Harmonic Damper & Crank Issues

[Ulu]

Some years ago I bought a 230 Dodge engine to replace the ailing 218 in my '47 Plymouth. 

 

As it turns out, the 218 and 230 appear to be nearly the same vintage (1953 & 1954 respectively.)

 

Anyhow I was sure everything would mate up, but there are two issues which made me shelve this project for some time instead.

 

One is the flywheel. I want to use the 218 4-bolt flywheel with the 230 8-bolt crank. Since I'm putting it in a light coupe, I figure it wasn't worth drilling the flywheel for 4 more bolts or having the rather scored 230 flywheel resurfaced.

 

But should I anyway? Did all the cranks eventually go to 8 bolts for good reason? Or was it just for the weight of the larger cars? Is there any external balance issue there to consider?

(I didn't see anything to indicate that on the flywheels.) I didn't weigh the flywheels, but I assumed the 218 flywheel was lighter, particularly since I thought it came from a lighter car.

 

Are they different other than the 4/8-holes?

 

The second issue is the harmonic damper & pulley.

 

FWIW, I don't have any way of knowing if either of these is the correct and original for the respective engines.Both have the narrow pulley, but the parts from the 230 are damaged. The holes in the pulley, damper, and crank flange are all just chewed up and wallowed out.  I think it was riveted, but drilled out & the rivets replaced with hex bolts for some reason. No way could I index the timing correctly from that mess ever!. I don't think it's worth repairing either. I want to just use the one from the 218, but they look different physically. The 230 damper has 2 big flats on the OD which the 218 version does not have. (I'll post up some photos later if that will help.)

 

Anyhow, is it possible the 230 engine will have a nasty vibration with the 218 damper on it?

Edited April 15, 2014 by Ulu

[Don Coatney]

You can use a 4 bolt flywheel on an 8 bolt crankshaft. Reason for 8 bolts is the fluid drive required 8 bolts. However you should measure the crankshaft flange recess on the 4 bolt flywheel and the 8 bolt flywheel as you will find a difference. The 4 bolt flywheel will sit further back in the bell housing  and the starter gear will  not mesh correctly. There is a fix for that if that is the direction you go. Also it requires special shoulder bolts to mate a 4 bolt flywheel to an 8 bolt crankshaft. And of course the holes are not concentric so you must find the right combination for all the bolts to line up. 

 

The harmonic balancer between a 218 and a 230 should be compatible.

[Jim Yergin]

I believe the flywheels have different offsets to account for the slightly longer 230 crank. If you use the 218 flywheel the starter may not reach far enough to engage.

Jim Yergin

[Ulu]

You can use a 4 bolt flywheel on an 8 bolt crankshaft. Reason for 8 bolts is the fluid drive required 8 bolts. However you should measure the crankshaft flange recess on the 4 bolt flywheel and the 8 bolt flywheel as you will find a difference. The 4 bolt flywheel will sit further back in the bell housing  and the starter gear will  not mesh correctly. There is a fix for that if that is the direction you go. Also it requires special shoulder bolts to mate a 4 bolt flywheel to an 8 bolt crankshaft. And of course the holes are not concentric so you must find the right combination for all the bolts to line up. 

 

The harmonic balancer between a 218 and a 230 should be compatible.

Man they sure look different. I figure the 230 damper would be different/heavier to accommodate the longer stroke 230. Maybe one or both aren't original/correct. I'll post some photos soon.

 

So I should really deepen the counterbore on the 218 flywheel, huh? I guess it's easier to resurface the 230 flywheel after all.

 

And shoulder bolts? I don't recall having any issue with the bolts when I first tried to bolt it up. I do know what you mean about the bolt pattern. It only fit one way. I'll have to have another look at this stuff.

[Niel Hoback]

    
  I have been using a 218 flywheel on a 230 crank for many years now, maybe 15, with no problems. Indexed the flywheel so the four holes lined up and used the same shoulder bolts that were in it when it was on a 218 truck motor.  Swinging a stick at a hornets nest.

[Adam H P15 D30]

The flywheel seems to be answered so on the the damper. My 49 didn't even come with a damper so I would leave it off. A worn or wrong damper will be far worse than none at all. I understand ma Mopar put them on some engines and not others.

FWIW my 49 doesn't have an internal or external coolant bypass either FROM THE FACTORY and has suffered no ill effects??

Edited April 15, 2014 by Adam H P15 D30

[Don Coatney]

Pictured are the shoulder bolts I used and my fix for the starter issue. Measure carefully as what worked for me may not work for you.

 

 

 

[Ulu]

Thank you all so much for the kind attention. Being a newb here it's quite gratifying.

 

That bell housing looks pretty meaty in the starter area, so I wouldn't hesitate to mill that if I had to. Fortunately it looks like I don't have to. However I have bell housings from both 218 & 230 & I was hoping that would solve the issue. Evidently not, as the length difference was all taken up in the flywheel counter bore.

 

Well I have options, which is always nice. What I don't have is photos of the dampers. I got involved in the bodywork last night & totally forgot to look for them in one of my ten shelves of old car parts.

 

We moved houses in the middle of this project, so you know what happens then. My pile of parts is in confusion.

 

I guess I'm thinking about the damper as having balancing properties, but as I recall there's no "lobe" to speak of. These engines don't really use any external balancing do they?

 

The 218 engine was always quite smooth for what it is (until I toasted a wristpin) so I will try the 218 damper (which is still in fine shape) on the 230.

 

I'm asking questions about parts I haven't actually looked at in a long time, so I'm relying on memory a lot here. I didn't recall there being shoulder bolts, but they're still threaded in the respective flywheels, so I'll have a look.

 

The truth is that I never intended to run this car as a 6v flathead when I bought it. I had always intended to install a modern ohv engine. It just ran so well that I never did do that, then I got into a situation where I had other cars of interest, so my '47 just sat ignored. Now that I'm refinishing it and deciding what running gear to have it almost seems like I'd enjoy running the antique gear again. Thus all the questions. (Well I haven't asked all of them yet. LOL )

 

Anyhow I'm on no time schedule, so there's plenty of time to decide what to do. Except for a few little issues I have a good set of running gear now, I'm just not sure I'll learn to love driving a 100 HP car again.

[Ulu]

The flywheel seems to be answered so on the the damper. My 49 didn't even come with a damper so I would leave it off. A worn or wrong damper will be far worse than none at all. I understand ma Mopar put them on some engines and not others.

FWIW my 49 doesn't have an internal or external coolant bypass either FROM THE FACTORY and has suffered no ill effects??

 

That's interesting. My factory manual shows a damper, but I don't recall what it says about it.

 

I remember calling Robert's MoParts years ago about a 230 damper, and he wanted to sell me one without knowing what year the engine/car was from & I was a tad suspicious that there were probably different ones depending on displacement, size of the car, whether it was GyroMatic, or who knows what? anyhow it was expensive & I didn't buy it.

[TodFitch]

For what it is worth, in the '30s the deluxe model Plymouths had impulse neutralizers/dampers while the standard or business models did not. I always figured it was a cost savings on the less expensive models.

[Ulu]

Many thanks Tod! Yes, that factoid will improve my sleep 100%.

[Plymouthy Adams]

can get one now on e-bay for 129.00 I think it was listed for...or you can get a nice used one..rember this type setup is usually three pieces..hub, dampner..pulley

[TodFitch]

Many thanks Tod! Yes, that factoid will improve my sleep 100%.

Just pushed one of my buttons.

 

"oid" as a suffix means similar but not really.

 

Planetoid -> a body in space that appears to be a planet but isn't.

Humanoid -> appears to be human but isn't.

Factoid -> Appears to be a fact but isn't.

 

By the way, factoid was coined by the author of a biography of Marilyn Monroe to describe all the things that people knew about her and repeated that sounded like facts but weren't true.

 

So a factoid is not a "little fact" but rather a falsehood that is masquerading as a fact. You might want to use "factlet" as a word to describe a trivial or arcane little fact. See, among other places: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Factlet

[Don Coatney]

So if I use factoid in a sentence is this a good example?

 

Of recent I have read a lot of factoids on this forum.

[Ulu]

Are we bored this PM fellas?

[T120]

Gotta love this forum.I'm always learnin' something new...now a word to add to my vocabulary - "factoid", (never heard that word used before) and I kinda skipped over it...Thanks Tod for bringing it to my attention and thankyou as well Don for illustrating it's use in a sentence.I probably won't use it although  maybe on second thought in jest 

[TodFitch]

Topic was about vibration dampers and cranks and I was feeling cranky, so I guess it was kind of on topic.

[Don Coatney]

While listening to a talk radio show a few days ago that features call in participants some lady called in to comment. Now when folks call in to a live radio show they always stress there point using big words to make then sound smart and important. I don't recall the topic but I do recall this lady saying "patriotarcal". My wife and I burst out laughing and have added that word to our vocabulary and use it every time we need a good laugh.

[_shel_ny]

. I don't recall the topic but I do recall this lady saying "patriotarcal". My wife and I burst out laughing and have added that word to our vocabulary and use it every time we need a good laugh.

Throw it in the same sentence with "matriarchal", and then you can be rolling on the floor

[Ulu]

Topic was about vibration dampers and cranks and I was feeling cranky, so I guess it was kind of on topic.

 

Well you threw a damper on my spirit!

 

I remember when I was young I was working in the drafting room at a big manufacturing company. We called ourselves "The Draftoids". I always just considered this a diminutive suffix of the slang sort. If that makes any sense. I was never a perfect student of grammar. Also not familiar with the Monroe Mystique Trivia.

Edited April 17, 2014 by Ulu

[Ulu]

OK, I haven't found the 218 damper yet, but this is the damper & pulley from the 230 Dodge.

 

You can see the holes have all been chewed out. Looks like somebody modified it at some point, though I couldn't imagine a good reason why.

 

The 218 model is slightly smaller and lighter with no flats. Also it's riveted to the pulley as I recall, while this one had bolts tapped into the crank flange.

 

 

You can see a hole drilled for balance, which is why I originally thought these might be not just dampers, but external balancing devices as well.

 

But the hole is so small that I sincerely doubt this is the case at all.

Edited April 18, 2014 by Ulu

[Plymouthy Adams]

looks like they many have realized that the hole are asymmetrically aligned..this is basically the only difference in big block and small block Mopar and only one hole is affected thus you can often see but one hole enlongated with interchange..

 

these are not that hard to find..example, there is one laying on my table out in the barn now...hub, pulley and damper ..

[Ulu]

So this could have come from a 265 & been "fitted" to the 230?

 

When I bought the 230, it had just been pulled out of a 46 DeSoto sedan, but the trans and engine were clearly Dodge..

[Don Coatney]

I agree with Plymouthy. Someone in the past failed to find the right combination and elected to wallow out one hole to make it fit. Pictured is a Desoto hub and you can clearly see the holes are not symmetrical. The Desoto engine is a 251 CI engine as Desoto never had a 265 CI engine. That was a Crashler only engine and only for a couple of years.

 

[_shel_ny]

Hub 677540 was the same D 37-54 P 42-49 C 38-54 DS 38-54 for vehicles without A/C or power steering

                                      

Damper #'s were numerous, but book shows damper with pulley # 869431 42-49 ply, 37-42 dod,                                             

 

Lower pulley 633735 Dodge 36-50 (early), Plym 32-50(early)

                             677541 MOST P 32-50; MOST D 36-50; MOST DS, C 38-50