to use the 265?  Parts availablity?  Performance parts available for either?

 

2.  Transmission- 3 options.  Use the 265 and the trans that is on it now, plug it in, and run it- OR- use the 265 or the 251, hope the Fluid Drive trans is good, and bolt them up, making a more original truck- OR- use either engine, do a T5 conversion and have better gearing and maybe better fuel mileage.

 

What should I do!?

[Don Coatney]

First off fluid drive is not a transmission nor a torque converter. Fluid drive is just a hydraulic coupling with no torque multiplication. Many transmissions can be connected to a fluid drive coupling.

 

The 265 and 251 engines are both the same physical size and are direct bolt in replacements. However the 265 will produce more torque and more HP so in my opinion it is the preferred engine. Performance parts are available for both engines. I have coupled a T-5 behind my 251 engine and I am very satisfied with the results.

 

What you do is entirely up to you. Nobody else can make that decision.

[Merle Coggins]

If it were me, I would probably go with the "known good, guaranteed", 251 over the "it should run good" 265. Either one should connect up to your FD and 4 speed with no problems. ,

 

By the way... I have a FD with 4 speed on my B2C, with the little 218 engine, and I've been known to cruise the big roads at upwards of 75 MPH with my 3.73 gears in the rear diff. No need to fancy OD trans swaps. Just find a 3.73 or 3.54 diff from a early 50's Chrysler, DeSoto, Dodge, or Plymouth car. It'll likely be a bolt in upgrade.

 

Merle

[NiftyFifty]

I thought the fluid drive engines were different? Something to do with the crank being longer or different where the pilot bearing is? If so would just any engine work, or only one from a fluid drive? I would always vote T5, but it does not allow you to go back to stock without finding a new bell housing and floor panels, but they work great with these engines

[dorkpunch]

Thanks for the insights.  Current plan is to attemp dropping the 265 and attached trans in.  I will probably have to come up with a custom driveline, but this would be the least amount of work to make it at least move.  If its a no go, I think I can trade it off for the 251.

 

Here's the 265:

 

 

Looks like it has a custom hydraulic pump, must have had a dump bed?

 

 

Hoping it'll fit...

 

 

This is what it'll be going in.

 

 

[dorkpunch]

Looking back at the pics... It would appear that the trans behind that 265 has 2 extra levers-  what would they be for?  I could see one as a PTO, the other maybe a split rear end?

[NiftyFifty]

That trans might not be one you want in a "cruiser",it will be set up for bull low pulling and heavy loads, it won't like the highway no matter what gears you swap in. If you have to go to the trouble of a new drive shaft you may want to look at the T5 or a 4 speed from a 1/2 ton.

[pflaming]

Use determines choice. three speed and 3;53 or 3:73 and you can cruise on the interstate. I put in a 3:73 and would prefer the 3:53 just to have the engine quieter at crusel

Over drive: if you know how to drive one, put in front of a 3:53 and you can actually have lower 2nd / upper 2nd ; lower 3rd / upper third. I'm thinking a class trailer and that would give me good gearing headed up to Yosemite Park.

Hy-drive , fluid drive, etc., were build to help the ladies and now old men with weak left knees,

T-15, lots if work and little benefit over an OD, though would be fun to drive .

I'm keeping my three speed in "The Phoenix" with a 3:53 rear end swap and will put an over drive in my suburban with the 3:73 that I will take out of the B3B.

Those choices are for what I want to do with the vehicles.

[Merle Coggins]

That trans might not be one you want in a "cruiser",it will be set up for bull low pulling and heavy loads, it won't like the highway no matter what gears you swap in. If you have to go to the trouble of a new drive shaft you may want to look at the T5 or a 4 speed from a 1/2 ton.

 

Either way top gear will be 1:1. But this is likely a spur gear, non-synchronized, transmission. But then again, the one in your B-1-D probably is too. I'd still keep the FD and your original trans. As I understand it, all 25" engines have the 8 hole crank flange to accept the FD unit.

 

And my comment about finding 3.73 gears from a car would be rather hard now that I realize that you have a 1 ton truck. You may be able to find a diff from a larger, long wheel base sedan/limo, Chrysler or Desoto, but they are rare.

 

Merle

[NiftyFifty]

With that being a Canadian truck, most likely 4:10's so its going to scream at highway speed no matter the trans, now is the time to really figure out what you want from the truck..looker or driver. I had my original 4 speed in front of a Jeep 3:53 rear diff and it still screamed at about 3000-3200 on hwy, with the T5 I'm more like 2200 at 70mph. You would have to cut your floor up anyway to use that split trans on the 265

[MBF]

That extra lever with the ball on top is likely the manual shift for the two speed rear.  (if it is there will be a rod running back to the rear and).  My 1 ton has a syncrho 3 speed, and my 2.5 ton has a 5 speed w vacuum shifted 2 spd rear.  The trans in the 2.5 ton, is way more than you'll ever need for the 1 ton pickup, the bottom two gears will rarely be used or needed.  I think you're going to be hard pressed to find a rear center section that provides the gear ratio that you want to run highway speeds.  I think I'd go w the T-5 in your application, but remember you'll then be beyone what your truck's steering and brakes were designed for.   Mike

[NiftyFifty]

That extra lever with the ball on top is likely the manual shift for the two speed rear.  (if it is there will be a rod running back to the rear and).  My 1 ton has a syncrho 3 speed, and my 2.5 ton has a 5 speed w vacuum shifted 2 spd rear.  The trans in the 2.5 ton, is way more than you'll ever need for the 1 ton pickup, the bottom two gears will rarely be used or needed.  I think you're going to be hard pressed to find a rear center section that provides the gear ratio that you want to run highway speeds.  I think I'd go w the T-5 in your application, but remember you'll then be beyone what your truck's steering and brakes were designed for.   Mike

You mean they don't like 80mph? I have however upgraded brakes and tires, but all stock steering and it handles decent at highway speeds. You can't upgrade the stock 1 ton axle unfortunately, I had to source a 1/2 ton to do the disc conversion

[dorkpunch]

Its going to be a driver for sure.  May one day restore it but I just need it to be mobile for now.  Can't do much with the interior- I want to keep the shift pattern my Dad scratched into the dash when he was 8, and the tractor filter #'s written on the headliner in pencil.  The farm fresh patina is kinda nice too.  Tired of it sitting in the shed.  It will likely only see the rural highways around here-  55 mph.  I'm not going to lie though, it would be pretty cool to run it up the freeway at 80 mph every now and then, but I REALLY don't see that ever happening.

 

Guess I'll have to see what I have when I go pick it up.  Most likely will get it running before I do anything, and test the trans etc while its all in the frame still.  Will make a decision after I know more about it.

[4852dodge]

My suggestion is to use the larger engine with the fluid drive that is in the truck. If you can find a set of gears from the larger car use them but if not the 4:10's work.  When you buy new tires go to 7:50X16 6ply.  The larger circumfrence will give you a couple more mph.  Any more and you will be going faster than the rest of the truck is designed for.   My B-1-D has served me well for many years and miles, I just don't use Interstates.  If your transmission is a 4 speed version most if not all the parts you may need to rebuild can be gotten from Vintage Power Wagons.  

[NiftyFifty]

I don't believe you can fit the car centre section in the one ton diff, so that option is off the table unless he replaced the whole thing and that ruins the wheel tire combo

[55 Fargo]

I thought the fluid drive engines were different? Something to do with the crank being longer or different where the pilot bearing is? If so would just any engine work, or only one from a fluid drive? I would always vote T5, but it does not allow you to go back to stock without finding a new bell housing and floor panels, but they work great with these engines

Nope, any of our "canuck" 25 inch engines will bolt up to a fluid coupler..............

[Dodgeb4ya]

I've had my 1952 1 ton for nearly 40 years. I still drive it with  the stock 4.3 rear end and 4 speed trans. I have a 265 sodium valve engine I put in it back in the early 70's. Use to drive it all the time on the freeways at 55 MPH.

I always had 7.50 X 16's on it. Thats a must.

It still works fine for me all though I don't use it as a daily driver like I used too.

 

Those New Process 4 speeds are one tough transmission and generally never need a rebuild-especially the early spur gear non syncro type.

If condensation gets into one long enough all bets are off!

Bob

[Jeff Balazs]

Couldn't you find a Dana 44 with the correct lug pattern? If so you might get one with a 3.55 or even a 3.23 ratio. Much simpler than swapping in a different tranny to the fluid drive bell housing. I would think that the larger engine mated to a fluid drive 4 speed would do pretty much all you would ever want it to. I sure like my FD.

Just an idea.

 

Jeff

[HanksB3B]

Wasn't there something mentioned a while back, where someone mentioned that for some reason the industrial engines were not good candidates for installation in our trucks??

 

I don't know, and am not sure.

 

Hank 

[NiftyFifty]

Maybe not a used one, but no issues with a rebuild...that's where my 251 came from, as it was in a Massey combine. The issue with used might be that they spend many many hours at constant high rpm or potentially a lot of lugging in agricultural or industrial vehicle use

[dorkpunch]

Lots of the industrial engines did not have any kind of timing advance, they were designed to run at one steady rpm.  Means the midrange suffers, but where this one is coming out of a truck I'm hoping that has been fixed already...

[HanksB3B]

Oh cool. Hope so too.

Hank

[dorkpunch]

Hey, how about an update...  Been tinkering and am about to start a new thread for the "build".  Pulled the 265 off the frame.  Turns out the frame has a "TWIN STICK" setup, or dual transmissions, PLUS a split rear end.  So that's what, 4x4x2 gears?!  If anyone would be interested in that system or parts off of the frame let me know.

 

I did get the 265 running and it seems to run pretty good.  Got a gasket set on the way, going to clean it up and install those, then work on getting the fluid drive bell housing on it and back in the truck.

[Radarsonwheels]

I had 3 on the tree manual with stock 4.10 rear and t5 with 4.10 then 3.21. All of them were super fun. The T5 I should have kept the 4.10- it took off and pulled fine but I almost never needed 5th gear. This is all with a 230. 

 

Your setup sounds wild almost like a big rig!

[Dozerman51]

Do you know what third member ratio you have in your 1Ton? Never know,  it could have the rare 3.91 ratio. I like the 1 ton you have there. Are all your wheels the split ring type? My eyes may be deceiving me, but it looks like your left front wheel is a 1 piece wheel with no split ring.  Maybe I’m seeing things. If you have the standard 4.30 ratio third member in your truck, the 265 would be spinning at 2445 rpm’s at 55 mph in 4th gear. That’s about 67.75% of the engines 3600 rated rpm’s.