1939 Ply P8 New Project

[knuckleharley]

 

I had a 66 Triumph TR6 when I was in the service. Back in 72

I had a 66 Bonneville with TT cams and pistons when I was on Okie in 66. Rarely got to ride it because I was in SF,and was deployed more than I was back at the base. No real room to store anything,and it would have been stolen by the time I got back 6 months later,anyhow.

 

Sold the Bonneville to a guy at Bragg for 650 bucks in 69,and bought a 52 Panhead Harley for 250 bucks and rode it back to Bragg. By that time I was on permanent physical profile from VN,so I spent my last 6 months in the army as a motor pool guard on Smokebomb Hill. I was guarding the cars and trucks of the guys that were deployed and didn't live off base. Sometimes I'd ride the Harley around the perimiter,and sometimes I'd just put on a dark blue coverall and sneak around to see if I could catch anybody.

 

Next was a 40 knuckle I bought in boxes,then a 74 FLH built out of pieces,and finally a 76 fat bob FLH. I built a few bikes for others to help with the expenses,but those were the ones I owned. Still have the 76 Fat Bob,but too crippled up to ride it.

[40desoto]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lBWYl9V0Qmw

[desoto1939]

SInce you stated that you plan on driving the car at 60-70 MPH  I would then install the disk brake setup on the car and then also swap out the rear to a more desireable road rearend that can handle those speeds.

 

So are you going to Hotrod the car or just add modification to make it go faster?

 

Also be carefl when driving at thos speeds.  These cars were origannly setup to cruise comfortably in the 45-55 mph range with the original motor/trans and rear setup.

 

Just my 2 cents. My big question is why do alot of people buy and old car and then want to go at sppeds like a modern car?  If you have a car that needs total restoration then make it a streetord but the older cars were not ment to be driven at such high speeds. Slow down and enjoy the sites. or just go modern and save alot of cash.

 

Rich HArtung

desoto1939@aol.com

[hkestes41]

Lloyd,

 

I will throw in my 2 cents worth, you can add $4.37 to it and get a cup of coffee at Starbucks.

 

If your 201 is not beyond minor repair to get it running, then I would do a tune up and whatever it takes to get the engine to run. You said "After that I will look at the rear-end then all new brakes. Finally the front end, suspension and steering. When all that's done I will start on electrical." With your 201 running, you could do all the other work you suggest while still enjoying driving the car. The rear-end swap can be done in a short weekend as can the front suspension rebuild. Electrical will likely take a bit longer, but not that much longer.

 

In the mean time you can be on the lookout for a 230 and an R10 OD or a T5 if that is the direction you want to go. I had every intention of going with the T5 in my 48 but was looking on Ebay one day and found a 52 model Plymouth 218 with transmission that nobody had bid on. His starting bid price was $275 and the auction was ending in about an hour. Problem with his add was that the photos were fairly dark and not that easy to pick out details. I almost breezed past it but when I got to looking closer at the pictures I picked out what appeared to be the solenoid and governor on the transmission. Sent him a message asking if it was indeed an overdrive transmission and he responded that it was. Made him an offer of $225 and a deal was done. Had no need for the engine so sold it locally for recouped a major portion of my outlay making the overdrive close to free.

 

Found my 230 on the HAMB classifieds from a guy who was putting a 360 in his 57 Dodge. Paid a whopping $150 for the engine and standard 3 speed transmission. Pulled the head and oil pan off the engine to find that it had been rebuilt with very few miles on it. There was absolutely zero sludge build up in the engine at all. Got back in touch with the guy I bought it from and he said that he bought the car, drove it into his shop and pulled the engine. The person he bought it from said it had been rebuilt but never indicated that it was a low mile rebuild.  

 

My point with this long winded post, is that my car was already running and driving. I had rebuilt the front suspension, added disc brakes and rebuilt the rear springs / shackles all while driving it as my daily driver. Since it was a driver, I didn't NEED the overdrive or 230. I wanted both but didn't need them at the time so was able to hold off on some much more expensive "opportunities" and wait for more reasonable options to present themselves. The stuff you want is out there and if you can afford to wait, you can find decent deals. It is the guy who has to have it NOW who ends up paying through the nose.

[Lloyd]

Thanks hkestes41, I appreciate your input and it is well heard, especially about saving money. Don mentioned about the same thing. The 39 has a rod knocking, sounded like a bearing. Also I noticed alot of smoke coming from the oil fill and the exhaust - look like it was puffing on a compression stroke. There is also some kind of cup-like thing just below the oil filler cap that is full of oil. I would say blow-by. The guy I bought it from said he would just drop the pan replace the bearing and keep trucking. To me that says engine rebuild. I am not going to bang up the crank, cylinder - whatever is knocking anymore than it already is. The brake pedal goes to the floor - nothing. Headlights are missing, nothing but holes up front. Brake lights same story. Trunk lid is just sitting on the back. Battery is ready to fall thru the box underneath.

Even if I wanted to drive it the engine still needs to be gone over with a fine toothed comb. Why pull that engine out, spend time and money on it then put it back in and continue to look for another newer block. When I get a newer 230 I will spend the time, effort and money on that engine, perhaps after I have this car up and running I will look at rebuilding the original 201 but until then it will sit in the corner. Since I am looking at exchanging the engine I might as well get a tranny with an OD at the same time.

 

Thanks for the note on the rearend - I have done a little research on the original gearing and what options may be available, that will be on down the line a bit. Currently I'm poking at some salvage yards around the state for a 50's engine and hopefully a trans with OD.

[james curl]

I used a 90 Dakota with a 3.55:1 ratio  on Tim Adams advice.  I was able to keep my original wheels, it required a new style U joint on the aft end of the drive shaft, plus removing the original spring pads and replacing them with new pads and setting the pinion angle to the same angle as the original rear end that came in my car.  If you chose to try the T-5 method of over drive the Mustang world class with the high first gear is closest to the original ratio.  You will want to research the T-5 transmissions and their ratios and the cars they are found in.  It would be nice to find one with the gear ratio close to the stock transmission.  You will probably find that is in the late 90s Mustang, the problem with that is the case mounts are Ford style and no one makes an adapter for them that I know about.  You can research the method that Don Coatney adapted his bell housing for the GM patterned mounting bolt pattern.  Be aware that the Ford pattern has the bottom two holes much  below the bottom of the Plymouth bell housing and will require a different approach than the one that Don used.

Edited September 3, 2013 by james curl

[Lloyd]

Thanks James. What I would really like to find is the R7 trans that Jim mentioned earlier. He said it was bolt for bolt - and that would be great. I have looked around but the ones I have found the owners are mighty proud of. As far as T5 or S10 I am leaning on the S10 approach but seems like most of you guys are going with the T5. I figured I would locate an engine first and keep looking for the R7. After I have an engine I can go from there. I did look at Dons photo bucket, book marked it.

Thanks for the info on the rear-end but that may be a few months before I get to that. I did run across one posting and these guys were talking about an angle of 2% that left a question. You said you mounted your rear-end at the same angle. How did you measure this angle? Using what tool and from where to where? 

[hkestes41]

Lloyd

 

The T5 is the transmission from an S10.

[james curl]

I used a machinist protractor that is adjustable with a bubble level on the center section and then on the spring pads.  just set the axle in a pair of jack stands, rotate the center section to the first reading and secure the tubes of the axle to the jack stands with C clamps.  Then set the spring pads on the second angle at the correct location for the springs.  Then weld the pads on, now they should match your old rear end in location and angle in relation to the center section.  You can buy a cheap machinist protractor at Harbor Freight or buy a Starrett for a lot of money.

[Lloyd]

Lloyd

 

The T5 is the transmission from an S10.

Yeah, so I understand. What I was trying to say is that I would use a from an S-10 rather than get a T5 then getting the tail-end from an S10 to move the shifter forward.

[Lloyd]

I used a machinist protractor that is adjustable with a bubble level on the center section and then on the spring pads.  just set the axle in a pair of jack stands, rotate the center section to the first reading and secure the tubes of the axle to the jack stands with C clamps.  Then set the spring pads on the second angle at the correct location for the springs.  Then weld the pads on, now they should match your old rear end in location and angle in relation to the center section.  You can buy a cheap machinist protractor at Harbor Freight or buy a Starrett for a lot of money.

Thanks for the response James. That's pretty good. Sounds easy enough and makes perfect sense but I think I would like to see it done before I tried it myself. There aint no one but me and the car in the garage and she don't talk much, not much help at all. It may be a few months before I get to that but when I do I am going to try and find someone around here that can show me. I know a couple guys built some real nice cars. Thanks for the heads up.

[james curl]

You can measure both rear ends on the vertical face surface of the pinion.  You rotate them on jack stands until the surface is vertical using a level.  Then you can sit the adjustable protractor of the machinist  level on the spring pads and level the bubble. Then transfer the setting to the new spring pads and tack weld them in place.  Check all measurements on the location of the original spring pad and  transfer them on the new rear end.  On the T-5 transmissions, you want one that has the second, third and fourth gear ratios as close as possible to the original Plymouth transmission.  The ratios are as follows for the 46-48 P-15 transmissions.  First 2.57:1, second 1.83:1 and third 1:1.  The first gear on the T-5 is only to get the car rolling as most fall in the 3.76:1 range, 3.97:1 or 4;03:1 first gear ratio.  Second gear ratios for those transmissions run from 2.18:1, 2.34:1, or 2.37:1 which is a little higher than the stock first gear.  Third gear ratio for those transmissions run from 1.42:1. 1.46:1 and 1.49:1 which is higher that the stock transmission and fourth is 1:1 the same as the stock high gear ratio.  You will want an over drive in the .70:1 ratio which none of these have, they run from .72:1 to .86:1.  Any Camero/Firebird V6 with GM bell housing bolt pattern will work with an S-10 tail shaft housing replacing the Camero/Firebird tail shaft housing.  Any 1983 through 1986 Camero/Firebird V8 non world class transmission would be a good choice for ratios closest to the original gear ratios used in the Plymouth transmissions with overdrive.  All later world class T-5 transmissions used in the Camero/Firebird V8 cars used Ford bell housing bolt pattern and will require more work to adapt them to your Plymouth bell housing.  I know this is very wordy and hope it clarifies the problem, not make it worse.

[Lloyd]

Not at all James. This has been one of the most helpful replies. I sent an email to a guy name Paul Curtis in Michigan about an adapter. He sent me an excel spreadsheet with Tag # (the tag on the trans), Vehicle application, code, then 1st, 2nd, 3rd and 4th gear ratios for that trans. Plus a list of cars below it including Ford, Camaro/Firebird, GM, AMC and more. I had no idea what direction to go with it other than know but your post shed some light on it.

This chart shows the 1994 Camaro/firebird V6 WC, 1996 Camaro/firebird V6 WC - but it also shows the 94 and 96 Camaro/Firebird V6 WC as having an electric speedometer.

A GM 1985 Camaro/Firebird 2.8 V6 will work but first gear at 4.03 is really high.

I see a GM 1984, 1985 Camaro/Firebird 5.0 V8 1st- 2.95, 2nd- 1.94, 3rd- 1.34, 4th- 1.1, 5th- .73.

That looks pretty good - its not WC but I don't plan on smoking the tires at stop signs. That looks real good huh?

I understand the WC trans are made stronger for more torque and HP. But I I don't believe I need to place that as a requirement. My hotrod days are over. I just want a smooth, quiet comfortable ride.

Anyway you post brought this chart into the light for me, thanks again.

[40desoto]

I started my project with the same intention as you.  I estimated i would have it complete and running in 6-8 months..   Reality hit me and know Im estimating 2 years to do it right.  Theres a lot of decisions to be made in order to follow the right path., and when you ask for advise you will find varying answers..  I think the best thing to do is spend time reading, researching, both pros and cons on every option and patiently go from there. 

If your not that patient and want to get it on the road before you lose interest I would follow hkestes41 's recomendation..  Else take your time, do the research, and do it right.

 

Here is what Im doing with mine.. and Im not changing my mind..  It took me about 6 months just to do the research and decide

 

- rebuilding the original 228 engine ( will get it running the look for speed goodies such as dual carb intake, aluminum head, headers, electronic ignition etc..

- replacing the original (non- R7) overdrive transmission with a 1986 s10 t5.   Its not world class but Im looking to push it too hard

- rear end from a 1972 Plymouth Satelitte. stud to stud meaurement is 3/4 in wider than original and brake backing plate will clear frame

- front suspension; Fatman dropped uprights, Disk brake backing plate from  Scarbird (comes with instructions and part numbers on how convert to disk brakes),  1967 mustang dual Master cylinder (if i recall its a 1967 mustang)

- RebelWire 12 volt wiring kit.

[Lloyd]

Hey 40desoto. Sounds like you got it figured out. Good luck. I'm not in any hurry at all to drive mine, I've got a few things to take care of first. I have to locate a 230 motor first, then go thru it, complete rebuild. I will be putting a T5 S10 as well. I've gotten a lot of feedback concerning which one to get. James helped out a lot on that with his input on trannys. But its looking like a Camaro/firebird mid 80's. Mine probably wont be WC either but that's OK. Get that straight then driveline and rear-end, brakes and get some headlights and tail lights for it. After that I should be close to taking it around the block. Ill put stock brakes back on - replace master and all wheel cylinders. Hopefully the brake lines are all free but Ive got air so I will be checking that. If any are plugged then I will replace those to. Gotta have brakes!

I appreciate the feed back, when I get to the rear-end - sometime next year - Ill check out the Satellite. Right now I'm at my real job, working. My job is 24/7 for 6 weeks straight but good thing is after my hitch I get 3 weeks off. Gives me 3 weeks to tinker.

[blucarsdn]

Column vs stick in '39 Plyms... The P7 39's, ecomony version had the gear shift on the floor, P8's Delux version had column mounted gear shifts..

There are several guys in the POC that have installed OD transmissions in their cars.. A few of which are '39's and later.. I know a couple of guys that used the early DeSoto OD's in their cars..

In many cases the easyest way to install an OD trans into an earlier car is to find a complete engine/trans combo from a later Plym, '50, etc.. The later engine would be much more desirable, engineering wise, and pretty well be a direct swap...

You will be hard pressed to run your '39 at highway speeds, 60/70 considering the very low rear axle gear ratio, however, an OD trans will work well with a low axle ratio... Generally speaking, the '39's are basically 50 MPH cars.

My '39 conv. cpe has all late model running gear with a V8 and AOD trans, cruises very nicely at 70/75 on the hiway.. I have a lot of parts for the '39 Plyms should the need arise.... Bill

[Dave72dt]

Don't just blow through the brake lines.  Replace them! They corrode from the inside as well as the outside and an emergency stop may well blow a line that works fine during normal braking.  Hoses as well.  Gotta have brakes.

[Lloyd]

Hello blucarsdn, thanks for weighing in. Congratulations on the convertible. That's a rare find.

 

My '39 conv. cpe has all late model running gear with a V8 and AOD trans, cruises very nicely at 70/75 on the hiway.. I have a lot of parts for the '39 Plyms should the need arise.... Bill

 

So what year and model engine, trans and rear-end did you place in your 39 convertible.

Also I could use headlight buckets with chrome rings, complete trunk lid with handle. I could also use an engine....

[Lloyd]

Don't just blow through the brake lines.  Replace them! They corrode from the inside as well as the outside and an emergency stop may well blow a line that works fine during normal braking.  Hoses as well.  Gotta have brakes.

OK, thanks Dave - good point. Your right, I will plan on replacing them as well.

[Lloyd]

I'm looking at a 1950 218 block for $275. Its been boiled and fluxed. Is that a fair price? I read in an earlier post that with my 1939 201 the internal parts would not fit later model engines. But what about the external parts such as exhaust, intake manifolds, valve covers, timing covers ... would the external parts on my 1939 201 fit the 1950 218 block?

I know I would have to purchase a head.

Of course I would have to get crank, piston and rods, cam - all that stuff as well but I've come across a number of sites that sell engine components.

How would that work out, to purchase a bare block, purchase all internal components and swap all external components from my 201?

[Young Ed]

I'm looking at a 1950 218 block for $275. Its been boiled and fluxed. Is that a fair price? I read in an earlier post that with my 1939 201 the internal parts would not fit later model engines. But what about the external parts such as exhaust, intake manifolds, valve covers, timing covers ... would the external parts on my 1939 201 fit the 1950 218 block?

I know I would have to purchase a head.

Of course I would have to get crank, piston and rods, cam - all that stuff as well but I've come across a number of sites that sell engine components.

How would that work out, to purchase a bare block, purchase all internal components and swap all external components from my 201?

 

Yes all the external stuff will bolt on. The only thing to watch for is mismatch of the thermostat bypass system.

[james curl]

I would think you could buy a complete 218/230 for that price.  It would need to be re-built, but that would still be cheaper than buying a crank and rods plus all of the other parts to build the bare block.  Keep checking the for sale adds here and on the H.A.M.B.  Most of the guys on the H.A.M.B. will replace their engine with a later model V8.

[Lloyd]

Thanks. From what Im understanding the blocks are the same 201-230 from 39 to mid and late fifties. This includes Dodge as well right?

Buying the complete engine would be preferred. I'll check out H.A.M.B

thanks again.

[TodFitch]

Thanks. From what Im understanding the blocks are the same 201-230 from 39 to mid and late fifties. This includes Dodge as well right?

Buying the complete engine would be preferred. I'll check out H.A.M.B

thanks again.

Block was changed in '42, the 201 ('35 through '41) block and the 218 block are different. Look pretty much the same on the outside but the insides (bearing sizes, etc.) are different. I suspect there was another change in things like bearings in the early to mid 1950s too but someone more familiar with that era would have to speak up.

 

Best bet is to get a complete engine then rebuild it if needed. Bolting a post war 218 or 230 into a '35 through '41 car should be no problem at all.

[ed.boyle]

Hi Lloyd,

 

Don't know if you are still in the market for one but I'm about to pull a 218 and tranny out of my '47.  You're welcome to it for whatever you think is fair (scrap price).... I'd really hate to scrap it, also don't need it taking up space..... 

 

http://i1365.photobucket.com/albums/r746/edwardnaimeeboyle/img9_zpseb59e40c.jpg

 

http://s1365.photobucket.com/user/edwardnaimeeboyle/media/img9_zpseb59e40c.jpg.html