Bad electrical = histarical!

[Robert Smith]

Greetings, it is I Robert here after many a month without so much of a peep.

Went for a drive last Saturday night in the '46 Ply... light switch started to go funny... in fact, I started to smell some kind of weird smell when I drove into Pasadena... I thought it was some open sewer spill or something, smelled like that to me... but, then I started to see wisps of smoke coming from the dash board!!! Then the lights went out. I pulled over and turned off the car.

I took out the light switch and inspected it... burned the fuse. I put in a new fuse and it was working but, that switch was getting hotter by the second! So, I drove home back to Monrovia with no headlights on... unless by the chance a cop should show up, I'd turn on the lights till he was gone... can we say, adventure? lol

Well, I parked the car, haven't had any chance to get around to it but, I figured it would be ok to drive during the day since everything else seemed ok. Drove to work yesterday, car started just fine… well, when I was about to leave, I turned the key and hit the button and heard nothing... not a click, not a peep out of it! Dead battery? Maybe... called AAA and they came with a jumper box... he tried it, didn't get any spark at all... the car didn't turn over either.... then, he moved the battery cable around some and then it took the jump... I may have a bad battery cable but, not sure. Once I had it started, it was showing a charge, I turned on the lights for a second and I could tell they would get brighter when I hit the gas... seems like it's charging... interesting huh?

So, after that description and story, what would some of you gents suspect the problem to be? I really want to find someone locally to go through the electrical system of my bucket of bolts to find out why the light switch is getting so damn hot... crazy stuff.

Thanks in advanced,

Rob=-

[Jim Saraceno]

Well, right off the top... two things.

If your switch is hot, that sounds like a bad connection. If your battery is being drained, that sounds like a ground. If your battery doesn't work, you shake the cables, then it does work, that sounds like a bad connection.

I would start by checking all the connections for the battery and lights, taking them apart, inspecting then, cleaning them until they are shiny, and put them back together.

You might want to get a hygrometer to check your battery condition. Is the battery drained or is there just a bad connection. If your battery is drained then there is a ground that you have to eliminate. If the battery is not drained then again, it is a bad connection.

Good luck!

[Plymouthy Adams]

just a tired old switch by now if it got that hot prior to popping the fuse..do not overlook the moisture and bad connections at the dimmer switch as adding extra current drain into the equation..

[Powerhouse]

Jenny tooted...

[Norm's Coupe]

As mentioned, it could be just your switch is bad. But.....you said the car would not take a jump until he moved the cables around. That would mean one of two things there too. One, you didn't have the cable tight to begin with. Or two, you have a bad battery cable.

Before the rebuild on my engine the car only ran on 3 1/2 cylinders, plus it had a weak coil. So........it was a little hard to start at times. Once while at home trying to start the car with the hood up, I noticed smoke coming from the battery cable connection at the battery on the positive side. Got so hot it actually melted some of the lead on the connector. That happened due to a bad battery cable.

That said though. Where there's smoke, there's fire. So...........I would suspect that even if you have a bad battery cable, something may be wrong at the switch also. That could be just corrosion, bad connection, or the switch itself is taking a dump.

[Robert Smith]

As mentioned' date=' it could be just your switch is bad. But.....you said the car would not take a jump until he moved the cables around. That would mean one of two things there too. One, you didn't have the cable tight to begin with. Or two, you have a bad battery cable.

Before the rebuild on my engine the car only ran on 3 1/2 cylinders, plus it had a weak coil. So........it was a little hard to start at times. Once while at home trying to start the car with the hood up, I noticed smoke coming from the battery cable connection at the battery on the positive side. Got so hot it actually melted some of the lead on the connector. That happened due to a bad battery cable.

That said though. Where there's smoke, there's fire. So...........I would suspect that even if you have a bad battery cable, something may be wrong at the switch also. That could be just corrosion, bad connection, or the switch itself is taking a dump.[/quote']

Good suggestions guys... I appreciate the help!

I did forget to mention that I replaced the original light switch with an aftermarket one I got at a local auto parts shop... I noticed it blowin' fuses once a month... like clockwork, on the 6th or 7th of each month! Now, I decided I didn't have a strong enough fuse... so, I bought a slightly stronger fuse... maybe that wasn't such a good idea.

Interesting though, when I've had a bad ground somewhere and the battery was getting drained, the needle on the ams gage was all the way over to the left... so, I would know something was up. But, the needle sits just a hair right of the middle of the gauge.

I think the 8 volt battery has really messed up the electrical... 6 volt system, 8 volt battery with a 6 volt regulator adjusted to allow 8.5 volts to the battery off the generator... yeah, I think the time has come... Yes, you're all my whitnesses... The great vintage Purest is going to utter the infamous words... 12 VOLT SYSTEM!!!

This car needs to start, not fry fuses and all that... I did land a new job that will make money so I can pay for this stuff but, I haven't received my first check as of yet. Going to be a tough go.

And yes Powerhouse, Jenny pooted...This shouldn't come to any surprise I'm sure as you well know my Plymouth loves to Poot!

Thanks again guys,

-=R

[Plymouthy Adams]

8 volt battery pushing a 6 volt system..over fusing..not a good idea...you really need a very sensitive amp meter to check these circuits for excessive drain...add a bad ground along the way and the voltage drop makes current goes higher yet, and as it gets hotter, the amperage increases..you are into thermal runaway before you know it....over fused..a device suffers..lights and such always have a lesser life on a higher voltage..it amazed me in the early 90's that headlights were rated for 10.5 volts..yet pushed by 13+ volts..

obey ohms law or pay dearly...

[Norm's Coupe]

Robert,

You didn't tell us about using a larger amp fuse in the first post. That's a real important fact to leave out. You should never hook up a solid wire in a fuse holder, or use a larger than recommended fuse for a circuit. If you do, you are asking for disaster to strike.

Back when homes had fuses in the electrical box instead of circuit breakers, there were many homes burned down due to people replacing fuses with penny's when a fuse blew, or using a larger amp fuse. When you do that you are then allowing more amps to travel through that wire than it's made to handle. The wire overheats and starts the fire. Once that happened in your case, the short also created a huge drain on your battery causing it to drain completely. Who knows, you could have damaged the battery also due to that short.

Several years ago, about the same thing happened to a guy at a cruise in here, in his 50 Ford. When we were leaving the cruise in, it was dark. Got in his car and it wouldn't start. Couple of guys gave him a little push and he got the car started. Then he tried to turn on his lights and they wouldn't come on. Come to find out, he said he had just installed a new headlight switch and must have done something wrong. Prior to that he had no problems starting the car. So.........that's probably the root to all evil in your car too. Probably all stems from that headlight switch.

[Robert Smith]

Yeah, last year I was just so tired of having such dim headlights and such... I asked around here about the 8 volt battery route... Got some good input on it... so, figured I'd take a chance. Well, this has turned out to be a mistake. I'm going to get a 6 volt battery, new battery cables, a new light switch and the right fuses for it then see what happens... And when I'm up in the chips, I'll be converting to 12v! As well as getting the motor rebuilt.

[Norm's Coupe]

Robert....

There may be another way to get brighter 6 volt headlights, doing it the right way. Once you get your new switch, etc., look for a 6 volt headlight relay. They are supposed to help make your 6 volt lights brighter, and, they are period correct on any old car. They started using them sometime in the 40's on 30's - early 50's cars. Most were aftermarket at the time. My lights are nice and bright and I have the relay. However, I really don't know if the relay makes them brighter since it's always been on my coupe. You can find one on ebay or through some parts vendors. Will usually run somewhere between 10 and $30, depending on who's selling it.

[desoto1939]

Since you are going back to 6v I would also suggest that you run a ground wire off of each headlight to insure a good ground. Grounding always very important with 6v.

When the cars that had the old headlight bulbs in them and then they did the converstion over to sealed beams for the 39 and back cars they would isntallthe headlight relay.

This helped to supply voltage directly to the relay instead of going to the headlight switch and then to the dimmer switch and then out to your lights. The two switchs, headlight and dimmer then just became a way of controling the lights, on/off high/low beam. The direct wiring from the supply (battery or in my case with the 39 Desoto the stater switch and batty connectiononthe stater) to the relay. The voltage ran a shoter distance to keep the volts up and then the rlay did the work.

Rich Hartung

desoto1939@aol.com

[Jim Saraceno]

Going from 6v to 8v to 12v trying to overcome some electrical problems is not a good way to go. You are having problems because you have some combination of bad connections and loose or grounded wire.

You need to fix the problems whether you go to 8v or 12v AND if you DO fix those problems, you'll have no need to go to a higher volt system.

Or then you could get some marshmallows ready to roast when things heat up again.

[Don Coatney]

I'll be converting to 12v!

Why dont you simply find and fix the problems with your wiring? You converted to 8 volts when others told you to find and fix your problem. Now you want to convert to 12 volts without finding and fixing your problem. What is next? Converting to 18, 24 volts and still not fixing your problem?

[Robert Smith]

Yes, I realize there is still a problem somewhere... I'm going to fix it before I go to a 12 volt... I've had enough fun with smoking and glowing fuses already.

Now, my main gripe with the 6volt faith is the starting... in cold weather, it turns that starter over slowly... and you're battery is dead before you get the car started. That's the experience I've had... and I live in So Cal where it doesn't even get that cold!

Also, I'm short on time to keep the contacts clean on that car... they get dirty so fast it seems.

[Robert Smith]

Why dont you simply find and fix the problems with your wiring? You converted to 8 volts when others told you to find and fix your problem. Now you want to convert to 12 volts without finding and fixing your problem. What is next? Converting to 18, 24 volts and still not fixing your problem?

Don, calm down. I don't appreciate that at all. It's not funny... I'm just a poor guy who's trying to find the problem right now and that's why I came to ask. I'm not going out right now to buy a 12v battery and hook it up now am I? Did I ever say that? Did I ever mention that I don't intend to fix the problem first before I do a conversion? HUMMMM???

Geez, I may still be a little wet behind the ears when it comes to old cars but, I didn't just fall of the turnip truck!

If you want to offer advice, that's fine but I can do without the wise cracks right now, ok?

Edited October 29, 2009 by Robert Smith

[T120]

Yeah, last year I was just so tired of having such dim headlights and such... I asked around here about the 8 volt battery route... Got some good input on it... so, figured I'd take a chance. Well, this has turned out to be a mistake. I'm going to get a 6 volt battery, new battery cables, a new light switch and the right fuses for it then see what happens... And when I'm up in the chips, I'll be converting to 12v! As well as getting the motor rebuilt.

imho - 8 volts is a poor choice.Initially you may find it a help in starting,but you mentioned adjusting your regulator to 8.5 volts -that is not enough to keep an 8 volt battery fully charged.It should be closer to 9.5 volts..which places a stress on some of the 6 volt components of the 6 volt electrical system.Getting a new 6 volt battery and re-adjusting the regulator and fixing the wiring problems is a good choice -good luck

Edited October 29, 2009 by Ralph D25cpe

[Don Coatney]

It is no colder in California these days than it was in the P-15 era. Six volt cars started then and they will start today. Voltage is not the problem. Find and fix the problem.

When I bought my P-15 the prior owner had done a half fast 12 volt conversion. It was less expensive for me to complete the 12 volt conversion than to revert to 6 volts. Otherwise I would be using 6 volts today.

[Don Coatney]

Don, calm down. I don't appreciate that at all. It's not funny...

Geez Robert;

Read your title (Bad electrical = histarical!) I guess it is funny to drive without headlights:confused: I was giving you good advice!

[Merle Coggins]

Robert, I think you have several problems with your electrical system. And as has been mentioned jumping up to a higher voltage system isn't going to fix them. It will be wise to clean up the electrical system and correct any and all wire and connection issues first. Over the years ground connections become corroded, rusted, loose, or just plain dirty. The same goes to other electrical connections as well as wires themselves.

As for the slow cranking/hard starting, here again a good look at battery cable connections, condition, and cable size is a must. When I built my truck I rewired everything new and even added a couple of extra ground wires to assure good current flow. I also had my starter and generator gone through by a local starter/alternator shop because they had been laying in the bed for God only knows how long. That along with 2/0 battery cables allows me to crank 'till the cows come home if I need to. 6 volt starters will crank a bit slower than 12 volt systems, but it still cranks plenty fast to start the engine. Also, with the new wiring my lights are plenty bright, as they should be, with my 6 volt system.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with 6 volt systems. The only drawback is lack of aftermarket accessories. I work with 24 volt electrical systems every day and I can say without a doubt that the lights aren't any brighter on those machines than on one with a 12 volt system (unless you put a 12v bulb in a 24v system, then it gets REAL bright for a very short time and then gets REAL dark). The only thing that can change a light's brightness is in it's design and watt rating.

Merle

[Robert Smith]

Well, I can take a joke like the next guy, but from what I digested your "advice" was an assumption that I didn't intend to fix the problem before I was to upgrade to a 12v.

All I want is this car to be fixed ie electrical or motor or what have you… I’ve had to do half assed fixed jobs due to a serious lack of cash and now that I will be having some in the near future, then I really want to get things fixed correctly.

No more incorrect repairs!

[Robert Smith]

Robert, I think you have several problems with your electrical system. And as has been mentioned jumping up to a higher voltage system isn't going to fix them. It will be wise to clean up the electrical system and correct any and all wire and connection issues first. Over the years ground connections become corroded, rusted, loose, or just plain dirty. The same goes to other electrical connections as well as wires themselves.

As for the slow cranking/hard starting, here again a good look at battery cable connections, condition, and cable size is a must. When I built my truck I rewired everything new and even added a couple of extra ground wires to assure good current flow. I also had my starter and generator gone through by a local starter/alternator shop because they had been laying in the bed for God only knows how long. That along with 2/0 battery cables allows me to crank 'till the cows come home if I need to. 6 volt starters will crank a bit slower than 12 volt systems, but it still cranks plenty fast to start the engine. Also, with the new wiring my lights are plenty bright, as they should be, with my 6 volt system.

There's absolutely nothing wrong with 6 volt systems. The only drawback is lack of aftermarket accessories. I work with 24 volt electrical systems every day and I can say without a doubt that the lights aren't any brighter on those machines than on one with a 12 volt system (unless you put a 12v bulb in a 24v system, then it gets REAL bright for a very short time and then gets REAL dark). The only thing that can change a light's brightness is in it's design and watt rating.

Merle

I appreciate that info, I do believe what you say, it's just a never ending saga it seems... I used to take an afternoon and sit and clean the contacts on the generator, starter, battery, and so forth... monthly! And it seemed to keep things goin' ok. Now, with life living with a woman and working a full time job my time is practically nil. I ignore the car; the car resents me and puts up a fuss, then if I ignore the woman, same thing.

I may have to take a few days off of work to get this problem fixed... it has to be fixed or Rob ain't got no wheels.

[Merle Coggins]

No assumptions intended, just advise given. I can understand the need to patch things until funds come available for proper repairs. But after I read this...

I think the 8 volt battery has really messed up the electrical... 6 volt system, 8 volt battery with a 6 volt regulator adjusted to allow 8.5 volts to the battery off the generator... yeah, I think the time has come... Yes, you're all my whitnesses... The great vintage Purest is going to utter the infamous words... 12 VOLT SYSTEM!!!

I just felt the need to comment that a properly repaired 6 volt system will give you excelent service.

Merle

[Norm's Coupe]

Robert........

All good advise from the others. As for your car not starting when it's cold out because it's 6 volt, should not make a difference. As stated by the others, if the electrical and gas systems are all working as they should, the car should start at any temperature, with the 6 volt system. While cleaning contacts monthly isn't really a bad thing, it's probably a waste of time because it shouldn't be necessary. Other than the battery terminals, I haven't touched the contacts on my starting system since I rebuilt the engine back in 1999. My coupe will start right up, without a complete engine turn over at any temperature, and I live in Wisconsin where it really gets nice and cold. Other than a wire on the distributor that goes to the coil, wires going to the gas sender in the gas tank and turn signal light wire, all of my wiring in the car is original to the best of my knowledge. It sure looks like it is anyway. Yet my coupe will start right up. So........if your car isn't starting right up, it's either something in the electrical system preventing it, or the fuel system that needs fixing.

Best thing to do is invest in a meter to check your wiring. That will tell you if and where you have a problem in the wiring. Once you locate that, you can replace just that one or two wires or maybe just the connections to solve your problem. Total investment is a cheap meter and a few strands of wire, or a connector or two. Less than maybe 20 or 40 bucks. Or, instead of a meter, you may be able to find the problem with a simple test light. Those are under 10 bucks I think.

In your case with the smoking dash, I'd say your problem is electrical as far as starting is concerned.

By the way. Merle said his starter and generator was sent out to a shop for checking or repair. He lives in Wisconsin too. But.....the point is. I've never checked my starter or generator. Who knows how long ago they were rebuilt or replaced. Bottom line, they both work just fine, and that's what counts. Just because they are old doesn't mean they are bad. Yours may not be either. Just something else (like wiring) in your electrical system causing your starting problem.

[Normspeed]

Hi Robert, sorry to hear Jenny is not feeling well. Here are a couple things I would be sure to check. Disconnect the battery ground cable first. I know you've worked under your dashboard before, so all connections are suspect. It doesn't take much pressure on a wire to loosen the little nut or screw that attaches it to a switch or a meter. A loose connection can get real hot and cause erratic problems.

Check all connections at the headlight switch for good tight connections.

While you're under the dashboard, check both of the connections at the ammeter for good tight connections (loose ones can kill your starting circuit).

The stock fuse on a P15 headlight switch was a 30 amp according to my book. If you use a 30 amp fuse it should be adequate whether you run 6, 8 or 12 volts.

Check the wires and connections at the floor dimmer switch.

Go up front near the radiator and find the terminal block where the headlight wires are connected. Make sure all connections there are clean and tight.

Check where both headlight ground wires are connected to ground. I think you'll need to take the headlight retainer rings off and partially pull out the headlight bulbs to do this. Don't mess with the adjusting screws, just the screws that hold in the retainer ring. Take each grounding screw loose and make sure things are shiny clean (sand off any corrosion) and tight.

Since the fuse is not burning out immediately, I don't think you are dealing with a dead short.

How about that replacement switch? Has it been in and working ok for a while, or did the problem come up right after you installed it? If it was a generic 12 volt switch it may be getting hot due to the higher amperage load in a 6 volt system.

When you put the switch in did you have to graft in any new wire? If so, it would need to be heavy stuff like the original, probably at least 14 gauge, and securely soldered to the old wire.

After you do all this, and you find the starter will not even click and the headlights don't work at all, open the hood and reconnect the battery ground cable;)

[RobertKB]

Robert, I have no advice to give that has not been given, but I just wanted to say welcome back to the forum. I always enjoyed your threads and loved it when you posted pictures in the vintage clothing you wear. Good to see you back on!