It's running!!!!!

[pflaming]

After a carburtor clean up, it still wouldn't start so we took Graybeards advice and hooked up a 12 volt battery. Evidently the compression is to low for a slow crank start, because it started!!!! and kept running. We let it warm up and then slowly cut the rpms to a reasonable idle which it maintained. Since I only have a lawnmower gas tank, it eats up a lot of gas FAST. But it runs. This is the original engine, not the one with the rusty engine. This one sat for 17 years without a head on.

SO thanks to all, now is it a keeper? If it won't start on six volts then . . . but the sound was exillerating, nicest music in a long time. Got a bit of exhaust coming out of the headers, hopping that will tighten up when it gets warmed up, then I will retorque them and see if they hold. Heard some clicking, maybe loose pistons, but no pronounced noice so the rods must be ok. Oil pressure was 40#.

If it was yours, what would you do next?

Here is the link to youtube to hear it running!!!

Edited August 30, 2018 by pflaming

[aero3113]

Could the clicking you hear be the fuel pump?

[John-T-53]

That's the ol' fire...yay!!!

The oil pressure being 40 lbs or greater is a sign that your bearings are good. I think now that you got her loosened up a bit, after all that time sittin', you should be able to go back to the 6 volt battery. The clicking might be the valves, which is normal for these engines.

You might want to check the valve lash after running it for a bit and readjust them if necessary. My machinist told me valves tighten up with time, more so on a freshly rebuilt engine, due to seating and lengthing of the stem. A looser valve will give you more power and a quieter engine, although valve train noise will increase slightly.

[Reg Evans]

Congrats on getting the engine running Paul. After you have run it for a while it would be a good idea to do a compression test to see what shape it's in.

[pflaming]

Going to open the garage doors tomorrow and let it run for maybe an hour, then retighten all head, carb, water, manifold bolts and recheck the compression.

Would the old 'snake oil' / bon ami treatment help this old engine? I did nothing to the bottom of this engine. I only cleaned up the outside, changed the oil, put on milled head, new fuel pump, electronics, cleaned the old carb and got it to run. For an X English teacher I'm quite pleased.

[Frank Elder]

Bon Ami, mon ami, it can't hurt, but maybe you have some low compression cylinders that need some attention......Wonderful news Paul!

[buds truck]

ain't nothin sweeter than hearing an old engine fire up for the first time in a long time. Congrats. Bud

[Don Coatney]

Bon Ami, mon ami, it can't hurt, but maybe you have some low compression cylinders that need some attention......Wonderful news Paul!

It can hurt! I would not do it unless the rings are not seated.

[MBF]

That's great-I know that feeling. I'd give her a drink of Marvel Mystery oil down the carb throat when she's hot. I'd even choke it off on it when its going to sit for a few days to maybe help the rings loosen up. Did you have much of a ridge on the top of the cylinder bores? Mike

[Frank Elder]

It can hurt! I would not do it unless the rings are not seated.

Is this engine rebuilt, or just cleaned up and buttoned back up?

[pflaming]

1. The block is "as found" nothing changed for over 20 years.

2. I honed out the cylinders but they did not have any ridge to speak of, there weren't any 'scratches' in the cylinder walls either. I had a mechanic look at it before I decided to see if it would run, he encouraged me to go for it. The pictures show before honing and after honing on the cylinders,

Dad always 'flooded out' his harvestor engines for the long wait. He would get the engine nice and warm, then pour oil in the carb until it stopped, buttoned it up. Next year, started right up. Seems those John Deere harvestors (combines) had Continental engines. They were very much like these old flatties.

So 'Marvel Oil' . . . How long would you let it set, a couple of days be enough?

Can one pull the pistons without pulling the crank or the head and just do a ring job? How big a job is that? I have a large winch hung in the rafters so I can handle the engine with out much effort.

Edited June 11, 2017 by pflaming

[1949P17BC]

If it was mine, while its out I would at least pull the pistons, new rings and rod bearings, while the pan is off, clean the pump, new timing gears and chain, check the water distribution tube. Re gring/lap in the valves, put new valve springs in and reset them. And you should be good to go! Thats what we did to my 49 and I have driven over 6M and runnign strong

[Don Coatney]

Is this engine rebuilt, or just cleaned up and buttoned back up?

In the mid 50's shiverlay issued a technical bulleten to use BON-AMI to seat rings in a new engine. What this ammounts to is pouring scouring (abraisive) powder down the carburetor to assist the rings into seating. I have never done this and I never will with todays technology. Use the search engine on this forum to find several postings about this subject. It may have done well in the mid 50's but engine longevity was never discussed. The abrasive crap will eventually find its way into crankshaft bearings and destroy them in my humble opinion.

[pflaming]

Don, you have a lot of company. I am not going that route. I retested the compression: with 12 & 6 volt: Results as follows, the first number is 12 volt, second is 6 volt: #1: 85 / 60; #2: 80 / 50; #3: 75/ 50; #4: 75 / 45; # 5: 90 / 60; #6: 110 / 80. So some oil has raised the original numbers and running it a bit faster even more.

At this point, since my goal was to clean and get it on the road with a minimum amount of money, I think I may release the rods, remove the head, and do a ring job. Got to think about that.

Interesting, very interesting. A mechanic acquaintence did not think the engine would take the truck down the street, just too little power. He theorized that when the clutch was engaged, the engine would die. . . . One man's evaluation.

Majic marvel is not expensive, may warm the engine up tomorrow, flood it out with that and let it set over Sunday. Small price to pay for a little knowledge.

[Frank Elder]

In the mid 50's shiverlay issued a technical bulleten to use BON-AMI to seat rings in a new engine. What this ammounts to is pouring scouring (abraisive) powder down the carburetor to assist the rings into seating. I have never done this and I never will with todays technology. Use the search engine on this forum to find several postings about this subject. It may have done well in the mid 50's but engine longevity was never discussed. The abrasive crap will eventually find its way into crankshaft bearings and destroy them in my humble opinion.

Point and match.... Seriously you have very valid point and I do respect your knowledge, thanks for posting Don.

[carl b51]

Paul it,s great to hear that you got the flathead running. Your Not just a Ex English Teacher . GOOD JOB Carl

[greg g]

Well in Bon Ami's support it is the least abrassive of the cleansing powders out there, even less so than toothpaste. You mentioned that the cylinders have a fresh hone, You might just run it for a while to see it the rings will seal up after some heat cycles.

and lots of mopars went down the road for a good long time with compression reading less than what you posted.

[pflaming]

"You might want to check the valve lash after running it for a bit and readjust them if necessary. My machinist told me valves tighten up with time, more so on a freshly rebuilt engine, due to seating and lengthing of the stem. A looser valve will give you more power and a quieter engine, although valve train noise will increase slightly."[/COLOR]

Do I want to tighten or loosen the valves? Why would a looser valve give more power? Seems the tighter the valve the higher the compression. Also, what do you mean by 'valve train noise'? I'm a Shakespeare man, a lot of these terms are not in my 'glossery'.

[greg g]

A valve that is adjusted with less than spec'ed clearence (tight) may not close all the way. A valve that does not completely contact the seat will leak compression, and an exhaust valve not in contact with the seat will not cool properly as the job of the water distribution tube is designed to direct coolant at the valve seat area keeping the it cool. If clearence is too small, when parts expand with heat the clearence may disappear completely.

so more clearence which allows the valves to truely close against the seats, is better for valve life. the little bit of mechanical clatter is cheap insurance.

[pflaming]

Greg: If I understand what you wrote, this is how the cam and the valve work together.

1. The valves are held tight by the springs

2. They are opened by the cam

3. SO. . . The referenced clearance then is the amount the valve is allowed to have between a closed valve and the small part of the cam.

4. IF. . . that clearance is too close or not enough, then the valve is considered TOO TIGHT and cannot fully drop, because it cannot come off the bottom of the cam, hence it will not close.

5. So the ‘loose’ valve setting allows a bit of clearance between the valve stem and the bottom of the cam and the clicking is the cam hitting the valve stem and thus is proof that the valves are closing.

Am I getting close? I could get someone to do all this for me, but then I would just be another driver of an old truck. I want more, therefore I press for understanding. I appreciate your patience with me. Once a person knows why, he will then understand how.

[Frank Elder]

That's the teacher in you Paul, and by the way thank you for enlightning young minds.

[MBF]

I just went through a similar scenario with my 78 Dodge slant six. I was tempted to just hone and rering it. Bottom end was tight and had good oil pressure. When I took the pistions out there was an extensive taper worn into the cylindrers, and some had a ring gap that was far beyond the specs. I was told to rering and put it back together. I took it to a machine shop that mic'd the bores. He builds racing engines and gave me some options, but strongly recommended boring the cylinders. I had to go .030 over, have all new pistons, bearings, oilpump, cam bearings, chain, gear, dist drive and a trued head, 3 angle valve job. While I had it out I did all of the accessories (water, fuel pump, etc). It was more money than I wanted to spend, but even w only 300 miles on it it runs better than it ever has in the past 29 years. Having said that-it depends on what you want to do with the truck. All of my trucks are toys that sit in the garage until show season, but at 56 yrs of age I didn't want to be taking it out and apart in another 5 yrs. And wouldn't you know-as soon as I got the 78 together, the 52 1 ton burned the exhaust valve on #6! Soooooo-here we go again! You did a fine job for an ex English teacher-I know-I'm an ex instrumental music teacher! Mike

[coW52Dodge]

That's always an exciting and scary moment, turning it over for the first time. Congrats!

[pflaming]

Here is the history of the compression tests; For the *last test, I placed 1/4 tsp of Sea Foam carb/ring cleaner in the pistons, cycled them a few and let them set for about three hours then I started it and let it run til the thermostat read 190, shut it down and tested.

6 v cold 12 v cold *12 v hot

1 60 85 100

2 50 80 100

3 50 75 90

4 45 75 90

5 60 90 110

6 80 110 125

Based on how fast a quart of gas disappears, the carb is set VERY rich. The valve clicking is consistent. I put my hand on the exhaust pipe (no muffler) and do not feel any excessive 'puffs' which, if I remember is one way of checking if a valve is badly leaking.

Any suggestions. Based on this, I am thinking of fine tuning the carb, put it back in the truck, and get on to the brakes. "If it ain't broken, don't fix it" an old mechanic told me.

[John-T-53]

The compression looks good...before I rebuilt my motor I had compression in the 60 to 90 psi range, and drove it for 5,000 miles like that. It had enough power to get around town, but bogged down when trying to tow. It also had a lot of blow-by fumes, which was the biggest complaint of my passengers.

Looks like you got the valve lash theory figured out. In addition to less power, tight valves can also get burnt. The lash setting for valves is the clearance between the top of the tappet and the valve stem end. The tappet, or lifter is the part that contacts the camshaft.

Here's a link the the forum's technical advice page where valve adjustment is covered:

http://www40.addr.com/~merc583/mopar/framesets/techtipframeset.html

Edited December 14, 2009 by John-T-53