Frank Elder Posted January 24, 2011 Report Posted January 24, 2011 Don't forget M could also stand for Massey Harris.....but it probably doesn't:eek: Quote
Alshere59 Posted January 24, 2011 Report Posted January 24, 2011 thanks, al! looks like the "M23 or 230" engines are out of the Dodge D and W truck series, although the guy who lent it to me said he ripped it out of a passenger car... but that doesn't mean too much, does it. moose, you're right, as i said earlier i kind of copy the intake board member bloodyknuckles uses on his engine, only that this is most likely supposed to be an independent runner setup in the end, without the collector under the carbs. the headers will look very much like the ones on russian flatty above, only with a smoother curve that will allow me service operation on the valves. my engine bay offers much more room to the side than his, though it gets a little cosy for the carbs between the horns... With three carbs and an open plenum would you be able to run progressive linkage with the center opening then the end carbs? Just a trivia question as I was thinking of doing that for gas mileage. Not even sure it would help with mileage. Quote
moose Posted January 24, 2011 Report Posted January 24, 2011 I'm kinda partial to the over-head carburetor set-up;) moose, you're right, as i said earlier i kind of copy the intake board member bloodyknuckles uses on his engine, only that this is most likely supposed to be an independent runner setup in the end, #1 is BK's, #2 is the first one I made, #3 is for a long block in Australia, #4&5 will go on my A someday Quote
moose Posted January 25, 2011 Report Posted January 25, 2011 (edited) Frank, I think the logs are necessary when using the stock down-draft Carters, because they are usually gonna be in a progressive set-up. It'd be too much carburetion otherwise, I think. The only one without the balance tubes was made for the Mikunis. These came off a motorcycle with no balance tube. I didn't figure that it would make much difference on those. Putting a Carter for each tube might cause a problem with the intake pulses being un-evenly spaced. Firing order--- 1,5,3,6,2,4 tube 1, 1---2-1---2-1---2-1---2- oddly spaced tube 2, --3--4--3--4--3--4--3--4 evenly spaced tube 3, -5-6---5-6---5-6---5-6-- oddly spaced Fred, It might make no difference at all. I say give it a try. You can always change it after. Edited January 25, 2011 by moose___ Quote
Frank Elder Posted January 25, 2011 Report Posted January 25, 2011 Thanks moose, I could have sworn I sent you an email, you know private communication:confused: Quote
Cpt.Fred Posted January 25, 2011 Author Report Posted January 25, 2011 (edited) hey moose, that's an interesting thought, i have to think about that. so far i didn't see any problems because i just wanted that the pulses into the primary pipes were unresisted and the cylinders firing 90° after one another were exhaling into different collectors, like on the fentons, but with equal length tubes and the correct diameters to create a sucking effect. i do not hope for a big effect on this engine anyway, actually i would be quite happy if the gas mileage would stay where it was before and there would maybe be a little increase in torque. the setup is supposed to sit on a bigger flattie one day, which will then have a different cam more suitable to the setup, bigger valves and higher compression. one of these days;) edit: linkage will not be progressive, since it won't make sense on an independant runner setup. if i would put a balance tube in there, wouldn't there be a vacuum problem then? i just talked to a friend who constructs engines and he said the pulses were ok like this, as long as there is at least one interception. not nice but ok on a low rpm engine like this, he said. Edited January 25, 2011 by Cpt.Fred Quote
greg g Posted January 25, 2011 Report Posted January 25, 2011 Fred, a note on your fuel mileage concern. My engine a 56 230, is equipped with 2 carters on a fenton manifold, .040 head and deck machining, .030 overbore, stock cam and single exhaust (2 in ID all the way with a high flow muffler) actually gets better mileage tha the stock 218 did. It got 17mpg in most driving conditions. The current engine gets 17 just driving around and 19/20 on highway road trips. I attribute most of that to increased compression, as nothing else was changed inthe drive train. Quote
Cpt.Fred Posted January 25, 2011 Author Report Posted January 25, 2011 you're right, greg, the whole point of this system should be to gain more efficiency in the fuel burning process, and i was told a well tuned independant runner should actually save me some gas... but then again, what do i really know about my valves and stuff... brings to mind i still have to do the compression tests! Quote
martybose Posted January 25, 2011 Report Posted January 25, 2011 you're right, greg, the whole point of this system should be to gain more efficiency in the fuel burning process, and i was told a well tuned independant runner should actually save me some gas... but then again, what do i really know about my valves and stuff... brings to mind i still have to do the compression tests! Be careful with that last!! I can state categorically that with an Edmunds head it is possible to bend valves by using the wrong spark plug adapter! Marty Quote
Cpt.Fred Posted February 15, 2011 Author Report Posted February 15, 2011 Whoo-hoo! welding has begun, i'll take some pics this evening! the intake should be done by tomorrow. afterwards, we'll mount it in the car and then tack the first tubes of the headers, so that we now the exact angle and position the collectors exit the engine bay. the rest will be done on the "mounting block" back in gobi's shop. there will be braided flex tubes at the end of the collectors and and 2 inserts for oxigen sensors, so we can tune the carbs while driving with an electronic setup another friend built last year. it worked great on the GAZ flattie, so it should be fine with this one. here's the carbs, the outer ones freshly rebuilt, the middle one i rebuilt about 3500 miles ago, but i guess i should take it apart once more, just to be sure. it leaks a little at the top, so i'll try the sandpaper-on-glas method... the dual exhaust will be really tricky to build, but we'll get there. the only thing i'm not sure about is the exact differences between the carbs, they all have different codes (like D6A2 and so on) but look exactly the same... any ideas? different jets? that would be a problem... best, fred Quote
Cpt.Fred Posted February 15, 2011 Author Report Posted February 15, 2011 ok, here are some pics now... the flanges, fresh from the laser cutter: making all three carbs line up nicely: reducing the intake tubes a little at the flanges: fitting the centering sockets that will be stuck into the ports before welding things up: tacking the tubes: i am so happy to have a friend who can do all that for me... still have to find a way to thank him, but i guess there might be a few motorcycle engine parts he'll need in the next month that might find their way to his shop all by themselves. tomorrow we try if everything fits on my engine and then the welding can be finished. also i must think of a way to seal everything in the end, maybe aluminium coating? Quote
38Plyroadking Posted February 15, 2011 Report Posted February 15, 2011 Radical intake...I love it. Will that fit under the hood? Quote
aero3113 Posted February 15, 2011 Report Posted February 15, 2011 Very nice! Looks like 90 deg. plug wires will fit no problem, might be tight under the hood? Quote
Cpt.Fred Posted February 15, 2011 Author Report Posted February 15, 2011 the air cleaners sit snugly between the dual horns, and there is no problem with the plug wires, at least not according to my measurement... you can see it on the photo with the card board template above. we'll see it tomorrow, when we fit it into the car to check everything before the final welding. it's a tight one, much tighter than in bloodyknuckles' engine bay, but we'll make it somehow. the equal lenght headers however will be another story... i am really curious how this whole thing turns out. Quote
Reg Evans Posted February 15, 2011 Report Posted February 15, 2011 The M230 engine came from a 59 Dodge truck. i got a 23" engine block from a friend that we want to use as an assembly support.we still have to measure everything once again, but i guess it must be all the same, in matters of intake and exhaust flanges and bolts. can anyone say where this block came out of? some 50's mopar, but what exactly? here's some pics: Quote
greg g Posted February 15, 2011 Report Posted February 15, 2011 Looks great Fred. Question, is that your block it he picture or a test mule?? I ask because the crank flange is drilled for 8 holes. I was under the impression that Plymouth 201 cranks were 4 hole. My 56 engine was drilled for 6, I thought only the fluid drive cars were fitted with 8 hole flanges. Are you going to put in and equalizer box between the carbs and runners or just bolt the carbs to the flanges??? I would give some thought to doing some sort of intermediary between the carbs and the intake. This will make balancing the carbs a bit easier as it will enable the cylinders to share the intake charge across the carbs, and will also give you a place for a common vacuum source for wipers and such. Also it would allow you to do dual carbs if you find that running 3 over barb the engine. This could be anything from a sheet metal box to a piece of tubing to join the runners to a common air flow. Just thinking out loud, and you and your friends may have discussed this and decided against it. Quote
Cpt.Fred Posted February 16, 2011 Author Report Posted February 16, 2011 hi greg, the block in the pictures is the M230 block we use as a mounting device. the setup will be an independant runner style intake, no connection between the carbs. we do that to enhance torque in lower rpm and to avoid vaccum shortage... i am aware that it might turn out crappy and has to be changed, but i want to at least try it. plus it works on motorcycles, so why not on my car...? i just came back from the garage were we put the intake on the block where it belongs and it fits perfectly! also we tacked the first tubes of the headers. the tubes are going to be a little wild, but i will be able to use a double action fuel pump and to change the oil pump if necessary. i doubt i will be able to adjust valves without taking the headers off the block, though... Quote
Merle Coggins Posted February 17, 2011 Report Posted February 17, 2011 Looks pretty cool, but there doesn't look like there's much room for air filters. Quote
Cpt.Fred Posted February 17, 2011 Author Report Posted February 17, 2011 there are very small ones that fit, but most likely i will have a bracket built to move the horns a little farther apart. then i can use nice classic looking ones. next stop is headers and linkage... Quote
greg g Posted February 17, 2011 Report Posted February 17, 2011 Interested to see how you are going to run yout throttle linkage. Looking cool so far. Quote
Cpt.Fred Posted February 17, 2011 Author Report Posted February 17, 2011 Interested to see how you are going to run yout throttle linkage.. that makes 2 of us... Quote
greg g Posted February 17, 2011 Report Posted February 17, 2011 Does you stock linkage to to a bell crak on the top of the engine or the side, and if the side Pass or Drivers? Quote
Cpt.Fred Posted February 17, 2011 Author Report Posted February 17, 2011 i do not understand completely... we are planning to use the original pivot fixed to the block under the wire loom. we'll have to turn it 90° since i turned the carbs 90° as well... it'll be somehow similar to the linkage on board member bloodyknuckles' car, but i want to make the chokes work on all three carbs, also the hand throttle control on the dash. i have to find adjustable linkage swivals and then we start building something. it will be best i buy them here in germany to avoid shipping delay and fees... Quote
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