5 Speed, Not T5

[Robert Horne]

 

Robert, what input shaft length will the Stude bell require?  There are many 5/6  speed units to consider but alot of the 'little' guys also have a fairly short shaft.

 

Gary

 

So far, my friends have not got back to me with the Studebaker parts, for me to see if we can

adapt some type of trans to the Stude engine....

Edited March 12, 2013 by Robert Horne

[Robert Horne]

 

I have to ask. Has anyone attempted to do a 5 speed swap using a trannie from an early Dodge Dakota?

While searching for a T5 online, I saw this one pictured on Ebay and thought that it could be a good candidate to replace the 3 speed in my '36 Dodge 4 door.

1988Dakota5-Speed.jpg

It has a shorter tail shaft than the S10/Mustang/Camaro/Firebird T5, and it has the shifter forward on the tail housing like the S10 T5.

The bell housing does detach from the gearbox, but I haven't seen one up close to compare bolt patterns. It does appear to be closer to the Mustang bolt pattern than the S-10 bolt pattern.

 

I also saw a couple of newer Mustang 5 speeds that looked interesting.

A 2005

05Mustang5Speed-01.jpg

 

And a 2006:

06Mustang5Speed-01.jpg

I think these two are actually NOT T5's but TR3650 instead. Both are also of a shorter tail shaft housing with a forward mounted shifter assembly.

But I like the fact that these have an output flange instead of a slip yoke. This makes me think about adapting an original style E-brake band and drum so that I could use the stock hand brake lever.

Any thoughts?

 

Earl, the Dakota trans looks like a good possible for a swap.

The 2005, and 2006 you posted, may be also.

If any of the trans can be attached to the Plymouth/Dodge bellhousing, and the input shaft

is close enough to fit, would be a great project...

I have been looking for a Jeep 5 speed also for measurements, I believe these are similar

to the Dakota.....

[Plymouthy Adams]

later model Dakota are unitized bell tran combos...the NV3500 but the Jeep model is two part bell and tranny...making the later Dakota not a friendly unit for retrofit unless you going for the entire drivetrain package..

[Plymouthy Adams]

later model Dakota are unitized bell tran combos...the NV3500 but the Jeep model is two part bell and tranny...making the later Dakota not a friendly unit for retrofit unless you going for the entire drivetrain package..

[Earlsworkshop]

The Dakota transmission in the photo is a New Process A535 from an '89 2 wheel drive Dakota.

 

The hydraulic clutch looks like it is attached to the bell housing.

It also has the mechanical speedo drive.

 

 

 

The shorter output shaft may make it easier to install without having to modify the frame X member like Paul Curtis did to his 35 Plymouth.

 

On that Mustang gearbox, what looks like an E-brake drum is actually a harmonic balancer.

You can see that there are some balancing holes drilled on the forward part. It still looks as though a E-brake drum could be adapted over the balancer.

 

I have a '86 Jeep MJ Comanche that has the GM 2.8L V6 mated to a AX5. But mine is a 4x4 so it has a short shaft housing and no output shaft seal because it mates to a NP231 transfer case.

But, if you're interested, I just found an ebay listing for a AX5 with the 2 wheel drive tail housing.

Looks like you could get it for about $250 + shipping.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Jeep-Cherokee-2-wheel-Drive-AX5-AX-5-2wd-4-cyl-Transmission-84-01-/380582750208?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&fits=Year%3A1986%7CMake%3AJeep&hash=item589c7fe800&vxp=mtr

 

[Robert Horne]

I read that the AX-15 in some Jeeps, 1988-1999, have a two piece case, 24 inch long.

I would like to get a measurement of the input shaft.

The AX-5 Jeeps, 1987 - 2002, were with the 4 cyl engines.

Jeep T5s, starting in 1982, #13-51, and #13-52, have an input shaft of 7.5 inch.

If 7.5 inch is correct, it would be too short for my Plymouth/Dodge bell housings...

[Robert Horne]

I recently brought home a 98 Jeep XJ, 2 wheel drive, automatic, rolled over, but still can drive around the property.

It has a 3.55 rear I may try in the Coupe to test the difference in the Ranger 3.73 gears. My Coupe only has 80HP, but does ok with the 3.73, first gear a little low, but very good coming up my driveway, and fifth gear ,good over 45mph on level roads...

[wayfarer]

Correct on the NP535. Not a real robust unit, comparable to the AX5, used with 4-cyl packages, but handy for low-hp swaps.  The 535 is getting hard to find since the original production numbers were low. Shop craigslist, I have found many of the various Dak units there.

 

The AX5 and AX15 are the units with a most unique trans to bell bolt pattern and 'nearly' impossible to use the trans on another bell.

The Novak offroad folks do have an adapter to bolt the AX15 to a 'normal' bell but be aware of sticker shock.

 

This is the AX15

 

The Jeep guys love this trans and put crazy amounts of horsepower in front of them. They handle the abuse they see from the off-road work quite well.  Some additional details on my website.

[jboymechanic]

I hope to do this swap in the distant future.  Have a 1954 or 1955 truck with a 3 speed fluid drive that I replace with one of these trans eventually.  I have the truck running, but it needs A LOT of work before she'll ever hit the road.  Any way, great thread and nice project.

[Robert Horne]

My 38 Coupe has been doing very good all summer, with the TK5..        My 4 th gear  goes to neutral often going down hill, so

 

if I hold on to the shifter, it is ok for now.      

 

I checked my speedometer with a GPS unit, going 40MPH on the

 

speedometer, had 40MPH on the GPS......

 

I will be working on another TK5 soon to attach to my 56 Dodge engine....

[wayfarer]

Looking forward to the posts and photos on the next swap!  I have referred many folks to this thread when they need to maintain the oem bell and want a 5-speed.  Thanks for lots of good info.

[Robert Horne]

I put 50 miles on my Coupe on the weekend.

At 55mph on the speedometer, the GPS showed 54, so very close.

This is with 235/75-15 tires. My tachometer showed

about 1600 to 1800 rpms, not sure how accurate the tach is.

80HP moves the Coupe good on level highway and slight uphills,

at 50 to 55mph, in 5th gear. 4th does great on the 30 to 45 mph,

like on the smaller roads and in town..

Before I try the interstate, I will tighten up the steering.

I hope 80hp is enough to maintain 65mph on the Interstate.

Now Virginia raised the speed limit to 70mph.....

[Moose1947P15]

Robert,

Thanks for all the info. and pictures.

Fran

[Robert Horne]

November 2013 was the last cruise-in of the year in our little town,

 

and the first rod run for the club that does the cruise-in.      11 cars joined in

 

and did our first rod run, which was a little over 100 miles.       My little Coupe did

 

great.      Our cruise-ins start again in April, and I hope we many more rod runs.

 

Bob

[kronusula562]

Hi Robert my name is Louis.

I'm working on a 37pt50, intersted in hearing the out come of the upgrade on the drivetrain for the flathead.

Regards

[timkingsbury]

I must say I missed this thread the 1st time around and its sounds like Robert opted for a jeep 4 speed if I am reading between the lines correctly.

 

 

I do know  if I was putting a modern transmission into a1937-39 Plymouth car which is going to have the "X" frame to deal with or your 1937 Plymouth pickup which I believe is the same as a 1937 Fargo pickup.. I would be using an Aluminum cased a833's 4 speed with overdrive which  started part way into 1975 thru  mid 1987.

 

Here is the gear splits

 

Gear splits 1st: 3.09:1,  2nd:  1.67:1  3rd: 1:1   4th: 0.73:1 (Trucks used a 0.71:1 fourth)


The overdrive configuration with a 23-spline input appeared in these vehicles:
o 1975 to 1979 Valiant, Duster, Dart, Scamp, Swinger, Volare, Aspen (3.09:1 ratio first gear)
o 1975 to 1987 Dodge light-duty pickups and Dodge and Plymouth Vans (3.09:1 ratio first gear)
o 1977 to 1979 Diplomat and LeBaron (3.09:1 ratio first gear)

 

The "coles note"  version of what you will need to do.

You will need and Adapter plate and screws - which roughly cost $100

You need to change the clutch to fine spline, the you need

to Change the yoke on the back of the tranny on your drive shaft or put in a modern rear end.

The pilot bushing is the same as original.

 

On 1937 – 39 Plymouth car, you cut bottom of x frame  loop off -  (half off) to get the transmission in and then the last one I saw done, they made a bracket to put the x frame loop back in.  You may have to make a minor modification of the bearing retainer, it is round plate that has 4 or 5 bolts holding it on to the tranny..  A couple of the A833's have a longer housing and you need to unbolt it and  cut some of the housing off. About an 1” 1/8”,   The 1937 recently done he used a  1966 dodge cornet rt  clutch (10 ½”) and pressure plate. that he bought  from napa (called a clutch pack) . 

 

You can change the yoke on the drive shaft to hook up to the A833 or change the rear end.  For example on the 1937 Plymouth car, he put in a 1963- 64 Chrysler  New York rear end and it fit in perfect. It has 3” x11” brakes and posi -  3:55 with the a833  = 2.59 is the result.    The Shifter was modified slightly so it came up in the original position.  Basically the shifter was modified  to move it to the right (passenger side) and then up towards the firewall slightly to come up the original shifter position in the 1937 Plymouth.

 

In the pickup I know in a 1937 Plymouth the shifter had to be modified to go towards the passanger 3/4" and then towards the firewall 1 1/2" and it shift perfectly. In the pickup if your interested, when the snow leaves (about july.. lol) I have to go have a better look at the rear end.  I cant remember if the drive shaft was modified to  put the modern yoke or if the rear end was changed.   I do know the A833 came right out of my Dad's 1982 Dodge pickup

 

 

The net in either gives you a floor shift transmission with decent overdrive ratio (0.73:1 or on the Trucks 0.71:1) and decent gear splits..

 

If I can be of assistance,  drop me a note. Happy to help and I do not sell A833 transmissions nor do I know anyone who does at the moment.. lol !

 

Edited March 15, 2015 by timkingsbury

[oldasdirt]

I must say I missed this thread the 1st time around and its sounds like Robert opted for a jeep 4 speed if I am reading between the lines correctly.

 

 

I do know  if I was putting a modern transmission into a1937-39 Plymouth car which is going to have the "X" frame to deal with or your 1937 Plymouth pickup which I believe is the same as a 1937 Fargo pickup.. I would be using an Aluminum cased a833's 4 speed with overdrive which  started part way into 1975 thru  mid 1987.

 

Here is the gear splits

 

Gear splits 1st: 3.09:1,  2nd:  1.67:1  3rd: 1:1   4th: 0.73:1 (Trucks used a 0.71:1 fourth)

The overdrive configuration with a 23-spline input appeared in these vehicles:

o 1975 to 1979 Valiant, Duster, Dart, Scamp, Swinger, Volare, Aspen (3.09:1 ratio first gear)

o 1975 to 1987 Dodge light-duty pickups and Dodge and Plymouth Vans (3.09:1 ratio first gear)

o 1977 to 1979 Diplomat and LeBaron (3.09:1 ratio first gear)

 

The "coles note"  version of what you will need to do.

You will need and Adapter plate and screws - which roughly cost $100

You need to change the clutch to fine spline, the you need

to Change the yoke on the back of the tranny on your drive shaft or put in a modern rear end.

The pilot bushing is the same as original.

 

On 1937 – 39 Plymouth car, you cut bottom of x frame  loop off -  (half off) to get the transmission in and then the last one I saw done, they made a bracket to put the x frame loop back in.  You may have to make a minor modification of the bearing retainer, it is round plate that has 4 or 5 bolts holding it on to the tranny..  A couple of the A833's have a longer housing and you need to unbolt it and  cut some of the housing off. About an 1” 1/8”,   The 1937 recently done he used a  1966 dodge cornet rt  clutch (10 ½”) and pressure plate. that he bought  from napa (called a clutch pack) . 

 

You can change the yoke on the drive shaft to hook up to the A833 or change the rear end.  For example on the 1937 Plymouth car, he put in a 1963- 64 Chrysler  New York rear end and it fit in perfect. It has 3” x11” brakes and posi -  3:55 with the a833  = 2.59 is the result.    The Shifter was modified slightly so it came up in the original position.  Basically the shifter was modified  to move it to the right (passenger side) and then up towards the firewall slightly to come up the original shifter position in the 1937 Plymouth.

 

In the pickup I know in a 1937 Plymouth the shifter had to be modified to go towards the passanger 3/4" and then towards the firewall 1 1/2" and it shift perfectly. In the pickup if your interested, when the snow leaves (about july.. lol) I have to go have a better look at the rear end.  I cant remember if the drive shaft was modified to  put the modern yoke or if the rear end was changed.   I do know the A833 came right out of my Dad's 1982 Dodge pickup

 

 

The net in either gives you a floor shift transmission with decent overdrive ratio (0.73:1 or on the Trucks 0.71:1) and decent gear splits..

 

If I can be of assistance,  drop me a note. Happy to help and I do not sell A833 transmissions nor do I know anyone who does at the moment.. lol !

 

wow wow wow.... back the truck up there. are you telling us there is a modern mopar overdrive solution that is floor shift ?

that is the holy grail for a lot of us. where do we get the adapter plate? I don't have a project needing it this second although

with this idea in my back pocket that may change!

[Frank Elder]

0.71:1 from the truck tranny is right.....but that truck bell housing is a behemoth, major floor surjury to get it in. I would stick with the car version at 0.73:1 myself.

 

oldasdirt the ax-15 dakota 5spd is another option, I don't know if it is bulky or not.

[Young Ed]

I'm not sure I'd exactly call them modern at this point either.

[timkingsbury]

0.71:1 from the truck tranny is right.....but that truck bell housing is a behemoth, major floor surjury to get it in. I would stick with the car version at 0.73:1 myself.

 

oldasdirt the ax-15 dakota 5spd is another option, I don't know if it is bulky or not.

Hi Frank  -  Sorry I might not have been clear enough.  You don't use the truck bell housing,  you use the stock bell housing that your car came with

and an adapter plate inbetween that bell housing an the A833.

[timkingsbury]

wow wow wow.... back the truck up there. are you telling us there is a modern mopar overdrive solution that is floor shift ?

that is the holy grail for a lot of us. where do we get the adapter plate? I don't have a project needing it this second although

with this idea in my back pocket that may change!

yes sir and I will expand my post over on my blog.

 

I'm not sure I'd exactly call them modern at this point either.

Lol, good point..

[Robert Horne]

Hi Robert my name is Louis.

I'm working on a 37pt50, intersted in hearing the out come of the upgrade on the drivetrain for the flathead.

Regards

 

My 38 Coupe did very good all summer with the Ford Ranger TKO 5 speed/3.73 rear.

 

The 3.73 works great in the hilly area here, and does ok on flat highways.        The 3.55 would work better in less

 

hilly areas.         My engine is a stock 80hp engine, runs great, and works great with the 5 speed..

 

.

[wayfarer]

 

The net in either gives you a floor shift transmission with decent overdrive ratio (0.73:1 or on the Trucks 0.71:1) and decent gear splits..

 

 Not everyone that I know would consider the side-shifted A-833 to be the same as a top-shifted 'something' since the giant chrome Hurst shifter looks more at home in my RoadRunner than it would in Robert's coupe...but that's just me.

 

The Ranger 5-speed appears to do every that Robert needs it to do and no doubt it would do the same for most folks contemplating a swap. A reference was made to the AX15 and it too would be a better swap, IMHO, than the A-833 since it has a top shift but it is a bit bulky and has a very unique interface to the bellhousing. Doable yes, but not for the faint-of-heart.

[Plymouthy Adams]

only an aluminum cased MISER 833 would I consider for any upgrade swap...the 4th gear is OD...the old cast iron 833 takes two men and a boy to grapple with its weight in comparison...The R10 is the easiest way to go but not everyone wants the cost and the electrical headaches that often go with the R10..I have bought three cars with R10...I have gotten rid of three R10 ODs..its just a personal thing..the heart wants what the heart wants..if anyone is considering the T5 and couple that with the flathead..do get the wide ratio 1 & 2 as 3,4 5 are same on both close and wide...(per model), stay away fronm 4 cylinder car/truck tranny..they are geared for the small engine and thus the ratios are such to make it work within that power band..the lower gears of the wide will get you off the line even if you step up to a higher ratio rear gear...with OD and the torque curve of the stock flattie...I would not recommend anything higher than 3.55 unless all you do is blvd cruise...

[Don Coatney]

First to clear a few things up. I was one of the first on this website to install a non MoPar five speed manual over drive T-5 transmission and reported such so on this website. Prior to my install I did my research and was well aware of the ratios. The first T-5 I selected was a 1352-107. This transmission was from a diesel S-10 pickup. What I discovered was the input shaft from this transmission was shorter that the input shaft from a gas powered S-10. So I rejected the diesel T-5 and found and installed a 1352-145. Both of these transmissions have identical ratios as follows. I find these ratios to be a good fit for the torque and horsepower curves of my Flathead 6 engine and I have installed a 3.55/1 differential in my car.

 

R-3.76/1, 1st 3.78/1, 2^nd 2.18/1, 3^rd 1.42/1, 4^th 1.0/1, OD .72/1

 

I have driven my car with this transmission installed over 40,000 trouble free miles and I am very happy with it. Others such as Robert Horne have install other non MoPar 5 speed manual transmissions with great success and I applaud there innovative efforts. I have not read any reports of anyone on this forum installing a semi modern MoPar five speed floor shifted transmission behind a Flathead 6 and hopefully if someone has done so they will come forward and post there results of the install and drive ability.

 

I have read reports on this website of someone who installed a diesel T-5 with a very low 5^th gear ratio. This person indicated that that recommendation to install the diesel transmission came from a forum member on this website. I do not recall anyone on this website ever making such a recommendation. The person who made this report is a forum member with zero postings but he did post his e-mail address. I have made attempts to contact this person via e-mail but I did not get a response. I must assume this person did not do his homework prior to doing the install and that is his responsibility and cannot be blamed on anyone else.

 

I have also read reports on this website that some folks who have installed a T-5 have regrets and are not happy. Problem is the reports are not directly from the folks who have installed the T-5. I would like to hear from them and why they are not happy. Comments from someone else have little meaning.

 

At the time I did my install there were no “kits” available. I did my own measuring and modifying with the mind set that failure was not an option. Pictures of what I did have been posted on this forum many times. I will gladly share what I did with anyone at no charge. I am not trying to sell my ideas but at the same time I do not want someone else selling my ideas.

 

Installing any non stock transmission is not for the faint of heart. One must have a good understanding of what the requirements are and a good mechanical skill set. The kits available today are helpful but none are an easy bolt in with no modifications required.