Clutch Problem

[Reg Evans]

but I'm in for the day, cooking dinner for my working wife that's twelve years my junior. (Sort of a "Reg" joke)

Hank

Dad Gummit Hank. Now everybody knows that my wife was only 6 months old while I was graduation from high school.

Don't worry....she wasn't my high school sweetheart.

I really hope my wife doesn't see the rest of your post about you cooking and all. Even though I'm self unemployed I play dumb in the kitchen and food gathering departments. Guess I'm still a male chauvinist pig.

I agree with both A and B

"My friend Kent across the street listened to it and said the following:

A.) When you knew the pressure plate was the wrong one you should have stopped and made sure the correct one was installed and not settled for Martin volunteering the file down the fingers (I agree)

B.) Your clutch is probably o.k. so just replace the pressure plate and T.O. bearing and you'll probably be o.k. (I'd like to agree with this opinion), but I'd like to know what is the general consensus here on the forum."

[HanksB3B]

Hank: Took a first close look at the tranny. The e-brake drum is held on the shaft with a cotter-pin through it. Looks as if I will need an air impact hammer to remove the nut. Question. Is the 'faulty' seal in question then the first one I come to? This is a three speed tranny.

Real dumb question: I have a four speed tranny also. Are the seals the same?

It is the first (or outermost seal towards the rear)

I forgot the year and model of your truck. Is your transmission 3 or 4 speed is your clutch 10 or 11 inch diameter?

Thanks,

Hank

[HanksB3B]

Please look at the attached scans of the clutch and parts breakdown from the Parts Manual. Maybe I'm missing something but I can't tell by the book if I have a 10 or 11 inch clutch on my 51 B3B. Is the column "Series No" referring to either 1, 2, or 3, (as in B"3"B) truck series? I would think so. Then, on page 195 for Part Type Code No. 6-15-1 (Clutch Pressure Plate) it looks as if:

6-15-1 Plate (10" clutch) Series No. 2,3 Part No 1142 472 is correct for B Series

and that:

6-15-1 Plate (11" clutch) Series No. 2,3 Part No 1266 025 is also correct for B Series

Confused and wondering if the only way to tell is to start wrenching in a counterclockwise direction.

Thanks if anyone is sure please let me know,

Hank

[Reg Evans]

Hank,

Could you order both sizes from NAPA or whatever store is local to you and then just return the one you don't need once the R & R is complete?

[HanksB3B]

But I will call around. Autozone suprises me on occasion, don't know who else. I was a little suprised when Gary Roberts asked me if it is a 10 or 11. Maybe what I'm saying about (that it can be either) is true. It's not like it's my daily driver, but I do like to drive it daily. I could do without driving it for a week, but would like to be a little more resourceful finding what I need before I start. I could just for kicks go with replacing the anemic throw out bearing and then just throw it out. I does take 50% less time to do it a second time. Thinking about it..

Thanks,

Hank

[Young Ed]

Hank pull the clutch inspection cover and have a look. I would think some measuring would tell you. You wont be able to measure the disk itself but the overall clutch will be bigger. I suspect you might find bolt holes for both. Although the one I took apart recently that had the 11 was not drilled for the 10.

[HanksB3B]

Pilot Bearing ?

One of the guys Pat Porter from "Caffeine Cruisers" (a group that gets together every Saturday morning) has a shop and when I've got some sort of problem where he is always helpful in providing names of people that specialize in one thing or another. In this case a Transmission shop and a guy named Eric. I drove over there and described the problem:

Told him about the "neighing" horse noise and that IT ONLY DOES THAT UNTIL THE ENGINE IS WARM and very rarely once it is warm. Eric said he suspects the "Pilot Bearing" and said if it were the throw out bearing it would be making noise while I was depressing the clutch (which it doesn't).

I described how Martin ground down the fingers and while I was telling him he indicated that was "Not Good", but the thing is this; Other than the noise when first getting going before the engine is up to running temp, the clutch operates well, shifts smoothly and feels strong.

I'm pretty sure a new pilot bearing was installed. If I remember it's a relatively small bearing, but I don't remember (because I don't think I was the one to install it) how it is removed and installed.

1. Does anyone see the Pilot Bearing as a probable cause?

2. Is this something that can be done without special tools?

Thanks,

Hank

[Young Ed]

Not really much for special tools but its a fairly big job. Requires at least the removal of the transmission. Probably the clutch and flywheel to have access.

[Reg Evans]

Hank,

Did you see this recent thread ?

http://www430.pair.com/p15d24/mopar_forum/showthread.php?t=21006

[Dave72dt]

I mentioned the pilot brg as a possible way back towards the beginning. Often overlooked and usually not replaced (wrong thing to do) most will give it a spin and find it turns easily. I've found new brgs that turn freely out of the box but are a bit tight when installed. Warming it up may give it the expansion room it needs to quit protesting. You'll be pulling the trans and clutch anyway to fix your noise. Not replacing it when you're that close to it is wasting a lot of time if you have to do it again.

[HanksB3B]

Ed,

Thanks, that's not above my skill set as I did it the last time around at Ricardo's (where my truck spent about a year while the frame and engine were being rebuilt) He allows me to work on my truck at his facility he is a really good mechanic and when I get stumped or need help he steps in. I also want to drain and drop my fuel tank and install the JC Whitney fuel sending unit, as well as adjust my brakes while the truck is on a lift. If all goes well, it will be a days work.

Reg,

Thanks, I checked out the thread on removing the pilot bearing. I wish the size of the threaded rod was mentioned. Oh well, once the part is in hand I'll figure it out.

Dave,

Thanks, I looked back at what you had to say about the pilot bushing. The Pilot bearing was replaced when the engine was rebuilt, and it can't have more than 500 miles on it. Eric, at the transmission shop used to have a 47 Pilothouse (which he's sorry he sold) so he's not new to vintage engineering. He said it's more likely the pilot bearing because if it were the throwout bearing it would make the noise while the clutch pedal was in. He said the reason it makes noise is because of the difference in rotational speed between the end of the crankshaft (pilot bearing) and the speed of the flywheel. I wish money were were no object because I'd replace everything. Other than the noise (and only when cold) everything is working as it should. My cheapest way out is to just replace the Pilot Bearing. Since I will be doing it myself, I think I'd rather do it twice if I have to and save somewhere around $300. I might be sorry but then again simple trucks have proved to have simple fixes sometimes.

Thanks Gentlemen,

Hank

[Merle Coggins]

Did you lube up the pilot bushing before you put the trans in? Since you say it is a new pilot bushing, maybe it's just lacking lube? Either way you have to pull the trans and clutch to gain good access to it.

Merle

[HanksB3B]

to crawl under my truck and remove the transmission. Merle I can't remember doing anything special to the pilot bearing in the way of lubrication. More than likely it was lubed but the question remains "with what". I would imagine I need a high temp lube and want to know if there are any suggestions out there. I'll take pictures as I go and will takes pictures of the parts individually. At least I'll know if I have a 10 or 11 inch clutch and then can find the part number in the parts manual. This weekend is a Mopar Only Car Show and Swap Meet. Hopefully I'll find the correct pressure plate, throw out and pilot bearing. If not I'll be able to order parts or find someone on the forum that would help out with one.

It's not a particularly nice day, kind of 60's overcast and windy like a storms on its way, but the truck is in a covered area. Think I'll go over to Harbor Freight and pick up a drop light first. (Hope it's not a sign of chickening out)

Hank

[HanksB3B]

Got a real good fluorescent droplight at Harbor Freight. It's plastic and has a really heavy duty cord and a spare three prong outlet but that's beside the point.

I crawled under undid the spring clips on the front universal joint and wasted about an hour trying disassemble the front universal. Then I gave up and found it much faster and simpler to just remove the u-bolts on the rear universal, remove the 4 nuts holding the drive shaft to the emergency brake drum and then removing the entire drive shaft. I also removed all the linkages, speedometer cable and emergency brake cable. I loosened the 4 bolts holding the transmission on and removed one so that I could measure the size and thread.

On page 443 of the Dodge Truck Shop Manual it says to “Insert pilot studs in place of the two upper studs (bolts) in the clutch housing and withdraw transmission. I bought two 7/16” x 14 bolts at Ace Hardware and Brian cut the heads off and slotted the ends so that now it should be easier to remove and “hang” the transmission.

The 3 speed column shift transmission is ready to come out. I have not removed the center floorboard cover plate (but intend to). I have a small floor jack but it only has a 3 or 4 inch diameter plate that makes contact at the lift point. I think when I was younger I just let the transmission drop onto my chest but somehow don’t want to go that route this time.

I’m thinking of making some sort of cross brace and rope set-up so that my friend can let slack out as I lower the jack. I thought about using a couple of 2x4s forward and aft, with a pipe running left to right and a strong rope.

Question 1: Can anyone give me some advice based on experience of how to lower the transmission out?

Question 2: On a B3B (10’ clutch) I will not have to remove the clutch release fork correct?

Question 3: 3a: Has anyone re-sleeved their clutch and brake pedal assembly and their clutch release fork. It looks like this is something that can be done by removing worn bushings and replacing them with new ones. 3b: What vendor is knowledgeable and has these parts for sale?

Thanks for helping,

Hank

[John-T-53]

Well if it rained down there like it rained up here, I don't imagine you got any work done! I had to hose tree debris and splashed up mud off my truck tonight, which is still sitting in the same spot from when it arrived in Nor-Cal a month ago.

Last time I was at the Anaheim Harbor Freight, my buddy and I went in on a commie-made engine hoist for $99 with coupon (we scored with the red star special they had going). We both agreed that place smelled like a combination of gear oil, Chinese food, and moth balls.

That little tranny will come right out....forget the studs and all that stuff. When you have everything disconnected, just pull it straight back and out. It may help is you have a spotter under with you, but I ain't buffed and I pulled it and installed it several times by myself.

The clutch fork stays in place in the bell housing when you're pulling the tranny. I installed a new fork and bushings when I did mine. My fork was worn pretty bad, and Vintage Power Wagons sells NOS forks. They also sell NOS bushings, but their bushings aren't sold with the same application as our trucks. See this thread for more detail:

http://www430.pair.com/p15d24/mopar_forum/showthread.php?t=17942

Edited April 13, 2010 by John-T-53

[HanksB3B]

After the drivshaft and all linkages and cables were removed I replaced the top bolts with the homemade pilot studs.

This afternoon the transmission was removed simply by my friend Al and I by slipping it off the pilot studs guiding it to the ground. Removing the T.O. bearing and pressure plate proved to be more challenging than expected.

We slipped the throwout bearing upward past the forks which seemed to complicate matters in that clearance was minimal just trying to get the T.O. bearing out of the housing so the pressure plate could be removed. I'm hoping this was a result of the wrong pressure plate and suspect once the correct 10" plate is installed installation will be easier than removal.

We took the parts to Eric at Torrance Transmissions. He said "The disk and throwout bearing look o.k for re-install.

Pictures:

1. The Pilot Studs (highly recommended)

2. Everything Intact (think I'll put a new spring in)

3. A "professional's" solution to not having the correct gasket. Great now I know where the leak is and it's not the rear seal hooray!

4. If you look real close you can see that grinding the levers left a sharp angle that when run against the hardened steel bearing face further sharpened it to a knife edge. This I believe is what caused the neighing or squeeling noise, so yes as we suspected Hank's stupidity for throwing out the original pressure plate and Hank's bad decision in compromising with Martin's idea of making the wrong part work. True, it would have gotten me out of the Desert, or Across the Border for that matter, but eventually I'd have to pay the piper. Fortunately no real damage to the drive pinion or flywheel occurred.

5. Just the wrong pressure plate.

Things are looking up,

Hank

[Dave72dt]

You're t.o. brg guide on the transmission appears to have a rough spot just a bit down from the end and I'm surprised there is no bushing supporting the input shaft in the housing. Is that normal?

[HanksB3B]

Hi,

You mean in the pic of the transmission. I can only see a bearing in the parts manual, then what the book calls "retainer" (tube attached to a flange bolted to the transmission itself) If that is what you are referring to then yes, that's normal. I'll check on the rough spot and see if it interfaces with the mechanical operation. I do have an extra one to compare it to and if that one is in better shape, will use it.

Thanks,

Hank

[Dave72dt]

Yes, in the trans pic. There's a shiny spot on the outside of the tube in the pic and there's also what appears to be a ridge on the inside of the tube which along with the gap between the input shaft and the retainer is why I asked about maybe a missing bushing. You'll also want to remove the excess gasket material around the retainer. It'll prevent the trans from sitting square and flush in the bellhousing.

[HanksB3B]

I want to thank everyone that helped me with the “Neighing Horse Clutch Problem”. All that needed to be replaced was a new pressure plate and retainer.

1. The first picture shows the wrong pressure plate that was “made to work”

2. The second picture clearly shows the damage done to the “retainer”. This sleeve is what the throw out bearing rides on and it was being “lathed” by the long levers of the pressure plate producing the "noise" when first starting to move. Maybe because the part became hot from the friction explains why after a while the noise just seemed to go away.

3. The third picture shows the extra and un-damaged retainer (glad I had that!)

4. The fourth picture shows the extra retainer and correct gasket I found in my “Hoarders” gasket collection. I used gasket adhesive and believe I’ve fixed my transmission leak.

5. The fifth picture show “Clutch Mecca” (as I call it). It’s one of those places you just know is “The” place as soon as you walk in the door. Two Bolivian gentlemen, probably brothers in their seventies helped me. They must have forgot more about rebuilding clutches than I’ll ever need to know. As soon as I told them the application they instantly said “This is the wrong pressure plate”. Well Duh!, it turns out that for 10” clutches there are either short or long lever versions. Guess which one Martin modified while I idlly stood by? They also had NOS pilot bearings, and here is some interesting information. They described the pilot bearing as a sinterered bronze bushing, and said this is a high quality bushing. It appears lighter in color when compared with ones considered not as high quality (more of a copper color rather than light bronze). They directed me to a small sign on the wall that said the following: Do not use grease on the pilot bushing as it will clog the pores and cause galling. They recommended soaking the bushing in high quality oil for 30 minutes prior to install and that’s it! (I said 3-in-One oil and they agreed)

Total cost of the fix $59

The observations and advice Priceless!

Thank you and God Bless you all and our Trucks... Every One.

Hank

Edited April 14, 2010 by HanksB3B

[Jim Gaspard]

Hopefully there were some young Bolivians in the shop to soak up and carry forward the business, otherwise all this old school knowledge is vanishing along with the rest of us baby boomers. We're really lucky when to find these little shops still servicing our projects. Thanks for sharing.

[Merle Coggins]

I was pretty close in my initial assessment of this issue.

From my previous post

If the noise only happens when in gear with the pedal depressed I would venture a SWAG (Scientific Wild @$$ Guess) that the fingers are contacting the input shaft. If in neutral it would be allowed to spin with the clutch and not create the noise. But when in gear the input shaft is connected to the output. If sitting still the shaft is also stopped and the clutch fingers are rubbing as they spin around the shaft. This could create a squealing/howling type noise.

You could either try to grind the fingers down some more and continue to use the improper, now cobbled, clutch or you could find a correct replacement and do it right. (my opinion... you asked)

I believe the clutch is still on the engine that came out of my parts truck with a 3 speed. Or Ed says he would sell the clutch off of the engine I sold to him, which had a 4 speed. I believe Ed said his is an 11" clutch. I'd have to measure the one I have but I would guess that it's a 10 incher.

Merle

[HanksB3B]

I'd say "Right-On". Wha da ya say about posting your mobile phone number...that way any of us that get into trouble can call you anytime from anywhere..All kidding aside Merle, I'm always thankful for your help. (It's just that I don't know that much, otherwise a bell would have rang) (I think I lost it somewhere between "input" and "output" shaft...but now I know)

Thanks,

Hank

[Merle Coggins]

I'd say "Right-On". Wha da ya say about posting your mobile phone number...that way any of us that get into trouble can call you anytime from anywhere..All kidding aside Merle, I'm always thankful for your help. (It's just that I don't know that much, otherwise a bell would have rang) (I think I lost it somewhere between "input" and "output" shaft...but now I know)

Thanks,

Hank

Why not... a big part of my regular job is troubleshooting technical issues and offering technical support to our technicians and customers. It would be more fun to talk Dodge trucks rather than Volvo Construction Equipment.

[Brent B3B]

I want to thank everyone that helped me with the “Neighing Horse Clutch Problem”. All that needed to be replaced was a new pressure plate and retainer.

1. The first picture shows the wrong pressure plate that was “made to work”

2. The second picture clearly shows the damage done to the “retainer”. This sleeve is what the throw out bearing rides on and it was being “lathed” by the long levers of the pressure plate producing the "noise" when first starting to move. Maybe because the part became hot from the friction explains why after a while the noise just seemed to go away.

3. The third picture shows the extra and un-damaged retainer (glad I had that!)

4. The fourth picture shows the extra retainer and correct gasket I found in my “Hoarders” gasket collection. I used gasket adhesive and believe I’ve fixed my transmission leak.

5. The fifth picture show “Clutch Mecca” (as I call it). It’s one of those places you just know is “The” place as soon as you walk in the door. Two Bolivian gentlemen, probably brothers in their seventies helped me. They must have forgot more about rebuilding clutches than I’ll ever need to know. As soon as I told them the application they instantly said “This is the wrong pressure plate”. Well Duh!, it turns out that for 10” clutches there are either short or long lever versions. Guess which one Martin modified while I idlly stood by? They also had NOS pilot bearings, and here is some interesting information. They described the pilot bearing as a sinterered bronze bushing, and said this is a high quality bushing. It appears lighter in color when compared with ones considered not as high quality (more of a copper color rather than light bronze). They directed me to a small sign on the wall that said the following: Do not use grease on the pilot bushing as it will clog the pores and cause galling. They recommended soaking the bushing in high quality oil for 30 minutes prior to install and that’s it! (I said 3-in-One oil and they agreed)

Total cost of the fix $59

The observations and advice Priceless!

Thank you and God Bless you all and our Trucks... Every One.

Hank

 

Hey Hank, i found your horse!   just want to give a thanks for this thread and to all who have in the past, detailed their information for guys like me running 30years behind.