p24-1953 Posted March 1, 2012 Report Posted March 1, 2012 We still can’t get the car to fire up. Here is what has been done. New wiring harness NOS distributor new plug & wires new coil points cap and rotor rebuilt carb. Fully charged battery. We are getting 6 volts to the coil. All individual parts test okay. We are getting a spark at the plugs but it is weak. Prior to the fire I had a compression of 110 at each cylinder, now there is very little, It sat for 3 weeks with no oil in it as the engine was being repainted and rewired, We have place a little oil in each cylinder thinking that since its dry we are not getting enough compression for it to fire properly. Still no luck, it just turns over never fires. I’m stumped, and about to get it towed back home. I have had great luck with this mechanic in the past but it appears I am on the bottom of the list to work on so it only gets worked on when they can, so a diagnosis that should take a day, ends up taking several days. So frustrated. any one have any off the wall thoughts to what might be going on? Quote
Plymouthy Adams Posted March 1, 2012 Report Posted March 1, 2012 seeing as how it has set..and the number of revolutions this engine has made in you attempt to start the car...oil has proabably wash all lubrication from the piston and as such you have lessened the overall compression..do put about a tablespoon of oil in each cylinder and turn it over a few times to see if the compression will increase to allow you proper combustion for starting...do not attemp to actually start until the cylinders are lubed properly..as for the weak firel..one trains of thought is that the starter could have also gotten overheated and drawing excess current thus robbing your power to fire the ignition .. try checking the spark with a sepeate power source connected to the coil..either another battery or even a charger...if at wits end, have it towed to Elko.. Quote
busycoupe Posted March 1, 2012 Report Posted March 1, 2012 You say you put in a new coil. Did you use a 6 volt coil? If by accident you used a 12V coil with an internal resistor you would in effect have only 3V generating the spark. Dave Quote
p24-1953 Posted March 1, 2012 Author Report Posted March 1, 2012 i dont understand how guys go for years with finishing a project car. i go for 6 months with out driving it and i'm getting the shakes just thinking about it not being in my garage. Quote
p24-1953 Posted March 1, 2012 Author Report Posted March 1, 2012 You say you put in a new coil. Did you use a 6 volt coil? If by accident you used a 12V coil with an internal resistor you would in effect have only 3V generating the spark.Dave we have tried both a new 6v coil and the original 6v coil they both test fine. that is a good thought though. Quote
Plymouthy Adams Posted March 1, 2012 Report Posted March 1, 2012 you get the lower applied voltage after the coil has reached operating temperature..the built in coils are thermostatic and thus have full voltage applied at first run of the ignition..once started, the current flowing through the coil due to the reisistance will quickly bring the coil up to temp and as it reaches full temps tapers back the applied voltage...granted, if for some reason you are failing to start for reason other than the coil during the time the ignition switch is on the current will flow if the points are closed and could quickly result in loss of fire power..the best thing to do here again is ensure when coil is cold that the secondary voltage is crisp and blue if so, then odds are you may have the wrong coil..second..use an ohm meter, primary should be below 2.0 ohms and average between 1.4 and 1.7 ohms..being a new coil. get the part number and brand name off of it and post here for identification.. Quote
Plymouthy Adams Posted March 1, 2012 Report Posted March 1, 2012 Yancey, in all seriousness if you want, bring it to Elko..will be pleased to assist you with the car... Quote
Plymouthy Adams Posted March 1, 2012 Report Posted March 1, 2012 i dont understand how guys go for years with finishing a project car. i go for 6 months with out driving it and i'm getting the shakes just thinking about it not being in my garage. that's an easy answer..gotta want to drive them first..mine when finish usually set forever betwen going on the road...the fun for me is what I do to make them road ready Quote
p24-1953 Posted March 1, 2012 Author Report Posted March 1, 2012 Yancey, in all seriousness if you want, bring it to Elko..will be pleased to assist you with the car... The mechanic asked me to check back in tommorow he would devote time to the car today, if for some reason he cant get it to fire, i may take you up on that offer. Quote
Plymouthy Adams Posted March 1, 2012 Report Posted March 1, 2012 fair enough...you have my phone number.. Quote
JIPJOBXX Posted March 1, 2012 Report Posted March 1, 2012 What kind of spark do you get from egnition wire to the spark plug? Is it nice and bright and pops? Are you sure that your distributor is in correctly for the timming of the engine? I would start at making sure that the rotor is pointing or about to point at the number one spark plug rotor cap wire. You can take all the plugs out and just rotate the engine by using the fan belt for this procedure. You might be 180 degrees out of order also as the distibutor can be set in place that much. You can set your distributor by using the timming mark on the crank pulley but it can either be in the right place or like I said 180 degrees out. Good luck! Quote
Plymouthy Adams Posted March 1, 2012 Report Posted March 1, 2012 it can also be totally out if the oil pump was ever pulled and not properly indexed..a problem I see with a majority of the flatheads..whereas on reinstall the #1 lead could be anywhere on the cap and firing order taken from there..and I have even had folks I have assisted ask me not to pull the pump and index proper...poor arguement as they have now called in for help and down the road if they needed more help..out of order/improper index the next person will be as far off in left field as they are now...and that is all I got to say about that... Quote
Jim Shepard Posted March 1, 2012 Report Posted March 1, 2012 it can also be totally out if the oil pump was ever pulled and not properly indexed..a problem I see with a majority of the flatheads..whereas on reinstall the #1 lead could be anywhere on the cap and firing order taken from there..and I have even had folks I have assisted ask me not to pull the pump and index proper...poor arguement as they have now called in for help and down the road if they needed more help..out of order/improper index the next person will be as far off in left field as they are now...and that is all I got to say about that... Tim, please explain "indexing.":) Quote
TodFitch Posted March 1, 2012 Report Posted March 1, 2012 Tim, please explain "indexing.":) Oil pump is driven off of the camshaft. The gears on the oil pump will mesh in a lot of different positions. But the distributor is driven off the end of the oil pump shaft, so unless the oil pump is "indexed" (has its gears meshed in only one position) the distributor will not be aligned where you expect and the position of the #1 spark plug wire will not be correct. Quote
Jim Shepard Posted March 2, 2012 Report Posted March 2, 2012 Oil pump is driven off of the camshaft. The gears on the oil pump will mesh in a lot of different positions. But the distributor is driven off the end of the oil pump shaft, so unless the oil pump is "indexed" (has its gears meshed in only one position) the distributor will not be aligned where you expect and the position of the #1 spark plug wire will not be correct. So, how do you do this? When I put my pump back in it just slipped in with no issues. Are you saying it could be in incorrectly? How do I know if it's in correctly? Quote
aero3113 Posted March 2, 2012 Report Posted March 2, 2012 It sounds like Tim is on to something,the oil pump does need to be indexed. If I remember correctly you line the slot in the end of the pump with the mounting holes and then turn the pump one tooth counter clockwise. You must keep the pump in this position and have the rotor near the 7 o'clock position and it should slide right in. You may have to turn the rotor slightly to align the pump to get it to engage. I may be slightly off on the procedure so check your maintenance manual (hopefully you or your mechanic has one?) Quote
54Illinois Posted March 2, 2012 Report Posted March 2, 2012 I knew I read this somewhere..From Motor's. Quote
Jim Shepard Posted March 2, 2012 Report Posted March 2, 2012 Ok, I didn't do any of this when I put my pump back in. In order to go back and do it right, is it necessary to drain the oil? Quote
TodFitch Posted March 2, 2012 Report Posted March 2, 2012 Ok, I didn't do any of this when I put my pump back in. In order to go back and do it right, is it necessary to drain the oil? No. Quote
Don Coatney Posted March 2, 2012 Report Posted March 2, 2012 The only reason for indexing the oil pump is for some consistancy from one engine to the next. It is possible to make any engine run and run well without indexing the pump. With the engine at TDC with the #1 piston at the top of the compression stroke make note of the rotor position. Then plug the #1 spark plug wire into the corrosponding hole in the distributor cap. Follow suit with plug wires #5-4-6-3-2 in a clockwise direction. You should now be static timed close enough to start the engine. Once it starts you can adjust the timing using a timing light. Your mechanic should know this. I hope you are not paying him by the hour. How low is your compression? When you did your compression check did you use a "screw in the spark plug hole" gauge? If so how long was the part that screws in? An engine should not lose much compression by just sitting and not running. When you use the starter motor to spin the engine does it sound as if there is any compression? I suspect that if you used a compression gauge with a long stem that youy may have bent all of your intake valves. Follow this link. http://www430.pair.com/p15d24/mopar_forum/showthread.php?t=21259&highlight=compression Quote
p24-1953 Posted March 2, 2012 Author Report Posted March 2, 2012 well heres the up date.... First of all the oil pump has not been removed from the car, so those ideas are out. the dist. is set the correct way. We are gettign fuel.. The compression went up after the oil was introduced and turned over by hand a few times. I stoped by and asked him what happens when you try starting it with a 12v battery, we tried and nothing. in fact with a 12 volt battery in it when it is cranked over the amount of spark is so small at the spark plug you can hold the exposed cable end and not get hurt. Apparently we have a voltage drop somewhere between the coil and the points. we have 6 volts going into the coil, but barely have a volt at the points. No I am not paying him hourly.... what im paying him is yet to be determined, i hope he sticks to his orginal estimate. Quote
Plymouthy Adams Posted March 2, 2012 Report Posted March 2, 2012 now that you got the short cleared at the input of the distributor..go to the secondary side of the points and using the ohm meter ensure the contact goes to ground effectively...again so as to be sure you are still going in the right direction...disconnect the wire to the distributor and with key on short the coil post to the distributor to ground, should pop a blue flame when opened.. Quote
JBNeal Posted March 2, 2012 Report Posted March 2, 2012 I'm a tad inexperienced with the goings-on inside the distributor, but I had a no-start condition once with weak spark, replaced the condenser, and problem solved. Quote
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