Trouble

[JerseyHarold]

Maybe you should keep an eye out for a cheap, running flathead six that you can drop in while you decide about the present engine. At least that way you can continue rebuilding the car and get to drive it.

[jd52cranbrook]

Very sorry Joe. It was very interesting reading your threads during the put together process.

Your taking it well, at least in print. I know it must be frustrating.

[Bingster]

I'm very sorry about the engine, Joe. It's always a big let down. I guess the only positive thing you can say in a time like this is at least the rest of the car that you've completed is "in the can." Hang in there!

[Flatie46]

I hate to hear this, I was hopeing you'd find something simple and cheap to be the cause of the noise. This will happen to even the best of engine builders and they will tell you this. When you build one it's got to be clean,clean,clean then you still might get some trash in it that'll eat it up. I've heard about the ford flatheads and people saying that they had alot of trouble with sand in the blocks left over from the casting years down the road. You never know where the trash may have come from. It'd be good if the cylinder will hone out and still be in spec. I know everybody wants to build 'em close tolerance but as long as the rings seat and seal good every engine I've ever dealt with run better and had more power built on the "loose" side of spec. Like I said I hate to hear it but one thing about it you definitly learn from things like this and this will stick with ya more than just coming from a book.

[Joe Flanagan]

I'm going to finish tearing it down today. Then I'll take the block, the crank, and the camshaft to a machinist and have them tell me what it needs. It would be too good to be true if everything can be fixed by honing. I have yet to pull pistons 1 through 4, so I don't have the complete picture yet.

[Jim Saraceno]

I was really thorough (or thought I was) when I built the engine. I got a gun cleaning kit and ran a brush and rags through all the oil passages. I was really fanatical about keeping everything clean but either there was something I missed, or foreign matter found its way in there somehow. I did use assembly lube and was really generous with it.

Sounds like you did everything right, Joe. Let us know what your machinists says.

[T120]

Hi Joe, Also sorry to hear of your bad luck.I followed your progress with interest.Hope your machinist can shed some light on the problem

[Frank Elder]

This is the number 6 piston. Note the vertical scratches in the piston skirt. It had these marks on two opposite sides:

Number 6 cylinder, with scoring on two opposite sides to match the marks on the piston. These aren't really deep. In fact, they are not as deep as the cross hatching the machinist put in the cylinder walls because you can still see that pattern through these marks:

So, I guess something was going on with number six, judging from the marks on the piston pin, the piston, and the cylinder walls. I found nothing loose. Again, here is the number 6 piston pin:

Here is number 5, which is completely clean:

I don't know what this is or if it could explain the noise I was hearing. In any case, I guess it's a moot point because it seems I'm looking at a near total rebuild. My cylinders have already been bored out to .060, so I don't have any room left to take out more. There's scoring in cylinder 2 that you can feel with your fingernail. I know my crank has already been ground but I don't recall how much. I believe it was .020 on the rod journals and .030 on the mains. I also don't know if the crank even needs regrinding. I think the only thing for me to do is take the engine out, strip it down, and bring it to a machinist for evaluation.

I put this engine together about 8 years ago and it sat in my garage ever since. It wasn't the cleanest environment, though I did have it covered with plastic and two sheets. There was a lot of sandblasting going on outside, though I kept the garage doors closed. I am going to look at the crap that's on the bottom of my oil pan and also cut the filter open to see if that tells me anything.

Bad luck Joe, sorry news indeed...but whoever told you .060 was the limit was incorrect, the block can safely be bored up to .080 before the siamesed bores get too thin.

[martybose]

Bad luck Joe, sorry news indeed...but whoever told you .060 was the limit was incorrect, the block can safely be bored up to .080 before the siamesed bores get too thin.

.... or maybe even more. My block was rather thoroughly checked for cylinder wall thickness with a sonic tester before we bored it .072" over for my custom pistons, and my machinist said that it could have gone much bigger if we wanted to.

Marty

[Frank Elder]

Actually in the manual it says .0100 but I'm not that brave:eek:

[Flatie46]

Actually in the manual it says .0100 but I'm not that brave:eek:

You mean .100, that's quite an increase in cylinder volume. I bet you could really tell a difference in driving one that'd been bored .100 over.

[Frank Elder]

You mean .100, that's quite an increase in cylinder volume. I bet you could really tell a difference in driving one that'd been bored .100 over.

Sorry typo:o

[Joe Flanagan]

I don't know where I heard that .060 is the limit. Today I removed the remainder of the pistons, the radiator, and the generator. Cleared away a place in the trunk for all the engine parts and have them neatly stowed on a sheet of plastic and covered with a sheet. I'll keep stripping it down as I feel like it. After all this, I still really don't know what was causing the knocking. I'd be lying if I said I wasn't losing any sleep over this. Here's some photos, just for kicks:

[gillettealvin]

While new here, I have been messing with cars, mostly old Fords, for a long time. In the early eighties I worked in eastern NC as a manufacturer’s representative calling on engine rebuilding shops with lines of rebuilding equipment, (crankshaft grinders, cleaning equipment, cam grinders, valve guide and seat machines, etc.) and engine hard parts, (cams, rings, bearings, pistons, etc.)

While not an engine rebuilder, per se, I have had considerable experience with rebuilt engines and the people who fix them.

When you mentioned some “grit” in the bottom of the oil pan, I immediately thought of something that I have both experienced personally with a couple of my own engines, and something that most good rebuilders are aware of: the cleaning of the parts, specifically the block.

For years most rebuilders relied on the hot tank method for grease and “crud” removal. These soaking systems work fairly well, considering that the government has been restricting more and more of the process, including regulations on disposal of the chemicals, and the choices of more environmentally friendly cleaning agents. Worth mentioning here: the soak tank usually won’t address our old friend rust.

The next method of cleaning is a spray cabinet, which is more or less like a giant dish washer into which the block and other components are placed, and a combination of very strong cleaning chemicals and super hot water, (or steam,) is shot at the parts while they rotate inside of the cabinet. Again, excessive rust is not treated, and in this system, cleaning of the internal passages and water jackets is not as well addressed as in the soaking tank.

As I was getting out of the business in the late eighties, the steel shot process and the block tumbling machines were coming into play in the industry, and although I have less experience with these, both address essentially external cleaning. As I recall, some of the rebuilders were concerned with the parts retention of one or more of the tiny steel balls used in the shot process, and the possibility of same becoming dislodged into the oiling system, etc. I don’t know too much about this.

What I do remember is that if a cleaned block isn’t scrubbed once or twice with soap and water, inside and out, very often dislodged “crud” can later find its way into the oiling system causing grit, (which you found in the pan,) and all kinds of havoc with any mating bearing surfaces. It doesn’t take much for this to happen. As someone mentioned, “clean, clean, clean,” is a good rule.

On another related subject, you mentioned that the motor had been “sitting” for several years. All bare metal surfaces are subject to surface rust, and you may be surprised at how short a time it takes for oxidation to begin. We’ve all experienced an old motor that is “frozen,” and very often soaking and gentle rocking back and forth in gear will free the (usually cast iron) rings from there marriage to the (usually cast iron) cylinder wall. I personally have done this, flushed out the oil, and gone for a ride. What we don’t see is the damage that rust can do to these surfaces, (crank journals, cylinder walls, valve seats, etc.) This could very well be the cause of the light scoring you showed in your pictures of the cylinder walls on your motor. While my own hind sight is so often 20/20, the culmination of my experience today would be to disassemble any engine that has been stored for more than a couple of months, (depending of course on the environment,) with the purpose of inspecting all moving parts, checking rebuilder set clearances, and re-greasing parts in anticipation of the start up process. Of particular importance are crank bearing surfaces, and cam to lifter surfaces.

Finally, in my experience, the ONLY way to be assured that the internals of one of these ancient motors gets CLEAN would be to find a company with a de-rusting tank, (ala Readi-Strip,) and treat the old block to a couple of weeks in the soaking solution of chemicals designed to eat the rust. The attached pictures are of a Model B Ford block that sat in a FL tank for three weeks. The tech that ran the thing said he removed TWO COFFEE CANS full of rust, crud, and black gook from the inside of the water passages and internal oil lines. The gray appearance of the block in the pictures is RAW, PURE virgin cast iron! The light brownish “blush” is newly forming oxidation: R-U-S-T. IMO, there is no alternative to this thorough treatment for the vintage motors that we are fooling with. It is one thing to do a “modern” overhead motor in a de-greasing tank or spray cab, it quite another to tackle the 50 to 90 years of water passage buildup of caked rust deposits, and sand, believe it or not, from the original sand casting process!

Sorry for the length of this diatribe, but hopefully it will help you figure out your next move on your project. Good luck with it, and keep us posted on it. GA

Edited July 4, 2010 by gillettealvin
Spelling

[Cpt.Fred]

joe, i'm sorry my finger-crossing didn't seem to have any effect...

this is a mess, i'm really sorry to see this! now let's hope it can be fixed

rather easily through honing or a slight overbore and you don't have to "put it on the shelf"...!

thanks a lot for sharing the pictures, keep the faith!

best,

fred

[Eneto-55]

While new here, I have been messing with cars … for a long time. In the early eighties I worked in eastern NC as a manufacturer’s representative calling on engine rebuilding shops with lines of rebuilding equipment, (crankshaft grinders, cleaning equipment, cam grinders, valve guide and seat machines, etc.) and engine hard parts, (cams, rings, bearings, pistons, etc.)

While not an engine rebuilder, per se, I have had considerable experience with rebuilt engines and the people who fix them.

When you mentioned some “grit” in the bottom of the oil pan, I immediately thought of …the cleaning of the parts, specifically the block.

For years most rebuilders relied on the hot tank method for grease and “crud” removal.

The next method of cleaning is a spray cabinet, which is more or less like a giant dish washer into which the block and other components are placed, and a combination of very strong cleaning chemicals and super hot water, (or steam,) is shot at the parts while they rotate inside of the cabinet.

…in the late eighties, the steel shot process and the block tumbling machines were coming into play in the industry….

…. if a cleaned block isn’t scrubbed once or twice with soap and water, inside and out, very often dislodged “crud” can later find its way into the oiling system….

On another related subject, you mentioned that the motor had been “sitting” for several years. All bare metal surfaces are subject to surface rust, and you may be surprised at how short a time it takes for oxidation to begin. …. While my own hind sight is so often 20/20, the culmination of my experience today would be to disassemble any engine that has been stored for more than a couple of months, … with the purpose of inspecting all moving parts, checking rebuilder set clearances, and re-greasing parts in anticipation of the start up process. Of particular importance are crank bearing surfaces, and cam to lifter surfaces.

Finally, in my experience, the ONLY way to be assured that the internals of one of these ancient motors gets CLEAN would be to find a company with a de-rusting tank, (ala Readi-Strip,) and treat the old block to a couple of weeks in the soaking solution of chemicals designed to eat the rust. The attached pictures are of a Model B Ford block that sat in a FL tank for three weeks. The tech that ran the thing said he removed TWO COFFEE CANS full of rust, crud, and black gook from the inside of the water passages and internal oil lines. The gray appearance of the block in the pictures is RAW, PURE virgin cast iron! The light brownish “blush” is newly forming oxidation: R-U-S-T. IMO, there is no alternative to this thorough treatment ….

…. GA

Gillettealvin,

I have been following this thread all along, and am intrigued for several reasons – mainly because I have a 46 P-15 project I started years ago, and had overhauled the engine now about 30 years ago. The car has sat ever since. It has never been run after the over haul – I have just turned it over a couple of times (by hand, with a crow bar) every 3 years or so when I would be visiting my folks again. (Shortly after the over haul I met my wife, we married, and served as mission workers overseas until moving back 7 years ago, but “back” to a bit over 900 miles from my folks, where the car is. Expect to move it here sometime this summer, and revive the restoration.) It was a frame-off restoration, so I knew that the engine would not be run right away, and so we oiled the top liberally during assembly, and also poured ATF in on top of the pistons.

During that time I worked in a plating shop, and since we moved back to the US I worked for several years in a powder coating operation, so I can follow the changes in cleaning methods you talked about.

I’m wondering specifically about the type of acid used in the chemical strip you mention – I would guess it is phosphoric, not muriatic? Talk about steel rusting before your eyes – Muriatic acid is fast at stripping rust, but steel also begins rusting the minute you take it out. Phosphoric, on the other hand, is really slow, but it produces a coating which protects the steel from rust almost indefinitely. (I have an extra P-15 front engine mount which I had stripped and never painted. It has been like that for these 30 years, and it is not rusted at all.)

But my question is – could a person not just flush the engine, with say, ATF, before starting it, and then change the oil really often, or perhaps reflushing from time to time? I’ve got the blues to have to do so much of the work over w/o ever running it….

[Joe Flanagan]

Eneto,

The short time it would take you to disassemble that engine and check everything would be far better than what I'm going through now. If I'm lucky and can get by with honing and new bearings, I'll be out about $160 in parts plus the machine work. If it's a rebore and bigger pistons, I'm looking at about $350 in parts plus the machine work. I would also use the modified drill bit some guys here have described that engages the tang on the oil pump and gets the pressure up before you start it for the first time. You do this with the distributor removed, of course.

[james curl]

The oil pump is geared to the camshaft, unlike Chevrolet which has the drive gear on the distributor which in turn drives the oil pump and can be pressurized by a drill using a screwdriver shaft in an electric drill. On the Plymouth/Dodge Flathead engines you can buy a pre-oiler that is filled with oil and connects to the block oil galley after you remove a plug. The oil container is pressurized and when you discharge it pressure sends oil down the galley to all of the bearings. You will still have dry cylinder walls unless you add a little oil to each cylinder and after pre-oiling spin the engine over with the spark plugs out until the oil pressure gauge shows oil pressure. Now it should be safe to start.

[jd52cranbrook]

Or you can get one of these,,,, which are also not permanent, and can be portable.

Masterlube

Unlike mine

Comes in handy

[gillettealvin]

To answer Eneto-55’s question about the chemistry of a de-rusting tank, to my recall, the solution is alkaline, and I think phosphoric acid sounds correct, but I am not a chemist, and do not have a good enough memory to be more specific. Any of the de-rusting companies advertising in HMN or on the internet could answer your question. The one thing I am sure of is the process does not involve muriatic acid.

My experience is the water jackets have by far the most accumulation of caked and flaky rust inside. It is very difficult to even see this, other than to peer down inside of a water passage while the head is off. The water jackets are where the moisture from changing temperatures collect and raise havoc with the raw cast iron inside. A running engine with a de-rusting coolant, or anti-freeze can keep ahead of this condition. A stored engine, not so much, especially one of the vintage we are fooling with. There are many small passages that will benefit from a couple week soak in the right solution.

As far as your oiling the tops of the pistons with liberal doses of ATF, this was a good move on your part, and probably saved the rings from trying to marry the cylinder walls. But, I think 30 years is an awfully long time to rely on any oil/grease lubricating values holding up to ambient temperatures and moisture. Just for an example, a rebuilder coats the cam lobes and lifters with a lithium style grease specifically formulated for those first few moments of start up/run in. I suspect this grease could get hot over the years of sitting in the summer months, and eventually begin to break down and maybe even dribble away from the lobes and lifters. A dry start on a cam is almost a guarantee lobe wipe out. Result: new cam and lifters needed.

I agree with Joe’s answer about the limited time it will take you to disassemble the motor and check things out. I believe the time you invest in this fairly straight forward process could be worth a lot of time and maybe some $$ down the road. It is also a great opportunity to re-check all the machine work performed, and reconfirm all of your specific tolerances.

Certainly the ATF flush you are proposing may help with some of the crud that may have accumulated inside your motor, but how about heavy rust, moisture, or worse, what about a big old dirt dobber adobe home, or mouse nest hidden away in there? I once found a dead mouse on top of a piston in an engine that was sitting for a long time, and was very happy that I’d not tried to start the thing without discovering that.

At any rate, good luck with your project, which sounds like a great time! Just seeing the old car and some of the stuff you did all those years ago will be a lot of fun. Keep us posted. GA

Edited July 7, 2010 by gillettealvin
Spelling

[Eneto-55]

Thanks for the additional input. I'm sure y'all're right - I was just hoping that that part of the work would "stay done".... It will also give opportunity to retrofit a full-time oil filtration system, as some have outlined here.

[Rodney Bullock]

Hey Joe, sorry to hear about the motor:mad: I often told you that the start up on a motor is very very important. I told you about the break in procedure. I always had that fear that's why I used Durham's shop to start and break in all my motors. I think it's time for some real old school help and you know who I am talking about, if anyone can save that motor he can ( Roy Chambers) It's time to give him a call. I had him do some work for me about 3 months ago so I think he is still alive:) That guy knows everything about motors.

If I ever wanted to freeze a brain for future use it would be his, The Studebaker 289 that he built for me is a modern marvel. I just replaced the water pump and put a thermal clutch and fan on the car. The stude was operaing at 240 now on the hottest day it's at 195. That moor stayed together though all that and now runs better than ever. The wife and I took it out on the 4th of July and was surprized at how this car runs with traffic, thanks to Roy.

[Joe Flanagan]

Thanks Rodney. As far as I know, I followed the break in procedure properly. I did a lot of research and asked a lot of guys who've actually done it themselves and followed their suggestions. I also used that stuff you recommended (can't recall the name of it now, I think it has teflon in it). I really don't believe my problem had anything to do with how it was initially started or broken in. If anything, I either wasn't thorough enough in cleaning it or something found its way into the engine in the eight years it sat on a stand. If you recall, I also had problems with oil pressure in the beginning. I tried for a long time to get oil pressure up before I started it. I only could get ten pounds max. I finally discovered that the oil pressure relief valve was stuck. Once I freed it, oil pressure was normal. I don't know whether ten pounds of oil pressure was starving it of lubrication or what, but that was the scenario and might have something to do with the damage.

I will take the engine to a machinist to have it evaluated and see what it needs, but it won't be Roy. I know he does good work but I don't think I could handle five minutes with that cranky old $*&$$%. Whether or not I attempt to rebuild it myself is up in the air right now. Lots of guys have rebuilt their flatheads by themselves successfully. I hate to say "uncle," I mean, REALLY hate it. But I think I would hate a third rebuild even more, so I'm just taking some time to figure out what to do. Money is the other thing. That's a big factor in all this. Anyway, I'm going out to Jim Yergin's tomorrow to borrow his hoist and will be pulling the block this weekend.

Ah, but you should have heard it run. Damaged bearings and all.

[Don Coatney]

Joe;

I dont recall but did you originally clean your engine using the shot peen method? Howard Tarnoff did and his engine was destroyed same as yours.

Here is a link.

http://www430.pair.com/p15d24/mopar_forum/search.php?searchid=708888

[Joe Flanagan]

No, Don, I didn't. I had it hot tanked and then I ran a gun cleaning brush through all the passages, followed by a cloth patch. I washed and wiped everything down with clean rags under a strong light. I thought I was thorough. The interesting thing is my bearings look very much like Howard's. As I said, I looked at photos of damaged bearings and that kind of scoring, according to this source, indicates grit or some other foreign matter. That has nothing to do with startup or break-in, as far as I know. All it would have taken would be for me to miss one oil passage that had some crap in it.