That Long, Sporadic, Occasionally Embarrassing 1949 Windsor Build Thread Plymouthy Adams Expects

[GlennCraven]

So in searching far and wide for a frame, I ran across a really nice rolling chassis from an unfortunately cannibalized 1955 DeSoto. It's for sale on eBay. I mention it in this thread in the Outside Links section.

 

It's definitely not a direct match, but maybe could be reasonably modified.

 

Does anybody have a book with the frame dimensions for a '55 DeSoto Firedome coupe?

 

I've found that its wheelbase was 126 inches, while my Windsor is pretty darned close at 125.5, so that's mildly encouraging.

 

The overall length of the cars is very different (the DeSoto is essentially a foot longer) and there's an overall width difference (DeSoto about 78 inches wide, the Chrysler about 73), but that's obviously a function of their bodies more than just the frame, especially considering their similar wheelbases.

[Dave72dt]

Modifying a frame to fit your car is as much work as it is to repair what you have.

[Plymouthy Adams]

I agree with Dave..for the very efforts you have put forth on the internet based on all the CL listings you have posted.. one could easily have done the fix...

[Plymouthy Adams]

I guess I should expound a bit here before I get clobbered on the forum for being insensitive. Far from that..I think Glenn is being sorta strung along and has not been advised as to the extend of repair, if the shop is readily able to handle said repair, cost of said repair and the alternative cost of locating, acquiring, shipping, stripping and placement of frame under his car...and to do that the condition of his car if it is strong enough in body structure to withstand said replacement actions. It is not obvious but highly suspicion that by Glenn's own report that body damage (cracked glass and door no longer fitting as before)was only after the fact of the lifting the car via a hoist...I am not sure but suspect this very hoist is a four arm model..not kosher for bodies of unknown strength..Glenn needs these facts to move ahead without wasting further time or money on the venture..

[GlennCraven]

I agree with Dave..for the very efforts you have put forth on the internet based on all the CL listings you have posted.. one could easily have done the fix...

 

 

Who is "one?" ... You guys, yeah, but not me. I don't have the tools for that kind of work and the guys who do are waiting for me to determine the next move.

 

And which fix? ... The guys at the salvage yard where the car is are afraid there will be more than one, and that the overall frame might not be worth fixing.

 

They are glad to do some welding for me -- scab the bad spot or put in a new section of frame from a donor car, if that were the only weak location -- but they aren't going to pull the body off and sandblast to see for sure what's left of this frame. That just isn't what they do. And we already know there are a couple of body mounts that are shot. They are concerned I'll get nickel-and-dimed to death paying them to fix spot after spot on this frame when a different frame might be a faster and maybe even equally cost-effective answer.

 

Hence, my interest in donor frames. So I've been all over Craigslist to see if there's something out there that might work. Posting the other interesting things I see helps make it less depressing.

 

I've also priced a replacement frame from Moore's Auto Salvage in South Dakota, a place with which a lot of you might be familiar. They have a lot of Mopars, including numerous 1949-50 Chryslers.

 

They have one Windsor that's been mostly stripped, even the floors cut out, so they can get a really good look at the frame. They say it's "as nice as you'll find" -- except for one thing. At some point, somebody apparently needed the very rear stub of the frame where the bumper attaches. That's been cut off.

 

They quoted me $850, picked up in South Dakota or in Sioux Falls, Iowa, if I can meet them next week. That would cut 700 miles off the round trip.

 

And, I've left a message for the local guy whom I've been told can make me a custom frame. It would be good to know what he can do, and at what price.

[Old Ray]

Modifying a frame to fit your car is as much work as it is to repair what you have.

 

Yes it is.

 

I think that with the list of interchangeable frames, as small as it is, there are the correct frame (or parts cars) is out there. They are just not listed anywhere, so what about a blanket (USA) kijiji “wanted ad” in Classic cars (?) with a small reward for information leading to a purchase?  

[Young Ed]

Yes it is.

 

I think that with the list of interchangeable frames, as small as it is, there are the correct frame (or parts cars) is out there. They are just not listed anywhere, so what about a blanket (USA) kijiji “wanted ad” in Classic cars (?) with a small reward for information leading to a purchase?  

 

I agree and I think you can do better than the price from Moores. That would be an expensive price to pay for even an intact frame let alone one thats been cut off. Glenn try calling French Lake Auto parts in Annondale MN.

[Plymouthy Adams]

Glenn..you are the one...if not with the skill...with the pursestrings...you have been here..you have read..we have had debates and such on the chat...you know the drill so to speak..you need confidence only..either in yourself and or get a team in which you can trust and build confidence in the process...the testing of the frame is rather quick and straight forward..the repair if this is the only one damaged area can be relatively quick and easy and assure you all strength..I assure you I you have never removed a body from the frame to do a swap..you in for a huge surprise...prepping your very body that is now distorting from the initial venture on the lift HAS to be repaired prior to any frame swapping...that is a very in depth procedure itself..somewhere you have to either fish or cut bait...the chum bucket is full by the way...I like anyone here would hate to see this thing fall on its face before it even starts but so far the very drawback is basically a vote of no confidence...I am not urging you to disaster..only that at this time you really have no true inspection of the frame and a real plan of attack by your weld crew...

[GlennCraven]

Thanks for the input and I'll call French Lake. A Craigslist ad or two in this region would also be a good idea.

 

I agree $850 seems high for just a frame, especially since I paid $1,000 for the car (minus drivetrain). Of course, I got a crummy frame, huh? So what do I know?

 

I figured spending a couple of hours hitting all the regional Craigslist ads couldn't hurt. I saw two or three other Windsors for sale in this four-state area, all four-doors, around the time I bought mine. ... Most of them seemed in lesser condition (from photos anyway) for the same or more money.

 

It also dawned on me that a guy about an hour west of me was at the salvage auction back in July, when I bought my engine and trans. He was looking at a 1950 Dodge Wayfarer coupe -- a fair shell but all the glass busted out and trashed interior -- and told me he had a small salvage yard of mostly Mopar stuff. ... But I've forgotten his name. ... The salvage guy over here probably knows him, though. Or I could drive over there and ask around; only a couple-thousand people live in that county and it probably wouldn't take long to find somebody who could tell me where to find the guy.

[GlennCraven]

P.S. I'll go beat the heck out of the frame tomorrow.

[knuckleharley]

wheels on that wagon...great for perfect slabs of highway....O-rings tires...useless IMO on any car that sees daily use...but hey...I still own and appreciate original cave drawings

I understand de ho's and de bitches like them,though.

 

There are a bunch of 500 dollar cars running around here with 3 grand plus of wheels and tires on them,and that's not counting the lift kits.

[GlennCraven]

So my Craigslist spamming to three states (I skipped Arkansas so far) hasn't turned up a Chrysler, but I've had two people around Springfield, Mo., offer to sell various other Mopar cars and parts.

 

One seller has a "good inline 6" from a 1949 Plymouth he'd be willing to sell.

 

The other has, from what I can tell, three '49-'50 Plymouths, two wagons and a coupe. He says the coupe is "all there except the carb" and "the two wagons would be good to fix." He says all three bodies are complete and he'd be willing to sell parts or all.

 

I've asked both sellers if they have asking prices in mind for what they're selling.

 

I will be in Springfield soon -- definitely the weekend of Oct. 12-14, but might be able to arrange sooner -- if anyone wants photos or more info about these parts and cars. If you would like the sellers' contact information to reach out to them yourselves, PM me.

 

 

 

Edit: I just talked on the phone to the man with the wagons and coupe. He called me. It was a good talk, about these cars and old Mopars in general.

 

He said he got divorced a couple of years ago and "old Plymouths were something (he) and the wife did together," so he's "through with it." Wants to sell these vehicles and parts and get enough money for a better-mileage daily driver because his '85 Dodge pickup is killing him on gas with a 50-mile one-way commute.

 

He told me the coupe's floors were mostly missing, but other than the carburetor all the rest of the parts are there. The wagons are in more solid shape apparently and he considers both to be worth fixing up.

 

He's going to be out of town this weekend but back next, and I was already going to be in Springfield the next weekend, so we'll plan to meet up. I can see the cars (and some other parts he has) and even if nothing works for me, I will take a bunch of photos and share them here in case somebody needs a '49-'50 Plymouth wagon or coupe for parts or project.

Edited October 2, 2013 by GlennCraven

[GlennCraven]

Update: Didn't get a chance to call French Lake today. I had a friend decide to get married in front of a judge (he had disappointed his girlfriend long enough!) so I had to clean up and get down to the courthouse this afternoon and be a witness.

 

The current frame, however, has gotten a good pounding (which sounds dirty). The salvage owner is concerned about the frame in general. I'm in agreement that the driver's frame rail is likely a problem along most of its length; not just at the hole. It seems at least a bit thin almost from front to back. I thought the passenger frame rail sounded a bit better, but he didn't like it much, either. There are problems at most of the body mounts and at the passenger rear spring mount; rust-through of the mounts or flaky metal on the mounts and/or frame.

 

Sandblasting would tell us more, but that isn't what they do, so I'm still trying to get in touch with the guy who was recommended to me as a frame-fixer or -maker. The salvage owner knows him a little, but they aren't close enough for him to be my "in" with the guy to get my project accepted. (Sounds like private school admissions.) He did, however, vouch for the other guy as "an excellent fabricator."

 

Of note, when the car came down off the frame lift, it seems no tolerances were compromised at the doors, trunk, etc. The doors open and close just like they did before the car was lifted and the gaps all look fine. So I took that as an encouraging sign, even though the inner rockers are gone and there are clearly concerns with the frame.

 

Did talk to Moore's again and they are sending pictures this evening of the frame they have for $850.

 

A guy in western Kansas who is slowly parting out a 1949 Windsor on eBay (bumper the only part presently listed) replied to my email and said that he doubted he'd ever consider selling the whole car. I suspect he counts on making far more by parting it out than I'd pay for the whole thing. ... But it's been months and nobody's bought his $200 front bumper yet. Nor most of the other smalls he's listed from time to time. So I asked him for a list of all the parts he WOULD sell. No response yet.

 

There's some good brightwork at a high price from an eBay seller in Colorado, but it's all unmounted from the car so I'm assuming (perhaps wrongly) that he doesn't have the rest of it. I'll probably email him and ask, though.

Edited October 2, 2013 by GlennCraven

[falconvan]

Just my 2 cents, Glenn. If I were dealing with major frame damage I'd have to consider a complete S10 or Ranger frame swap. The track width would be close although you may have to shorten the overall length some. You could find a complete donor truck and have all your suspension, steering, and brakes ready to go, you'd just have to modify your floors and body mounts.

[GlennCraven]

That seems like a big "just," though. "Just modify the floors and body mounts." ... I sure didn't intend to get that involved with customization and fabrication.

 

I did call French Lake as Ed suggested and, seemingly to their own surprise, they didn't have a frame to help me.

 

However, a partially stripped parts car is available at a yard in South Dakota if I want it. The man who runs the business posted it here earlier this year, sold it to someone local, then that buyer has left the car right where it sat at his yard. They never took it home.

 

I found the man through another site where he has a similar username to the nick he used here, and I asked if the car might still be available. He bumped into his original buyer the same day and asked if the man might resell the car. He was told that I could have the car for $450.

 

The salvage yard already removed and sold all the brightwork inside and out, the dash, probably whatever was useful from the interior and if memory serves maybe a door or two. (It's a four-door I think.)

 

But, the guy says: "The rolling chassis, all suspension/drivetrain is there. Decent running flathead 6, transmission. I don't remember if it was Fluid Drive or not. It is a Windsor Highlander car. Hood is decent, front fenders not too bad as I remember. Generator, radiator, air cleaner, all complete under the hood. I haven't looked close, but I am quite sure the frame is good. The car was stored in a big building, up on a platform, not laying in the dirt."

 

He went out to check it, and added: "I was out back looking at it and the hood and front fenders are pretty good, not rusty or beat up. RR fender decent, LR dented quite a bit. Drivetrain/frame/suspension should all be very usable."

 

That sounds like a lot left for $450. In fact, it sounds like his car is complete and decent in just about all the places my car isn't, and vice-versa.

 

While I understand there are benefits to a complete frame swap onto something much newer -- modern brakes, power steering, whatever -- it seems a somewhat more straightforward solution would be putting a fair Windsor top on a fair Windsor bottom. Heck, I could skip the V8 swap and go with an original-style flathead if I wanted. (Or farm out the flathead, or save it for a future project.) ... I could still do an Explorer axle swap as part of the process, gaining discs in the rear and adding Rusty Hope discs in the front.

 

I've asked for a couple of pictures, but the parts car sounds promising. The trek to get the car is not insubstantial -- about 1,250 miles round-trip -- but can be done in a weekend. I sure haven't turned up anything as helpful in my immediate four-state area.

 

Meanwhile, Moore's Salvage near Rapid City did send pictures of their frame with the lopped-off rear stub for $850. But that hardly seems the best option with this parts car available.

 

Also, I was mistaken a bit about the previous local cars I posted. After talking with a local mechanic in an effort to get in touch with the street rod builder, it seems I'm dealing with three Randys here.

 

Randy M. is the salvage lot owner where my car is at the moment. He says Randy S. is "an excellent fabricator."

 

Sam the mechanic says the red Rambler wagon I pictured here was built by Randy A., who would probably be able to give me a good second opinion (besides that of Randy M.) on whether my current frame should be replaced instead of fixed, and would probably be more than happy to look at it, "because he's that kind of guy." Sam says Randy A. typically builds his cars on modern frames as Falcon suggests; the Rambler wagon is on an S-10 chassis.

 

If a custom frame were in order, Sam said Randy A., "would probably refer you to Randy S. (who) can be an (expletive) to work with, but is an excellent fabricator."

 

So, yes, three Randys, and further evidence that apparently I can't make things too simple.

Edited October 4, 2013 by GlennCraven

[knuckleharley]

 

That sounds like a lot left for $450. In fact, it sounds like his car is complete and decent in just about all the places my car isn't, and vice-versa.

 

$450 sounds like a deal to me. The welder would charge you more than that to fix your frame,IF your frame is even fixable. Plus,it gives you options. Get the flat 6 engine running,and if it runs good you have the option of using or selling it,or using or selling the 360 setup. Or even using it and holding on to the 360/727 in case you decide you need more HP later.

 

If you can do a 1250 mile round trip including loading a car in a weekend you are definitely younger than me. If you are up for that you might even consider driving to NC to buy my 49 Windsor coupe and then sell or part yours out after pulling the parts from it you would want for spares.

[GlennCraven]

Thanks for your thoughts, Arthur. I have friends in North Carolina I could always visit, too.

 

I'm probably younger than you, yes. Regardless, one thing I'm good for is road trips. I do like to drive.

 

Promising update: I just got an email from the man with the $450 parts car in South Dakota. He has reason to be in Kansas City in a couple of weeks and might be willing (for a price obviously) to trailer it that far for me. That would cut off almost three-fourths of my round-trip to get the car! And my brother lives just off the interstate on the outskirts of northern K.C. with a huge drive and multi-car shop that is an ideal place for delivery.

Edited October 4, 2013 by GlennCraven

[Old Ray]

…or…………… although being of an independent nature myself (read pig headed) and highly skeptical …………Uship might be a option.  

[GlennCraven]

…or…………… although being of an independent nature myself (read pig headed) and highly skeptical …………Uship might be a option.  

 

Worth getting a quote anyway.

[JerseyHarold]

My two cents:  Quit working on the 2-door until you take delivery of the $450.00 four door (or another suitable donor).....frame fabrication will be your most expensive option, IMO,  Then, assess both cars and decide how to proceed.   I would also talk to the shop owner who started the engine transplant and get a very clear idea of where he is going moneywise.   You may be walking into a five-figure project when all is said and done.

[GlennCraven]

The shop owner who started the engine transplant was just having his guy do a little welding for me at a reasonable price. An afternoon was the expectation, and if not for this frame issue that would have been realized.

 

At this point, I think he's done with it. So I'm not likely to get buried by his charges. ... Just by whomever else's charges might be required to finish the frame fix or swap.

 

Nothing else will be spent on this car until either the parts car is here or I decide to not buy that car and go some other route.

[Plymouthy Adams]

Glenn...check your PM...you have been challenged.....the rest is up to you, can you handle it?         

 

While it may be wise to abandon the 50 Chrysler due to the munted frame.....your reluctance to go forward awaiting a qualified man making an inspection is prudent..changing horses while as setback is only temporary compared to the disaster of a failed frame...

Edited October 6, 2013 by Plymouthy Adams

[GlennCraven]

1949 chrysler C-45 4dr. and club coupe use the same frame.

1949 Chrysler c-46  4dr. and club cpe. the same

1950 Chrysler C-51 again both models 4dr. etc.

1950 Chryler  C52   same  both models  "     "

 Ok try to explain, now C-45 frames above interchange with the C-51's

                             the  C-46 frames above interchange with the C-52's

 

Maybe some to look for an replacement. No other Mopar frames use the same #, per 46-56 Hollander interchange.

 

Best

 

Doug

 

 

The more I think about this, the more I'm surprised the corresponding DeSoto models didn't use the same frame as their Chrysler counterparts. ... Why is that, I wonder? How much difference could there be?

 

 

 

[Old Ray]

 I don’t think that is beyond the realm of reason that the manufacture (Chrysler!!) might change the part number (if that’s what Hollander goes by) just for a extra bracket or even a new hole location.  

[GlennCraven]

That's what I'm wondering.

 

Does anyone have a 1949-50 DeSoto shop manual for frame photos and measurements? There's a six-cylinder DeSoto 500 miles closer to me than the potential Chrysler parts car I've found in South Dakota.

Edited October 15, 2013 by GlennCraven