R7 Overdrive Pre-Install Inspection

[bamfordsgarage]

Hello all.  I recently acquired a 40 Plymouth R7 overdrive transmission from forum member Ed Compton (40plyrod) in BC. This should be a straightforward install into my '47 D25 providing it is in good operating condition. (Forum members may recall that I purchased an R7 last year from Neil Riddle in WA that proved to be a very expensive boat anchor.) If the the new transmission checks out OK we'll get it installed within the next week and drive the Dodge to Portland the week after for the big swap meet April 5-7.

 

I'll give it a thorough internal inspection over the next couple days before contemplating installation. This will be my first time into a sliding gear transmission and overdrive, and would really appreciate any hints and tips from those with previous experience. I have at hand some photocopied technical info on 1938-40 Studebaker ODs and a 1975 Stockel's manual with considerable info on later units.

 

George Asche kindly suggested some things that Ed could check without disassembly — such as no water or burned smell at the drain holes — and all seems fine. This morning I'm reading through my reference material and plan to pick up the tools later today.

 

All suggestions and comments are most welcome!

 

By the way, a big tip of the cap to Ed for first of all wanting to be sure that this unit would suit my needs, for holding onto my cheque until we are sure, and for the fantastic packing crate he built for shipping. As a matter of fact , the transmission was shipped from Vancouver Island twice — the first time UPS rolled their truck and damaged the crate, then returned it to Ed and tried to blame him for poor packaging (as if!). Ed repaired the crate and sent it out by Purolator who delivered it in fine condition five days later.

 

Photos: Available info; OK, now what?; Grate Crate, Mate; C/W speedo and OD cables, even the trunk script; Flanges bolted to bulkheads beat UPS at their own game, interesting smells. 

[DJ194950]

Hello all.  I recently acquired a 40 Plymouth R7 overdrive transmission from forum member Ed Compton (40plyrod) in BC. This should be a straightforward install into my '47 D25 providing it is in good operating condition. (Forum members may recall that I purchased an R7 last year from Neil Riddle in WA that proved to be a very expensive boat anchor.) If the the new transmission checks out OK we'll get it installed within the next week and drive the Dodge to Portland the week after for the big swap meet April 5-7.

 

I'll give it a thorough internal inspection over the next couple days before contemplating installation. This will be my first time into a sliding gear transmission and overdrive, and would really appreciate any hints and tips from those with previous experience. I have at hand some photocopied technical info on 1938-40 Studebaker ODs and a 1975 Stockel's manual with considerable info on later units.

 

George Asche kindly suggested some things that Ed could check without disassembly — such as no water or burned smell at the drain holes — and all seems fine. This morning I'm reading through my reference material and plan to pick up the tools later today.

 

All suggestions and comments are most welcome!

 

By the way, a big tip of the cap to Ed for first of all wanting to be sure that this unit would suit my needs, for holding onto my cheque until we are sure, and for the fantastic packing crate he built for shipping. As a matter of fact , the transmission was shipped from Vancouver Island twice — the first time UPS rolled their truck and damaged the crate, then returned it to Ed and tried to blame him for poor packaging (as if!). Ed repaired the crate and sent it out by Purolator who delivered it in fine condition five days later.

 

Photos: Available info; OK, now what?; Grate Crate, Mate; C/W speedo and OD cables, even the trunk script; Flanges bolted to bulkheads beat UPS at their own game, interesting smells. 

 

While i don't know anything about the r-7's, i can guarantee that the Seller spent a lot time boxing the trans for shipment!

I sold a r-10 to a guy in N. Carolina a year or so ago.  Final  weight boxed was 123 lbs. Limit for regular Fed-Ex ground was was 125lb.. Otherwise i had to ship it Fed-Ex truck at 2 + times the cost! Still was $125 to ship Ca. to N.C. Took three afternoons/ 1/2 sheet of 3/8" ply. wood blocks/ glue/ wood screws/ lots of planning!!

Kudos to the seller for all of his considerations.

Hope This one is Great, I'm sure you will love it!!

 

Good luck on longer?? explorations with your car, Also unblievable, your advertures.  

 

Reminds me of my uncle Ed, who threw 5 of his 6 kids in the back of his truck w/ camper shell (one of the6 took turns in front with him and his wife) and left Ca. bay area and went to N. Alaska back in the early 60's when the alaskan highway was only gravel. Only real plan ahead of time was two extra tires tired to the top of the camper shell!! He did NOT believe in motels etc. Can't beleve it, nor his kids that will never forget it as they are all 60+ these days!!       

 

Best to ya,  

 

Doug

[40plyrod]

How's the inspection going? I'm interested to see what parts that make it work are inside.

[bamfordsgarage]

 

While i don't know anything about the r-7's, i can guarantee that the Seller spent a lot time boxing the trans for shipment!...

 

...Good luck on longer?? explorations with your car, Also unbelievable, your advertures.  ...Doug

 

How's the inspection going? I'm interested to see what parts that make it work are inside.

 

You got that right, Doug (and thanks for your kind words) — this was one sturdy crate, clearly made by a guy who likes things done right. The R7 I bought last year was shipped UPS from the Seattle area in a taped up cardboard box with some bubble wrap and foam rubber. UPS dropped the carton and busted a cast mounting flange.

_ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _

 

I am not too proud to admit I'm in over my head with this project. The Studebaker R7 (for which I have some repair info) does not disassemble the same way as the Mopar R7. I have R10 info in my 1946-54 Plymouth repair manual, but that unit, too, appears enough different to the R7 that I haven't even been able to get mine apart for inspection. I am worried about busting or damaging something in the process.

 

Once apart I am not overly confident I will be able to properly inspect what I have or get it put back together correctly. From what I have read, there might be a mess of bearing needles get loose and who knows what else.

 

At this point I see two possibilities...

 

1. Someone on Forum withe Mopar R7 technical info and/or experience can share it with me and I can work through this better armed; or

 

2. I can just button this thing back up, fill it with lube, install it as is and hope for the best. Sounds like quitting but George Asche and others have said they are pretty sturdy units and if what drains out doesn't look rusty or smell burnt they are probably OK.  The time I have spent on this so far would have been enough to do a swap!

 

Can anybody help with R7 service information and/or experience?

[Young Ed]

Can't help any with taking it apart but I will say Dad is running multiple R10s following your #2 pointer.

[Alshere59]

I have one in my car and love it. I have not had it apart so I can not help there but I would go with your option 2 as well. Just draining it look for shavings etc but other than that refill with GL-1 and try it.

You may want to look at the shifter arms on the tranny once you get your old one out as I swapped one or both so that my linkage lined up. Been awhile and going from memory but I do remember changing at least one of them.

Not sure you need this but here is the wiring diagram I got from George Asche. Do you have the relay as I didn't see it pictured? Also use 10 gauge wire between the relay and solenoid.

I would like a picture showing the stock engage/disengage cable bracket if possible. Mine works but I may redo the bracket depending on what you have as mine is a bit stiff due to the angle.

 

[bamfordsgarage]

...look at the shifter arms on the tranny once you get your old one out as I swapped one or both so that my linkage lined up....Do you have the relay as I didn't see it pictured?...I would like a picture showing the stock engage/disengage cable bracket if possible...

 

Thanks Alshere and Young Ed for your comments — Option #2 is looking more likely.

 

It looks like both shifter arms need to be swapped out, thanks for the wiring diagram, I don't yet have a relay, and are these the cable bracket pictures you wanted?

[Alshere59]

It looks like both shifter arms need to be swapped out, thanks for the wiring diagram, I don't yet have a relay, and are these the cable bracket pictures you wanted?

 

That is the bracket. So where did they attach it and do you have a spare from your first R7? If you do and care to sell it send me a PM.

[bamfordsgarage]

That is the bracket. So where did they attach it and do you have a spare from your first R7...

 

Sorry, no spare bracket. Not sure yet about location, but believe it mounts to the bell housing. Parts list for P9 and P10 describes it as "fastens to housing" and the cable length from clamp sleeve to actuation lever is 15-16", which puts the clamp at or past the front of the transmission.

[bamfordsgarage]

I am confused about lubricant for my R7 Overdrive. I have seen a number of different recommendations, some contradictory...

 

— The 1946-54 Plymouth Repair Manual calls for SAE 80 Fluid Gear Lubricant (presumably for the later R-10 model)

 

— Jim Yergin uses 40-wt motor oil, per his B-W manual

 

— Some stress to use Non-Hypoid lubricant, as this extreme pressure lube can damage brass parts

 

— Forum member Dutchman recommends NAPA NHF 65201 SAE 90 Mineral Gear Oil

 

— George Asche uses only Amsoil 20-40 Synthetic Diesel oil since "SAE 80 is too thick and ruins the planetary gears... I found that out later"

 

Comments? Suggestions? Experience?  I am leaning toward the 40 or 20-40 wt oil, but need to have my confidence bolstered before going against the  Mopar manual.

[Joe Flanagan]

Chris,

I used whatever George Asche recommended. I haven't driven the car yet, but I do remember it was a motor oil for diesel engines. I got my R10 from Neil RIddle, so I hope I don't wind up the proud owner of a very expensive boat anchor, as happened to you. I debated pulling the whole thing apart but decided against it for the very reasons you mention above. I figure I'll see if it gives me trouble. If it does, THEN I'll dig into it. But I, too, have heard they are very sturdy and don't often go wrong. 

[Alshere59]

Reading down the list it looks like all are following the manual just in different ways.

Wikipedia does caution against using anything with EP additives due to the yellow metal getting corroded from the additives.
"EP additives which contain phosphorous/sulfurous compounds are corrosive to yellow metals such as the copper and/or brass used in bushings and synchronizers; the GL1 class of gear oils does not contain any EP additives and thus finds use in applications which contain parts made of yellow metals."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gear_oil

I am going with Georges recommendation currently but I think it is 20-50 roughly 5000 miles to date

It should be interesting to see what others are using.


BW OD Manual



Al.

[Alshere59]

Sorry, no spare bracket. Not sure yet about location, but believe it mounts to the bell housing. Parts list for P9 and P10 describes it as "fastens to housing" and the cable length from clamp sleeve to actuation lever is 15-16", which puts the clamp at or past the front of the transmission.

Thanks for the info. Looking at your measurements it looks like it would attach to the lowest ear on the tranny that bolts to the bell housing. Thanks again 

[bamfordsgarage]

Thanks Alshere and Joe. Synthetic 40wt it is.

 

I am looking for a suitable relay and switch (dash or shifter mount, not kickdown) now.

 

Just to be sure, I think I want a 6-volt, normally open, four-terminal, non-latching, insulated relay, rated at 10 Amp+ in the switched circuit, and a conventional on-off switch.

 

Does this sound right?

[Don Coatney]

6-volt, normally open, four-terminal, non-latching, insulated relay6-volt, normally open, four-terminal, non-latching, insulated relay

Thanks Alshere and Joe. Synthetic 40wt it is.

 

I am looking for a suitable relay and switch (dash or shifter mount, not kickdown) now.

 

Just to be sure, I think I want a 6-volt, normally open, four-terminal, non-latching, insulated relay, rated at 10 Amp+ in the switched circuit, and a conventional on-off switch.

 

Does this sound right?

Sounds close to me. Only thing I can add is

 

6-volt, normally open, four-terminal, momentary contact (as opposed to push and hold) non-latching, insulated relay

[Jim Yergin]

I am sorry but I disagree with Don. As I understand the way the relay works on the O/D, when the governor reaches the specified speed it connects to ground and completes the circuit thereby energizing the relay that in turn sends power to the solenoid, activating the O/D. It is not a momentary connection but constant in the non-locking relay. When the ground is broken (governor drops below speed) the relay de-energizes and the power to the solenoid is cut off. When you lift your foot off the accelerator the solenoid withdraws and the O/D is de-activated. Alternatively, a switch can be used that also interrupts the ground circuit, regardless of speed, but that switch would not be momentary. The only momentary switch I can think of is one that is used to interrupt the ignition circuit to cause the solenoid to withdraw, or one to activate a locking relay to turn the relay on or off (what I am using because my momentary switch is normally open).

I think Chris is correct in his description of what he needs.

Jim Yergin  

[Alshere59]

Thanks Alshere and Joe. Synthetic 40wt it is.

 

I am looking for a suitable relay and switch (dash or shifter mount, not kick down) now.

 

Just to be sure, I think I want a 6-volt, normally open, four-terminal, non-latching, insulated relay, rated at 10 Amp+ in the switched circuit, and a conventional on-off switch.

 

Does this sound right?

 

This may help. See below as I think Jim may be on the right track.. IF it was using a switch on the throttle linkage it would be momentary contact. Relays as I understand them are latching or on as long as they are energized which this one would be. I think blue skies added a latching relay on his as his column Mount switch  was momentary contact as he wanted to disable the overdrive at will not just passing or on a hill. Which is what Jim was saying. Although I am not sure the added relay would be needed if a column Mount switch was a standard on and off rated appropriately.

 

I thought I remembered a thread where someone hid a modern relay in an old housing but I cannot find it. That would be cheaper.

[T120]

Chris,Not going to get into a debate about lubricants,but I bought a case of NAPA GL1 SAE 90 for my own use,(trans.lubricant).For some reason NAPA in Canada says they can't supply it?..I picked it up at a NAPA outlet in Cutbank, Montana.

         

[Don Coatney]

I am sorry but I disagree with Don. As I understand the way the relay works on the O/D, when the governor reaches the specified speed it connects to ground and completes the circuit thereby energizing the relay that in turn sends power to the solenoid, activating the O/D. It is not a momentary connection but constant in the non-locking relay. When the ground is broken (governor drops below speed) the relay de-energizes and the power to the solenoid is cut off. When you lift your foot off the accelerator the solenoid withdraws and the O/D is de-activated. Alternatively, a switch can be used that also interrupts the ground circuit, regardless of speed, but that switch would not be momentary. The only momentary switch I can think of is one that is used to interrupt the ignition circuit to cause the solenoid to withdraw, or one to activate a locking relay to turn the relay on or off (what I am using because my momentary switch is normally open).

I think Chris is correct in his description of what he needs.

Jim Yergin  

Jim;

I stand corrected. Thank you. I was thinking of the interruption circuit.

[bamfordsgarage]

What a great forum!

 

Thanks everyone for your help. 

[Dodgeb4ya]

I've always run my OD's  on 90W. 90,000 plus miles no issues ever. Will continue with this weight type of oil. So have all my buddies and their cars. No planetary seize ups. Use what works for you.

[Young Ed]

I've always run my OD's  on 90W. 90,000 plus miles no issues ever. Will continue with this weight type of oil. So have all my buddies and their cars. No planetary seize ups. Use what works for you.

 

Us too.

[Joe Flanagan]

If you had a momentary switch that was normally closed, couldn't you use that and eliminate the relay? Jim, didn't you use a normally open switch because you couldn't find one that was closed? I'm about to install a kickdown switch in my own car, which is why I ask. I looked into it some time ago and as I recall, I found a closed switch at Radio Shack, though I had to look pretty hard. Practically everything I saw was open. I was under the impression that using a relay reverses the function of a normally open momentary switch and if you could use one that was normally closed, it would make a relay unnecessary (not referring, of course, to the OD relay that sends power to the solenoid).

[Jim Yergin]

Joe,

If your momentary switch is normally closed, you could use it without an additional relay. You would push in the switch and lift your foot off the gas at the same time and the O/D should disengage. Once you released the switch, the car would remain out of O/D until you lifted your foot off the gas again.

I use the locking relay as my "switch" because the fluid drive shift lever switch I have is normally open.

Jim Yergin

[Jim Yergin]

Chris,

Check out this site regarding using a Radio Shack relay mounted in the original relay case.

 

http://www.studebakerparts.com/studebakerparts/store/s/html/pages/relay.html

 

Jim Yergin