1952 B3b with Cummins 4bt

[1952B3b23]

Well Gentlemen i've finally pulled the trigger on what i had been kicking around for awhile, putting a Cummins 4bt in my '52. I purchased the motor last week off a local diesel shop and i heard it run and runs like a champ. I plan on throwing a 5 speed manual trans behind it, either a Getrag G360 or the NV4500. This is going to be a slow going process while i collect all the necessary parts and most importantly the money to get the stuff. Stay tuned for more...

-Chris

[1952B3b23]

I have since removed the large bell housing off the back of the motor. I think this mated up to some type of direct drive unit for a generator. Now i will be able to get the adapter plate to attach the automotive tranny. Heres a few pics of what the bellhousing looked like and what the block looked like underneath.

-Chris

[wayfarer]

You might want to sign up on this forum...

[Apittslife]

I have since removed the large bell housing off the back of the motor. I think this mated up to some type of direct drive unit for a generator. Now i will be able to get the adapter plate to attach the automotive tranny. Heres a few pics of what the bellhousing looked like and what the block looked like underneath.

-Chris

From what I have read, You do not want to use a diesel motor that was used for a generator as the cams are of a different grind & will not work for automotive use, as a generator is either idling or full throttle.

The adapter you have is most likely for an allison transmission whether Manual or Automatic.

The Site wayfarer told you about, is a very informative site with very knowlegeable people there, Just as there are very knowlegeable people here!

[1952B3b23]

From what I have read, You do not want to use a diesel motor that was used for a generator as the cams are of a different grind & will not work for automotive use, as a generator is either idling or full throttle.

The adapter you have is most likely for an allison transmission whether Manual or Automatic.

The Site wayfarer told you about, is a very informative site with very knowlegeable people there, Just as there are very knowlegeable people here!

Hmmmm thats very interesting i wasnt aware of that. I actually am a member on the 4bt swap forum. I had read on there that they require a different type of governor because a generator would have a load type governor, which is a different kind then what was used on automotive applications. I guess i really need to get to the bottom of this. If its not going to work i may need to sell it and start over again. Thanks for the input though.

-Chris

[Apittslife]

Hi Chris,

I am not going to say that I know what I am saying, I am too old to fall into that trap, it is only what I had read, & I may have mis-read it?

Here is a snippit of the Artical I read, it is located here, if you would like to read the entire thread:

http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/group.php?do=discuss&group=&discussionid=429

4BT:

Used in light commercial apps, and stationary power equipment. It's basically a 6BT with 2 cylinders missing, so pistons, valves, etc, etc, are readily available. Also, it's practically a bolt in for the 6BT, only more compact. Several variations have been available over the years. 4B, 4BT, 4BTI, 4BTA, rotory pumps, inline pumps, and single speed IP's were used, so you gotta know what your looking at before you commit to buy!!!

The 3.9L/4BT Cummins is an engine in the same family as the 5.9L Cummins turbodiesels. The 3.9L/4B is an inline four-cylinder turbodiesel that was popular for many step van applications including bread vans and other commercial vehicles. This engine is also used in various industrial and construction applications. With a cylinder bore of 4.02 inches (102 mm) and a piston stroke of 4.72 inches (120 mm), the engine had a wet weight of 745 pounds (338 kg). In recent years it produced 130 hp (97 kW) and 355 lb·ft (481 N·m) of torque.

Pro's, Every good thing that can be said about the 6BT applies here. It's about the same weight and physical size as a Ford 390 FE,[only a little taller] so it's swap friendly. The Bosch in-line IP model can be tuned [with bolt on parts] to produce CRAZY power #'s, and it would not be un-reasonable to think it could achieve 30 mpg+ in a light weight rod.

Con's, They tend to be expensive to buy, and can be difficult to find. Be carefull about which model you get, know what your getting, and avoid the "service model" IP like the plague... It's designed to only opperate at one continuous RPM in a stationary application.

Bottom line for a hot rod application:

Who could ask for anything more? One of the very best hot rod diesels out there.

[Merle Coggins]

Industrial bell housings are pretty universal. It's hard to say what was connected to the back of that engine. When you heard it run did it idle, or did it start and run at a steady 1800 RPM? If it ran at idle and could be throttled up then It wasn't in a genset application.

Merle

[1952B3b23]

Hi Chris,

I am not going to say that I know what I am saying, I am too old to fall into that trap, it is only what I had read, & I may have mis-read it?

Here is a snippit of the Artical I read, it is located here, if you would like to read the entire thread:

http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/group.php?do=discuss&group=&discussionid=429

4BT:

Used in light commercial apps, and stationary power equipment. It's basically a 6BT with 2 cylinders missing, so pistons, valves, etc, etc, are readily available. Also, it's practically a bolt in for the 6BT, only more compact. Several variations have been available over the years. 4B, 4BT, 4BTI, 4BTA, rotory pumps, inline pumps, and single speed IP's were used, so you gotta know what your looking at before you commit to buy!!!

The 3.9L/4BT Cummins is an engine in the same family as the 5.9L Cummins turbodiesels. The 3.9L/4B is an inline four-cylinder turbodiesel that was popular for many step van applications including bread vans and other commercial vehicles. This engine is also used in various industrial and construction applications. With a cylinder bore of 4.02 inches (102 mm) and a piston stroke of 4.72 inches (120 mm), the engine had a wet weight of 745 pounds (338 kg). In recent years it produced 130 hp (97 kW) and 355 lb·ft (481 N·m) of torque.

Pro's, Every good thing that can be said about the 6BT applies here. It's about the same weight and physical size as a Ford 390 FE,[only a little taller] so it's swap friendly. The Bosch in-line IP model can be tuned [with bolt on parts] to produce CRAZY power #'s, and it would not be un-reasonable to think it could achieve 30 mpg+ in a light weight rod.

Con's, They tend to be expensive to buy, and can be difficult to find. Be carefull about which model you get, know what your getting, and avoid the "service model" IP like the plague... It's designed to only opperate at one continuous RPM in a stationary application.

Bottom line for a hot rod application:

Who could ask for anything more? One of the very best hot rod diesels out there.

I first want to say thank you for being interested in this and giving me a bunch of great info!! One of the main reasons that im so fond of the Cummins and the idea of putting the 4bt in the '52 is that i own an '03 with a 6bt and i have nothing but great things to say about that motor. Ive also been a long time subscriber to Diesel Power magazine and have seen the amount of power potential these motors have. Even the 4bt with a VE injection pump is capable of putting down decent power. Which would be more than enough to whip my '52 half ton right around town. Also as you mentioned the 4 cylinder version is basically the 6 without two cylinders. So parts are readily available and not to expensive. As for purchasing this motor it was pretty expensive, and hard to find. I got lucky and found one 10 mins from my house at a diesel repair shop but that was after searching Craigslist and ebay for months.

I posed the question about the cams being different over on the 4bt swap forum and one fellow came back and said that that wouldnt prevent it from being used in an auto application. If thats correct or not im not sure but im going to contact a local guy whos a Cummins guru and ask him about it. I'll report back with my findings. I appreciate you bringing that up though so i can get to the bottom of it.

-Chris

[1952B3b23]

Industrial bell housings are pretty universal. It's hard to say what was connected to the back of that engine. When you heard it run did it idle, or did it start and run at a steady 1800 RPM? If it ran at idle and could be throttled up then It wasn't in a genset application.

Merle

When i heard it run it fired up and ran at idle and we were able to throttle it up a few times before shutting down. So this is good news for me, thanks.

-Chris

[1952B3b23]

Santa clause also brought me a 1992 Dodge D250 with a 5 speed manual transmission (Getrag G360) and a 12 valve Cummins. So i will be using this tranny for the 4bt swap. I heard that these old Getrag's had some problems thats why dodge switched to the NV4500 5 speed in '94. But i got to drive it home (40 mins) and it shifted like a champ no grinding and the clutch didnt act up. I heard that if you overfill this tranny with an extra quart of oil it works great. Im also going with the fact that the 4bt with added power will produce about the same amount of torque or less than the stock 12 valve (400 ft-lbs) so it shouldnt be an issue. I heard the real issues where with people who towed heavy loads a lot with those trucks and thats not going to be the case with my '52. I must say that it was a blast to drive since ive never driven a Cummins with a manual transmission before.

-Chris

[Apittslife]

Hello again Chris,

Congrats on your find!

I am really wanting to go with the 4-BT as well for my '48 Project.

Everyone putting V-8's in their trucks, & I like to be different ( Thats why I like my old Dodge )!

[1952B3b23]

Hello again Chris,

Congrats on your find!

I am really wanting to go with the 4-BT as well for my '48 Project.

Everyone putting V-8's in their trucks, & I like to be different ( Thats why I like my old Dodge )!

I totally agree, i know that at least around my parts i'll be the only one with a Cummins in my '52!! I have a long road ahead of me but im sure i'll learn a lot and hopefully be able to pass on my knowledge to other people who are interested/ would like to do a diesel swap. I had my heart set on having a 4bt and i talked myself in and out of it a bunch of times due to the $$ involved. But then i realized that if i did go gas which is much less expensive i still wouldn't of fulfilled my dream of the 4bt so i just had to do it. If it takes me weeks, months, or years longer because of the funding and work at least i know once im done i built something i've always wanted. With that said i think if you really want to go diesel you should do it. Heck maybe i can show you what not to do so your build will go more smoothly lol

-Chris

[1952B3b23]

I called up Cummins and was able to determine that the motor has a VE type injection pump and was not used in a genset application. This engine was for construction applications, probably skid steers or something of that nature. So i think i dodged a bullet there.

[1952B3b23]

I am still up in the air about what route to take with the front suspension. I don't know if i should keep the stock set up and do a disk brake conversion, or if i should attempt going with IFS? Any input would be much appreciated. Thanks guys

-Chris

[Apittslife]

I think it would depend upon the condition of your current suspension, what you want out of it, & most importantly will it handle the weight of the 4-BT?

Disk brakes are pretty much a necessity with road speeds topping 65+ MPH. & again the weight of your truck. Sorry, But front drums are pure evil!

[1952B3b23]

Thats what im worried about i dont know if the stock setup will handle the weight. When my '52 was in driving condition the front suspension handled decently and seemed pretty tight. If i was going to keep it i would rebuild it, add an extra leaf to the springs, new shocks, and disk brakes. I dont know if anyone has ever kept the stock front suspension when installing a V8? Im also thinking power steering may be needed due to the added weight of the 4bt.

[Frank Elder]

Thats what im worried about i dont know if the stock setup will handle the weight. When my '52 was in driving condition the front suspension handled decently and seemed pretty tight. If i was going to keep it i would rebuild it, add an extra leaf to the springs, new shocks, and disk brakes. I dont know if anyone has ever kept the stock front suspension when installing a V8? Im also thinking power steering may be needed due to the added weight of the 4bt.

You do realize that a flathead 6 weighs more than a 318/360 or 440 right.....? I'm not sure how much the little 4bt weighs, but I doubt if it is over the 6....

[HanksB3B]

1952B3B23,

I’m not exactly why you decided to replace the stock L6 with a Cummins Diesel. With my very basic skills I think it’s a big bite to chew and would not have gone that route. Be prepared to do a whole lot of work. At this point you could cut your losses and go a more traditional route, but if it’s what you really want go for it! “You only live once”.

Back a ways there was some guy that put a Corvette engine and front suspension and I think it was a Jaguar rear end. It was very evident that this guy knew what he was doing, had the skillset and the big bucks to pull it off. It turned out “to die for”.

Because you are changing engines, unless you want to build a suicide machine you will need to do it right, take your truck down to the frame and at a bare minimum provide front disc brakes and (because of the added weight) independent front suspension. A Dakota Clip as many guys here have done successfully or one of those FatMan Kits.

Personally, I’d hate to cut my firewall and have seen very few jobs that looked better than a pile of crushed beer cans or scrap sheetmetal welded together. Not saying it can’t be done (I’m sure the Corvette guy did it right) but there’s a lot to it not to mention locating and installing a new dual master brake cylinder.

I like your Idea of using a Getrag 5 speed transmission. I’m only familiar with them from my BMW and would like to know what vehicles G360’s and NV4500’s come from. I don’t mean to be discouraging and you seem realistic when you said “This is going to be a slow going process while i collect all the necessary parts and most importantly the money to get the stuff.”

I love the simplicity of our Pilothouse trucks but understand why someone would want something more than a 45mph tractor with a bench seat. For me, I’d be very happy with my L6 engine, a five speed transmission, a 3.73 Dana Rear end, independent front suspension, and disc brakes ay all four corners.

I wish you all the luck, patience, time and cash you’ll need to pull this off.

An ambitious project,

Hank

[wallytoo]

You do realize that a flathead 6 weighs more than a 318/360 or 440 right.....? I'm not sure how much the little 4bt weighs, but I doubt if it is over the 6....

The 3.9L/4B is an inline four-cylinder turbodiesel that was popular for many step van applications including bread vans and other commercial vehicles. the engine had a wet weight of 745 pounds (338 kg).

the flat-6 is heavy, but i don't believe the flat-6 weighs 750 lbs.

[Young Ed]

the flat-6 is heavy, but i don't believe the flat-6 weighs 750 lbs.

It depends on what that includes of course but I believe I've read with the bellhousing the flathead weighs about 600.

[Frank Elder]

the flat-6 is heavy, but i don't believe the flat-6 weighs 750 lbs.

No, it sure does not:eek::eek:

[1952B3b23]

You do realize that a flathead 6 weighs more than a 318/360 or 440 right.....? I'm not sure how much the little 4bt weighs, but I doubt if it is over the 6....

Nope i wasn't aware of that, but thanks for pointing that out.

[Frank Elder]

Nope i wasn't aware of that, but thanks for pointing that out.

I'm sure not going to quote it as that little 4bt again....

[1952B3b23]

HanksB3B,

I appreciate your input and don't regard your comments as discouragement at all. The way i have been thinking about this project is that i know it is going to be a huge undertaking involving a lot of time and money. I feel that if i take my time and go through everything thoroughly i should be able to make it through with out any major set backs. I have no timeline of when i want this to be done so i am certainly not going to rush it. I am trying to be as systematic about it as i can and plan it very well so that i don't end up with a "suicide trap" just like you said. That is why ive been talking to as many people as i can about it and picking their brains. Im also not sure that this is going to be a whole heck of a lot different then the other types of engine swaps people have done into the old PH's. The main difference is that im going with a diesel motor instead of gas. I understand that this itself introduces a bunch of unknowns but i think its workable. I actually spoke to Fatman Fab today about an IFS kit for what im trying to do. They said they could set me up with the same kind of kit they use for big block chevy applications. Which the guy on the phone told me the big block chevy weighs close to the same as the 4bt.

The Getrag G360 was used from '89-'93 in Cummins powered 5 speed manual transmission trucks. I actually just purchased a truck for parts a '92 Dodge Cummins D250 with a Getrag G360 to put behind my 4bt. The NV4500 was used from '94-'98 in the dodge Cummins powered trucks as well as the V10's.

My basic reasoning for wanting to go through all this work and expense is to have something that no one else has. I love the idea of being different and i think having a diesel powered pilot house is a good way to do it . I have a really big passion/obsession with diesel motors, all my vehicles are diesel powered. Thanks for all the comments, its greatly appreciated.

-Chris

[1952B3b23]

I'm sure not going to quote it as that little 4bt again....

Haha yea Cummins believes in the words HEAVY DUTY.