New guy with 1950 DeSoto - starting issue

[50desotocoupe]

I have a question.  Weren't you driving the car previously?  If so, then I am not sure it would be a compression issue.  Wouldn't it make sense if it was running fine at some point before the compression was ok? 

[Dave72dt]

Something that can happen when a engine is freed up  and then starts and seems to run fine.  Often there is surface rust in the cylinders and you have enough compression to run fine....until the rust is worn away and the rings are still stuck to the pistons or worn out to start with.  You end up with an engine with low  compression that becomes difficult to start.

[Wilf DeSoto]

Did you read posting #45 to this thread?

Yes I read that and got it, the only thing missing was how to apply pressure (safely), therefore my question I have a compressor and I have an air gun for it, so I can use that safely I now understand.

I have driven this car the last three years for about 6000 miles, it did gradually have more difficulty to start when hot over the last few years. I first though it was due to vapor lock. When the car was hot and I was at a petrol station it wouldn't fire up. Also when I was in a traffic jam it would stall and never fire up. I had to wait for about 15 minutes before it would run again.

On the first page, post #9, one can hear how the car ran last year. Maybe that helps telling the tale of what is really wrong..? It did have this rumbling sound as one can hear in the movie.

Edited May 25, 2014 by Wilf DeSoto

[Wilf DeSoto]

RIch, all that info I got (it's in the shop manual) and I'm 100% sure I removed and reinstalled everything in the same order as I photographed and marked everything, from the firing order on the cap to the spark plug wires, the engine head, the distributor position, the position of the distributor plate on itself etc. etc.

The flat spot on the balancer is off by about 70 degrees or so (maybe more, maybe less) so that probably has been removed at some point. When putting it back together the previous owner down the line did  paint the TDC on the balancer again (more or less) and I've checked the location of that paint spot from the arrow before and after removal and installation. Everything remained the same. I also quadruplechecked the timing. The engine had not been moved after removal of the distributor and I removed it with #1 TDC and placed it back exactly the same; #1 at about 7 o clock, points open. I also did a compression test (manually turned the engine, watch for closing intake valve, put thumb over #1 spark plug gap, turned until no more pressure, opened the distributor cap, saw rotor on 7 o clock and gap open. Before and after the ignition update I put the spark plugs loosely on the engine, thus with some extra resistance. Nevertheless in both cases there was spark. Before the new ignition stuff the spark was blue and after changing everything the spark was fatter and more towards a white color. I cannot imagine anything being wrong on this point with the fuel and ignition so it must be the compression.

[knuckleharley]

I have driven this car the last three years for about 6000 miles, it did gradually have more difficulty to start when hot over the last few years. I first though it was due to vapor lock. When the car was hot and I was at a petrol station it wouldn't fire up. Also when I was in a traffic jam it would stall and never fire up. I had to wait for about 15 minutes before it would run again.

 

I'm not saying this is what your problem is,but both times that I have had that problem,it was a cracked coil. It would fire while cold,but once it got hot from firing and engine heat,it would short out. Once it cooled down some,it would shoot sparks again.

 

I am sure there is a way to test the coil for shorts while hot,but I don't know what it is. I just swapped coils and it fixed my problem both times.

[Jeff Balazs]

Wilf;

The compression readings you are getting do seem very low. But not so low as to necessarily keep this engine from starting.

I suggest that if you truly are getting spark at the right time......and fuel..... that it should start. Try spraying some starting fluid (Ether) down the throat of the carb and then turn it over. If you get no indication that it is trying to start with ether in it then I put it to you that either the timing is set wrong or you have some other ignition problem.

 

Years ago I owned a boat that had severe cold starting issues. It didn't matter what I did.....fresh plugs..... rebuilt carbs.. new ignition module... etc...etc.....It just wouldn't start when cold without a shot of ether. But when I gave it a quick shot of ether it would start right up. And then it ran just fine. No problem at all starting without ether once it was even slightly warm. I never did isolate the problem....but it ran fine that way for many years. I just had to make sure I always had a can of starting fluid on hand.

 

Jeff

[James_Douglas]

Hi,

 

You go to a shop and buy an air chuck (fitting).  Once you have gotten all the porcelain out of a sparkplug you can take a Tap and make threads in it and screw the air chuck into it.  Alternatively, you can stick the threaded end of the air chuck into the hollowed out sparkplug and have someone with a gas welder braze it onto the sparkplug.

 

Then you screw it into the cylinder and connect your air hose to it.

 

************************

 

Before I rebuild by Desoto 10 years ago it ran just fine.  It however did not have much power.  The compression was in the 60 pound range HOT. 

 

************************

 

You REALLY need to go here:

http://www.imperialclub.com/Repair/Lit/Master/index.htm

 

And read booklet numbers 1, 2, 10,12 and 36. 

 

***********************

 

Good luck,

 

James

[Wilf DeSoto]

Thanks, I read the booklets. I will check the TDC of cylinder #6 too.

In the meantime I've been trying to remove the inner fender to get to the valve but cannot get it out. How do I go about? All screws are out.

I had to remove a lot of rust inhibitor (tarry stuff) but still the panel is very snugly fit on the front end.

[greg g]

I would not mess with the valves until you get to the point where the engine actually starts.  Loose is better than tight, a little tappet noise is a lot better than burned valves from having them not seat all the way.

 

Stop and go back to the beginning. You mentioned a flooding problem, did you ever check and assure your float level is correct after you refurbed the carb?  Is the needle and seat at the carb inlet sealing properly?  Even with the float correct if this valve doesn't close properly it will cause flooding.

 

I still believe you have the spark plug wires off on the cap in relation to the rotor or the direction in which the rotor travels. If you have fuel and spark at the plugs, the only thing preventing a start is the spark is not going to the correct cylinder at the correct time.  Even with 50 psi compression the engine should start and run.  It might not move the car with any elan' but it should still operate.  

 

Oh and pull your dipstick, and smell the oil, if it smells heavily of fuel drain it and replace it as gas does not make a good lubricant and vapors in the oil pan could flash if you get the engine to start.  

 

Charge your battery,

clean you plugs

assure that your firing order is correct and proper, at both the plugs and the distributor

assure that the coil wire is firmly seated at both ends

Make sure the dist cap is properly positioned and properly attached to the distributor body.

assure that you carb is not overflowing, by addressing the float level and the needle and seat.

 

Then try to start the engine.  

 

If it starts let it run to operating temp, then do another compression test.  

Edited June 18, 2014 by greg g

[martybose]

Thanks, I read the booklets. I will check the TDC of cylinder #6 too.

In the meantime I've been trying to remove the inner fender to get to the valve but cannot get it out. How do I go about? All screws are out.

I had to remove a lot of rust inhibitor (tarry stuff) but still the panel is very snugly fit on the front end.

There are two bolts, one above the other, at the very front edge of the inner fender panel.  The bolts are larger than all of the other ones, and bolt into the frame extension.

 

Marty

[Wilf DeSoto]

Greg G: The flooding problem went away after the refurbish and after stopping with trying to start it pumping the gas. 

I am 100% sure the wires and rotor are correct since I am the only one with a key to my garage and I numbered every single cable and I put paint on every bolt and nut before ever removing anything. I removed the dizzy when pointing to #1 (7 o clock, points open) and put it back together the exact same way (7 o clock, points open). I have checked the cables multiple times. Nothing has changed since the last time I drove the car.

 

I have already put new oil in it (drained the old of course, with the front at an angle so the oil pan drained completely). It does not even remotely tries to fire when spraying flammable liquids in the orifice (with everything WOT, no flooding in the intake).

 

@ Marty: Those are out as well of course. Everything is loose but I don't know how to get the darn thing out since it wants to go down at the wheel well side (passenger side) and the front side wants to stay put. The front side will not lower any further because there's a brake line in the way. 

[Jeff Balazs]

Wilf;

If it won't fire or at least give a cough or two when spraying gas or ether down the carb and cranking it over......then it stands to reason you are either not getting spark or that spark is occurring at the completely wrong time. I have seen ether start engines that the timing was way off on. They didn't run good but it always got a reaction if a spark was present. I think you need to concentrate on the ignition system. Could be something as simple as a loose wire somewhere. Maybe even a intermittent short in the ignition switch itself?

 

Hope this helps.....Jeff

[Don Coatney]

I agree with Jeff.

 

Three things are needed to start an engine. Compression, air/fuel mixture, and spark delivered at the correct time.

 

Your compression readings are low so lets put that on the back burner for now.

 

You say you are getting fuel so lets put that on the back burner for now.

 

I believe you stated you have you inspected or adjusted the points? If you have this can and will effect the timing. If you have not static timed the engine within a few degrees the engine will not start. Have you tried to start the engine with both of the distributor lock down bolts finger tight so you can easily spin the distributor both ways while making a startup attempt? I just went through this procedure on my engine and it took a few attempts before it fired.

[Wilf DeSoto]

No, I didn't try that. I have put the ignition on the same setting as I removed it and I have advanced and retarded it. To no avail. I will ask someone to start while I turn the ignition.

[Don Coatney]

Rig up a under hood starting switch as pictured and use an alligator clip hot wire so you can do it yourself.

 

[_shel_ny]

Do this just to humor me.  

 

Loosen the distributor.

 

Raise it slightly.

 

Turn the rotor 180 degrees.

 

Lower the distributor.

 

Snug it up.

 

Try to start.

[martybose]

(snip)

 

@ Marty: Those are out as well of course. Everything is loose but I don't know how to get the darn thing out since it wants to go down at the wheel well side (passenger side) and the front side wants to stay put. The front side will not lower any further because there's a brake line in the way. 

On my car I had to bend the rear portion (adjacent to the outer fender skin) of the removable section forward so there was enough room to slide the removable section straight back to get the front edge free so that it could be removed.

 

Marty

[Wilf DeSoto]

For you it's humor, for me it's inexplicable.

See, I drove this car for three years now. Last year it did fail more and more when driving in traffic (it would sputter more and more until it would stop completely, I'd had to wait 15 minutes before it would start again). This first happened in severe traffic jams, then also sometimes at traffic lights and one of the last times I drove the car it happened while driving in a corner. All those times it did eventually start after 15 minutes waiting for it to cool off.

The car also was really hard to start cold after a long winter break but it did eventually start, with a blue cloud. Now nothing. Not one misfire. I tried starting and starting until the entire intake was flooded. I cleaned it out and started again. Nothing. Then I cleaned the carb and changed the spark plugs. Nothing. I doesn't flood anymore but still nothing. In that time I didn't change ANYTHING on the ignition. As the spark plugs are captured inside a metal casing which the coil is screwed on it was impossible to switch the plug wires. I did number them on both sides though.

After all that and more it just didn't want to fire. Then I proceeded to mark every screw, nut, bolt on the ignition, had the timing on the first cylinder etc. etc. and hen changed the ignition stuff out, then put it back together. That's why for me it's just unimaginable the timing is the culprit as it was the last thing I changed and I marked everything as it was and put it back together as it was. I checked it a quadruple of times, with the work shop manual and all of the paint. The ignition cap has an orientation slit and before putting it on I also numbered that one, just in case. After removing the distributor I locked the rotor in place. It's not 180 degrees off, I put it back together on the same place and it fit immediately and it turns perfectly. The points were open when I removed it and they were open when I put it back together, both at 7 o clock, cylinder 1.

Of course I will check it again when I have the opportunity (car is a few miles from here) but it's just so illogical to me. The oil pump was not removed so the timing should be good. Unless it is the oil pump that has problems and shifted somehow.

 

Do this just to humor me.

[50desotocoupe]

Question for you.  Did you by chance check the coil and the condensor?  I don't recall in the string of responses that was looked at (but I am wrong lots of times).

 

We are all pulling for you.....very frustrating I know.....  It must be something that we will kick ourselves in the ass after it is purring like a kitten and say "geez, why didn't we think of that"....

 

Matt

[Wilf DeSoto]

I did not check the condensor as such, I just replaced it with the one from Andy Bernbaum. I did check the coil (measured resistance and compared it with known standard values online and with another 6V coil I got from somebody else from a working car as a backup - that one has significantly worse resistance, 3kOhm vs mine with about 6kOhm, so I didn't change it). I also checked everything by sparking with the spark plugs on the engine AND with spark plugs laying on the engine & seeing them spark.

[Jeff Balazs]

Wilf;

Shel-ny is not poking fun at you. What he is saying is to make him happy and try rotating the distributor by 180 degrees. He has a hunch that this is the problem. And it is certainly possible. If you have compression and fuel then either the spark is breaking down or not happening when it needs to.

 

Jeff

[_shel_ny]

For you it's humor, for me it's inexplicable.

 

Not humor me in the sense that it is funny, but in the sense that it is a possibility and will remover that possibility.

 

It seems that there is more than one problem. Part of which is solved -  - -the flooding.

 

My thought in moving the rotor is the possibility that it is 180 out.

 

You did have the distributor out.

 

It is possible for the tang on the distributor to not go in the slot of the oil pump when reinstalled.

 

When you attempted to start it the tang could ride on the pump for 1/2 turn, and then drop into place .

 

 

EDIT: I probably should had put my detailed logic in my earlier post.

          Possibly should have said indulge me, rather than humor me, to avoid confusion in my intent

Edited June 19, 2014 by shel_ny

[Wilf DeSoto]

Don't worry, I didn't take offense, I understand you're trying to help. 

[bbbbbb99]

STOP. Don't mess with your distributor just yet. You may just end up fiddling with so many things that you'll create a bigger mess.

 

From what I am reading it seems like an electrical issue to the coil or it is the coil. Get a volt meter or one of those lights with a pointy probe (forget the name). start at the battery and check for power as you go through the ignition circuit (thru switch etc.) I'll lay you dollars to doughnuts it's either a loose, broken or corroded wire or a cracked or fried coil. Remember wires can look fine and be corroded inside of the insulation. Make up some jumpers too. If a wire is corroded and creating too much resistance, use the jumper wire to verify this. Jumper from the connection point to connection point and then recheck for voltage down stream. Voltmeter is the preferred tool by far.

Edited June 19, 2014 by bbbbbb99

[greg g]

That used to be a good bet but it seems most doughnuts are 2 bucks these days..................