broken manifold stud

[p24-1953]

well i started working again this morning after letting the last two bolts sit over night, and on the first try "SNAP" i broke the last stud off flash with the manifold flange.

the next to last one i can not get a socket on and my wrench is starting to round over the edges. how do i get this one off. can i cut it off?

What do i need to do about the last one? i CAN'T get a drill in there to drill it out. can i secure the manifold with out using it?

any thoughts? i guess im going to go buy some ATF/ and acetone. liquid wrench, wd40, and pb blaster are not working.

Edited July 3, 2010 by p24-1953

[Plymouthy Adams]

to assure non leaking imanifold assembly, one musthave al stud/bolts effectively torqued down...the removal of the broken stud wil cause you to either center drill with accuracy..start with a very small bit and work up to a suitable size bit for an easy out..or...I would source a torch to heat the broken insert cherry read to break the rust bond..then the unit when cooled, the extractor inserted and I recommend a square drive extractor..it should come out rather easily...the other nut sounds as though the nut has been rusted for quite some time, again a cycle of heat will do wonders, the rounded edges however may require the reverse fluted socket of that of an extrator to remove the nut..these are sold by Sears..they are remarable devices..

Edited July 3, 2010 by Tim Adams

[p24-1953]

edit that first post it should say i "CANT" get a drill to it.

[p24-1953]

tim . could i cut that one nut off with a dremal or something? it the top one closets to the cab

[Plymouthy Adams]

if you have room, you an cut with a dremel, RA grinder or even use a nut cracker...as long as you have room..on the broken stud, blind hole or open to the block?..torch seems to be my best answer...blow if blind heat drill and extract if through hole...if and when the manifold is off the engine, will you then have access to the broken stud?

Edited July 3, 2010 by Tim Adams

[TodFitch]

If the stud broke off even with the manifold, then deal with it after the manifold is off. It should be sitting proud of the block and you could probably get a vise grip or equivalent on it to rotate it once you apply heat or penetrating lubricant to it so that it is unstuck from the block.

On previous forum posts people have suggested heating stuck fasteners and then touching them with wax (candle or equivalent). That is supposed to draw some wax (lubricant) into the microscopic spaces between the threads and allow you to remove the fastener. I haven't tried it but it sounds like it might work.

PS: On my engine the parts book calls for brass nuts on all manifold studs. They won't stick. Or rather if they stick the metal bond between the nut and the stud is weak and the brass portion will give allowing removal. I think the later ones are supposed to be brass too but a fancy design that works with special washers. If someone has replaced the brass with steel on your car it would explain your difficulties.

Edited July 3, 2010 by TodFitch

[Frank Elder]

Brass nuts are a very good idea on these particular studs, also when you torque them down upon reinstallation dont forget to check the torque for a couple heat cycles...

[Flatie46]

Yep, heat is what you need. If you cut the head off the one thats trying to round off then pull the manifold so you can get at 'em better. Then after a good heat cycle you could weld a heavy nut to the stud, let it cool and soak with penatrant then turn it out or use the reverse fluted socketts Tim mentioned. They work very well, good luck.

[Jerry Roberts]

As I understand it , you are using a wrench on one nut that is starting to round off . If you are using the box end portion of the wrench and it has many points , find a box end wrench that has a 6 point box end .

[p24-1953]

i ended up finding a thin wall 12 pt socket that would fit between the header and the bolt but the thing still wont budge. little hesitant of using a torch while the manifold is still on the car. knowing my luck i would break it. im half tempted to get a 3 foot cheater bar and just snap this one off also.

[Flatie46]

i ended up finding a thin wall 12 pt socket that would fit between the header and the bolt but the thing still wont budge. little hesitant of using a torch while the manifold is still on the car. knowing my luck i would break it. im half tempted to get a 3 foot cheater bar and just snap this one off also.

If you snap it off you can't control where it'll break at. If it breaks off flush with the head or in the hole it'll be a little tougher to get out than if you have more of it to work with. If you'll take the torch and just heat the head of the bolt till it's red then let it cool all the way down. This will expand the bolt and when it cools and shrinks back to size it'll probably come on out with some penitrating oil and that socket. By expanding it with the heat it'll probably break the corrosion and loosen it. No guarantee but it's what I'd try.

[boxer_inv]

I'm watching this thread with interest.

Can someone possibly explain to a novice like me what is the difference in applying 'torch' heat over what temperature the manifold already experiences when the engine is running? I presume we're talking a big difference in temperature? Like, red hot heating with a torch?

Rob

[james49ply]

when working at a fork lift shop, to get rusty items free i would heat the rear up with a torch, (not so hot as to warp or burn) and add PB BLASTER, lots of it, and while it cools down it will suck in the Blaster and make removal quit easy.

[Plymouthy Adams]

the operating temp of the engine and the applied torch heat to bring the bolt to cherry red is like looking at boiling water and comparing it to an ice cube..when you can apply a very concentrated pinpont heat to the bolt/stud in question and allow it to cool..it will "evaporate" if you will the rust bond between the bolt and threaded hole and usually will come out with a nut driver..after all when broken, it is just a threaded device without torque as the head of the bolt is now broken and therefore has no clamping action..a cross threaded bolt is yet another animal...do not confuse the two when it comes to extractions

[p24-1953]

well for what its worth... i had the engine rebuilt 18 years ago. (by a professional since is was only 15) and after redaing these comments i started to look at the nuts i had removed. so far 11 brass nuts, 2 steel. guess which ones i cant get off. i looks like they ran out and just used what ever they had laying around. the brass ones broke free very easly.

*note to self make sure new studs have brass nuts.. should i just replace all of them?*

[p24-1953]

Rob/boxer, so far i would have to say if your going to remove your manifold start spraying the bolts now. i have been doing two or three sprays of liquid wrench or kroil oil for the last 4 days. i though i was going to have a walk in the park untill the last two.

[Frank Ollian]

Lots of good advise on removal of broken fasteners, here is something that has worked for me on those manifold studs. If they are broken off above the block surface try a stud remover, I got mine at sears several years ago. With a torch heat the block around the stud, dont' heat the stud, you want the block to expand and not the stud. While it is hot give it a shot of PJ Blaster, as it cools it will suck some of this up. Do several cycles of this over several days. When your ready to try removal heat the block around the stud again, don't heat the stud, use a breaker bar on the stud remover and apply a steady pressure, don't over do it, you don't want to break of whats left of the stud. If you don't get it to move a little, repeat the process, be patient and try again. Also it's your call on how much heat to apply, don't over do it if you don't have to.

[Flatie46]

Lots of good advise on removal of broken fasteners, here is something that has worked for me on those manifold studs. If they are broken off above the block surface try a stud remover, I got mine at sears several years ago. With a torch heat the block around the stud, dont' heat the stud, you want the block to expand and not the stud. While it is hot give it a shot of PJ Blaster, as it cools it will suck some of this up. Do several cycles of this over several days. When your ready to try removal heat the block around the stud again, don't heat the stud, use a breaker bar on the stud remover and apply a steady pressure, don't over do it, you don't want to break of whats left of the stud. If you don't get it to move a little, repeat the process, be patient and try again. Also it's your call on how much heat to apply, don't over do it if you don't have to.

I agree with you about heating around the stud to expand the hole but I was under the impression he couldn't get to this area for the manifold being in the way.

[Frank Ollian]

Yeah, whole different game with the manifold in the way.

[Frank Ollian]

Shel Bizzy, how well does that set of stud pullers work? Mine is a different type, it's a steel disc 2" dia. with a knurled cam inside that grips the stud. Looks like I may want to update my tools.

[Plymouthy Adams]

same principle, smaller package..

[p24-1953]

okay 6.5 hrs, later (yes the wife helped keep track) i have the manifold back on. unfortunatly it is being held by 12 bolts, i could not get the last one (closest to the cab) to come out. i heated, and turned, heated and sprayed, heated and waxed, heated and prayed. none of that helped. i could not use the "hockypuck" stud removed, because it was to deep to get a socket on, i could not use the fancy type because, they too were also too deep to get a socket on. so i was left to a pair of vice grips. so i went back to heating and spraying. i have come to the conclusion that this one stud had morphed and actually become part of the block. after saying a few choice words i decided that i had been beat. if i had snaped stud off at the block there would be no way for me to drill straight in to the block, even with a right hand adapter i could not get a drill back to that area and i do not feel like removing the engine. So, i put it all back together, filled it up and started it up. no water leaks and it now has a vacumme of 19 at idle. not to shabby. i have about 2 to 3 threads sticking out past the flange so i will try to find a tapered nut to install on it thinking that if i cant get a little something on it it would be beter than nothing, but in reality what is the worst thing that could happen by driving around with 12 bolts? hw bad could the exhasut leak be? will it do any harm to the engine?

[p24-1953]

wel took it out for adrive this morning and didnt die of carbon monoxide posining

[Niel Hoback]

I have four studs missing on mine and it still runs as good as ever. Not even noisy.

[norrism1]

Trick my dad taught me.

Drill out just undersize of bold diameter, then tap and insert a bolt just under size with a flat washer. Keeps it together until you can remove the engine at a later time but still torque to specs. Undersize bolt will not interfer with the actual thread of the original size, so after you get to do a proper removal of the broken piece it will still have all points torqued down. I've done this on engine bolts, shock mounts and other bolts that went SNAP during removal.