POC President Election

[Young Ed]

Ben I believe it is up to the region to make up the difference if they fall short. The money from the national is basically intended to pay for trophies with the region doing the rest.

[Captain Neon]

Ben I believe it is up to the region to make up the difference if they fall short. The money from the national is basically intended to pay for trophies with the region doing the rest.

I think that should remain. I really don't even like the idea of the national POC subsidising the trophies. I don't want a national POC President (or board) that feels the subsidy should be increased. In my opinion, offering greater subsidy from the national POC for national meets is an unfair expense on those 2000+ (over 2/3) that cannot or will not attend national meets. IMHO, raise dues much more and the net effect will be less not more people in the national club.

I'd be very interested in knowing the opinions of all three candidates on this subject. I think this is a key issue. I don't believe in rewarding failure. If the meets cannot support themselves, then, perhaps, the meets should be discontinued. A famous refrain in this hobby is, "Pay to Play." I'd rather see the regions plan more frugal national meets, but if the cost must be then the participants should pay for their fun.

[greg g]

I sent an E mail to each of the candidates, inviting them to review and comment on the posts on the POC forum. The email went out abotu 4 pm yesterday. I recieved a response from Dick Silhol, last evening. His basic reponse was that while he agreed that some changes should be made, it would take longer than the two year presidential term to accomplish the bylaw changes to adopt a driver or touring class. So I guess the apointment of a bylaw commitee that would do the work and span presidential terms was not considered. On the plus side he did not seem to be vehimently opposed to the idea.

Nick Desimone, just replied to the post on the POC. Stay tuned for further developments.

[Norm's Coupe]

As I said, I'm not a member any longer. Just observing from the outside. But.....I fail to understand why it would take over two years to make a simple change in club rules, or policies. It's not like changing the Constitution of the US. It's just a club with a few thousand people in it. Seems to me, they simply write the purposed changes up, send them to the local/regional clubs and have them voted on at the local/regional monthly meeting.

Granted not all members have or use computers, but even putting those changes in the Bulletin with a dead line of about a month for responses, shouldn't take more than 4 to 6 months. Then the national board members could either approve or disapprove the purposed changes within a few days via the telephone if they don't have email. Taking more than two years is simply a stall tactic. Either they want to pursue the subject or not. If it takes over two years to decide something, it tells me someone isn't all that interested, or they are too indecisive.

Personally, I'd want someone who's not afraid of change, make suggestions or make swift decisions as a leader. Doesn't take long for a club or business to go downhill, but it's twice as hard to build it back up, once it's down. Sounds like you guys need more aggressive leadership to me.

[desoto1939]

I was member of the NAtional DeSoto Club and ran the 98 Convention here in Philadelphia. Our NAtional board communicated every or every other month via a mialed package or via emails to the board members. The local chapters were not involved with the day to day decisions that the board of directors vote on.

If the Board had enought input and they decided to make a bylaw change then they voted the measure into effect. They are the govenroing body fo all of the local and set the policy for when a local club holds a national event.

When I chaired our convention we created a new class for previous winners. In this class if you were a previous winner from the pior year or a Senior AACA winner then you had the option of being placed into this new category. The thinking on this was to give the other participants that have not won a trophy a chance to get one and It also took some of the pressure off the guys that had the strictly show/trailer queens. For them they could then sit back and show there cars. They were awarded a special plaque. In this class we had a car that had won its AACA seniot and was a White Post resotoration. The gentleman that owner this car was the first one to volunteer to go into this class and it was a big success and has been adopted from then and is used at all of the Desoto events.

The President adpoted our request on a trial basis at our convention and then it was passed as a by law change. The POC should permit experimental chnages to see how this affects attendance and how the members that attend take to the change. We also published this in the advance registration packet.

You have to keep thinking out of the box. The clubs are getting older. Plymouths are no longer being produced so eventually the cars will not be restored and the newer 80/90/00's are soooo hard to work on that these might not even be worth the trouble to restore.

All clubs need to get there heads out of the sand hole. If they do not then they will die. We are seeing this in our local clubs and even with specific marquee clubs. Wake up and smell the roses before the pedals all wilt and get thrown out in the trash.

Comments welcome. I am an outsider to the POC but from my reading on this forum the members have some good suggestions and they need to keep pushing the current President to respond. If you let them off the hook and do not force them then they will never have a leg to stand on.

Rich Hartung Desoto1939@aol.com

[Young Ed]

Rich the POC did fairly recently inact a similar classification for former winners. The best of show winners go into the senior class and only compete against other best of show winners.

[TodFitch]

As I said' date=' I'm not a member any longer. Just observing from the outside. But.....I fail to understand why it would take over two years to make a simple change in club rules, or policies. It's not like changing the Constitution of the US. It's just a club with a few thousand people in it. Seems to me, they simply write the purposed changes up, send them to the local/regional clubs and have them voted on at the local/regional monthly meeting. ...snip...[/quote']

Sounds simple. About 20 years ago I led a bylaws change committee for a non-profit organization. It took us about two years to get some pretty simple changes made and that was with getting all the interested parties into the same room once a month for face to face negotiations.

I can well believe that it would take longer than two years to get the POC to make substantial changes. Especially if you read the current POC bylaws and you have even the faintest idea of some of the "power behind the throne" issues in the club. Whoever becomes the next POC president will have a long hard road to follow if they actually want to make some of the changes suggested by people on this thread.

[Norm's Coupe]

Tod,

It really is simple to change things, IF those with the power to make the changes happen want to. Like I said before, you never know, 2 years of inaction could possibly cause the whole club to collapse.

Back when I was a member of the POC or just after leaving it, I got into a "friendly" discussion via email with Jim B of the POC about making some change. Don't really remember what the subject matter was now. Anyway, his reply was the change in question could possibly change their "Non-profit" status. Now.....I can go along with that. But........he just left it there. If he really had an interest in possibly making that change, it wouldn't be hard to check to see if it would change the non-profit status. That would only entail a simple phone call to the clubs attorney, which could probably be answered in the same phone call. If not, it wouldn't (or shouldn't) take the attorney long to answer the question. But.........Jim never bothered to do that, probably because he didn't go along with what I mentioned. I think it was something to do with accepting modified Plymouth's to the club.

The same thing does happen in some business's too. People just can't seem to make a decision. Like the company I use to work for as a regional sales manager from 1968 to 1989. When I first took over that position I would follow the rules and call in for a decision to do certain things the regional managers had no authority to make. But.........after about a month or two of calling in, then waiting for several days for an answer, I started making my own decisions, regardless of what the company policy/rules said. After all, it pertained to what was happening in the field with the people and customers in my region. So........I took the bull by the horns (so to speak) and made the decisions on the spot and would worry about the consequences if any later. Also told the salespeople to just do it and if they got in trouble to say I told them to do whatever. Although questions by the owner of the company or others over me making that decision did come up sometimes, once I informed them why the decision was made, no more was ever said. Was also never told not to do that again. To me, that's what any leader should do. Take the bull by the horns, and just do it if you think it will help the organization.

Just look at our congress people. Most of the time it takes years for them to decide on when to have a potty break, much less something important about running the country. But........."SOMETIMES" if they truly want to get something done, it's done almost overnight.

This is why I made that other comment. Things can happen quickly if you have people at the top that aren't afraid of change.

Edited October 2, 2009 by Norm's Coupe

[Captain Neon]

I don't disagree with Dick's assessment that such formal changes would take more than two years. Since most members of the POC are not members of regional clubs, a plebiscite vote on by-laws and other formal changes must first be approved by the national board which, if I'm not mistaken, only formally meets at the national meets. To prevent railroading, a formal change in rules must be discussed a certain number of times before being placed on the annual plebiscite ballot. Also, notice to the membership via the Plymouth Bulletin must be made with an opportunity for members to have their opinions published in the Plymouth Bulletin for a few issues. A suggestion such as this is bound to garner strong feelings from people opposed and supportive. IMHO, every one needs the opportunity to say their piece. The process of member discussion via the letters section of the Plymouth Bulletin could take a year in and of itself. I don't think Dick is copping out. It appears to me that he has a realistic grasp on how things work within the POC.

However, there is nothing prohibiting the host region of a national meet from setting in place Greg's suggestions until they can be formally adopted. One might say that they are experimenting with the idea.

Dick reponded to me and was quite opposed to subsidising national meets, and even suggested that it would be better to only have one meet per year due to declining interest in them.

[Norm's Coupe]

I don't disagree with Dick's assessment that such formal changes would take more than two years. Since most members of the POC are not members of regional clubs, a plebiscite vote on by-laws and other formal changes must first be approved by the national board which, if I'm not mistaken, only formally meets at the national meets. To prevent railroading, a formal change in rules must be discussed a certain number of times before being placed on the annual plebiscite ballot. Also, notice to the membership via the Plymouth Bulletin must be made with an opportunity for members to have their opinions published in the Plymouth Bulletin for a few issues. A suggestion such as this is bound to garner strong feelings from people opposed and supportive. IMHO, every one needs the opportunity to say their piece. The process of member discussion via the letters section of the Plymouth Bulletin could take a year in and of itself. I don't think Dick is copping out. It appears to me that he has a realistic grasp on how things work within the POC.

As I mentioned before. What you say about putting it in the Bulletin is the proper way to get feedback. But.........You don't need that feedback to be open ended. "Put a one month (or 4 month since bulletin only comes out every two months) deadline for responses". That should give those who are really that concerned to "say their piece", either for or against. Once the deadline is over, that's it. If someone didn't respond in that time, evidently they weren't that interested, "so they will just have to forever hold their piece". Don't need to talk something to death, just do it and move on.

[Young Ed]

I dont agree with only having one meet per year but that is kinda the way its headed. Having more then 1 gives different areas a chance to attend. There used to be 3 every year spring summer and fall. Now its a spring/summer and a fall. Also the board only meets face to face at nationals but they do have conference calls inbetween.

[Captain Neon]

I do believe that Jim Benjaminson is part of the "power behind the throne" that Tod spoke of. Being the one visible constant of the club for almost 40 years gives him a lot of leverage in people's decision-making process. Running a suggestion past Jim Benjaminson that he opposes will probably go no further than him acknowledging that such a suggestion was made to him.

He is under no obligation to bring any suggestions made to any one else on the national POC board. You use the example of the national legislature. No member of the national POC board is any more obligated to propose an idea than a legislator is obligated to propose a bill for every constituent request.

I do not believe that the POC has a lawyer on retainer. If Jim was opposed to the idea, he certainly wasn't going to spend his own money to find out. I know that I wouldn't. The POC has no paid staff, and for that I am grateful.

[Captain Neon]

As I mentioned before. What you say about putting it in the Bulletin is the proper way to get feedback. But.........You don't need that feedback to be open ended. "Put a one month (or 4 month since bulletin only comes out every two months) deadline for responses". That should give those who are really that concerned to "say their piece"' date=' either for or against. Once the deadline is over, that's it. If someone didn't respond in that time, evidently they weren't that interested, "so they will just have to forever hold their piece". Don't need to talk something to death, just do it and move on.[/quote']

I disagree. I think people should be able to "talk it to death." When people begin talking in circles, it may be time to close up, but just two issues of the Plymouth Bulletin, IMHO, is simply not enough time for people to digest an idea, esp. if they didn't even know the idea was being considered. I don't know how many issues Lanny permitted formal discussion the last time a by-laws change was suggested, but I do remember the subject being discussed within the letters section for a couple of years before a vote was finally taken.

[greg g]

Perhaps what is needed is a member at large post. The main duty of that position would be to represent members voices on the board of directors. There might be one for the east and one for the wast. The MAL would solicit input on issues of importance from members in his or her regions and voice those concerns at the meetings. Lots of time individual members are hesitant to discuss their points of view to the board members.

Looking at the constitution the outgoing president remains a "director on the board for 6 years" So an intitiative started by a new president has 8 years to be dealt with ranther than 2 years during an active presidency. I do not see how including more members or boradening judging classes would jeopradize Not for profit status.

If its a case of suddenly having too much money from additional dues and fees, most charters for NFP's (and IRS rules) allow for the club or association to maintain cash reserves for up to one year's operating expenses, without question. If excess fees are a problem after one year, a special projects fund can be intitiated. Building reserves for a Library, museum, club headquarters etc.

Edited February 1, 2010 by greg g

[Norm's Coupe]

Greg,

You are exactly right, and I believe I mentioned that to Jim when he brought up the non-profit status. It's like when I was a cub scout leader years ago. Our boys were really good and raising funds for the troop. We would always end up with a lot of extra (profit) money at years end. So........to get rid of that money and still remain non-profit, we spent it all real fast. We'd simply buy new baseball equipment, baseball uniforms (T-shirts with team names and matching hats), lots of cases of soda and great prizes for the kids to win for selling the most candy bars, etc. We'd give them prizes like a bicycle, stereo's and other expensive prizes to them. Then the soda was used during the summer at outings for the boys and at the baseball games. All the free soda they wanted during the outing or game. Money isn't hard to get rid of to stay non-profit. If you can't spend it on something for the club, you can always donate that money to a charity to stay non-profit. Doesn't take a lawyer to figure that much out, or an accountant.

[TodFitch]

I do believe that Jim Benjaminson is part of the "power behind the throne" that Tod spoke of. ...snip...

Not the person I had in mind. Read about the power of the "founding directors" in the by-laws.... Not an elected position and basically has veto rights over any changes.

[Don Coatney]

One simple question. Why is this group of outcasts discussing the POC politics? This is not the POC forum. Suggest we move this thread to the POC forum. If the bosses to be on the POC forum even read the POC forum then they might have an better understanding of the concerns of potential POC members and the direction the POC needs to be going. Us outcasts are not going to change the POC rules by discussing them here. Suggest we discuss them on the POC forum where it has a much better chance of fixing what is broken.

[greg g]

No reaction from Carl Van Bibber yet. Certainly hope he responds.

[greg g]

would certaily encourage any interested parties to reply over there. But try not to over tax the forum's bandwidth.

[Captain Neon]

Not the person I had in mind. Read about the power of the "founding directors" in the by-laws.... Not an elected position and basically has veto rights over any changes.

I don't have access to any of the POC's rules and regulations as I am unwilling to part with my hard-earned $60 to buy a roster where, I assume, said rules are published. As I am not even a regional member, never attend national meets, am considered a "member in name only," and have never found them on-line, I have no way to peruse such rules.

If is as you state, then, it behooves the host regions of subsequent POC national meets to follow California's lead and offer a "modified" class, and maybe even Cascade's "special guest" parking they are planning for this coming spring. Those two opportunities, it seems to me, would go a long way towards changing the perception that some have of the Plymouth Owners Club.

Sounds like formal change is unlikely any time soon, but the regions (i.e. local loosely affiliated clubs) have a great deal of autonomy in their own activities and a free rein on planning national meets.

Since both Nate and Dick both stated in e-mails to me that they would not support greater subsidies from the national treasury to the national meets, I really don't care who wins now. I'm inclined to just throw the bloody ballot in the trash now. There will be a new POC President, and it will probably be either Nate or Dick as Carl doesn't seem to care enough to reply to e-mail.

[TodFitch]

I don't have access to any of the POC's rules and regulations as I am unwilling to part with my hard-earned $60 to buy a roster where, I assume, said rules are published. As I am not even a regional member, never attend national meets, am considered a "member in name only," and have never found them on-line, I have no way to peruse such rules. ...snip...

If you are a national member then you can go the the Golden State Region's web site and use the "National POC Member Guest Login" on the top right of any page. Once logged in you can look up people in the national roster and you can read the national bylaws.

Various web addresses will get you to the Golden State Region's web site (same server, just different DNS names):

http://www.goldenstate.ply33.com/

http://goldenstate.ply33.com/

http://goldenstate.plymouthbulletin.com/

http://www.goldenstateregion.com/

(http://goldenstateregion.com/ is broken so don't bother trying that one. I hope to figure out what my DNS provider is doing wrong some day in the not to distant future.)

[greg g]

The constitution and bylaws are avaiable on line without log in.

http://www.plymouthbulletin.com/constitution.htm

[Captain Neon]

Maybe I'm missing something, but the only function that I see of Founder Director is one vote, and in charge of calling candidates with election results. I'm not so naieve to deny that he has a great deal of influence, and may even be a sort of de facto dictator, but I don't see any where that all changes must first receive his blessing or concurence. I've been in several organisations where a still-living "founding father" had almost exclusive power in an organisation, but it was only because others allowed him to have it.

Again, IMHO, it looks to me that the host regions have a whole lot more to say with how meets are handled than any sort of rules from on high. Greg's suggestions could be implemented for the show in Portland and no one to blame for them not being so, but the region's own leadership. Those winning trophies in the "modified" class may not get their smiling pictures printed in the Plymouth Bulletin, but that is minour. Enough regions offer a "modified" class at the national meets and it will quickly become customary.

Seems like those wanting a "modified" class should be lobbying Gary Rusher, President of the Cascade Region, @ chiefgr@hotmail.com rather than trying to get the national leadership to implement such a thing from the top down. The meets, from what I have read here, seem to be the sole domain of the host region. It seems like the Cascade region wants to be accomodating from what I can gather from their brochure. If no one enters the class, then, yeah, it probably won't continue, but if folks who's only reason for not attending is because their "modified" Plymouth won't win a trophy need to show up in Portland and register for the "modified" class.

From Greg's report of the meet in Maryland it sounds like it wasn't a POC issue, but rather a Mid-Atlantic region problem.

[Don Coatney]

Maybe I'm missing something, but the only function that I see of Founder Director is one vote, and in charge of calling candidates with election results. I'm not so naieve to deny that he has a great deal of influence, and may even be a sort of de facto dictator, but I don't see any where that all changes must first receive his blessing or concurence. I've been in several organisations where a still-living "founding father" had almost exclusive power in an organisation, but it was only because others allowed him to have it.

Again, IMHO, it looks to me that the host regions have a whole lot more to say with how meets are handled than any sort of rules from on high. Greg's suggestions could be implemented for the show in Portland and no one to blame for them not being so, but the region's own leadership. Those winning trophies in the "modified" class may not get their smiling pictures printed in the Plymouth Bulletin, but that is minour. Enough regions offer a "modified" class at the national meets and it will quickly become customary.

Seems like those wanting a "modified" class should be lobbying Gary Rusher, President of the Cascade Region, @ chiefgr@hotmail.com rather than trying to get the national leadership to implement such a thing from the top down. The meets, from what I have read here, seem to be the sole domain of the host region. It seems like the Cascade region wants to be accomodating from what I can gather from their brochure. If no one enters the class, then, yeah, it probably won't continue, but if folks who's only reason for not attending is because their "modified" Plymouth won't win a trophy need to show up in Portland and register for the "modified" class.

From Greg's report of the meet in Maryland it sounds like it wasn't a POC issue, but rather a Mid-Atlantic region problem.

Captain Neon;

I just read the thread Greg started on the POC forum. I see that you have not posted a response there. Is there a reason you have not done so? As you have strong political thoughts it would make more sence if you expressed your thoughts on the POC forum where they might do some good.

[Norm's Coupe]

After reading all these comments and others in other threads, one has to question are the National Clubs be it the POC or any other national club just a magazine offering a Franchise to use their name?

That's a good question I think. After all, I or anyone could start a national club via printing a magazine, then offer to allow the use of the name providing you follow my guide lines. Could be for profit or non profit, wouldn't matter either way, I'd still make a profit.

You may ask how it could be non profit if I made a profit. That's simple. The officers and people running the club would work for the club without pay. But...I still have to have the magazine printed. So.........using the club non profit name I contract with a printing company to print the magazine. Since the club is legally a corporation and the printing company is too, I could even own the printing company. A corporation is not an individual for tax purposes, it's an individual entity. That way, I can unload the profits (or most of them) by simply paying the printing company to print and mail the magazines out. The profits left over then can be used to furnish the trophies at shows. So.........officially my club would have no profits and would fit the non profit status for the IRS rules. But.......I still made profits at my printing company. I could even pay the staffers of the club a salary out of the money generated by the club and remain non profit. Just check out the charity non profit organizations around. Many of them pay staffers out of money you donate, then only give away a small amount to whatever charity they are collecting for. As far as the cost of the monthly magazines go, I can have color 27 page catalogs with pictures gang printed for roughly under 50 cents a copy with one printer in the Chicago area. Was having them printed for only 27 cents a copy on glossy paper back in the late 90's. Have since went with an online catalog though. I did have to order a minimum of 5000 copies to get that price though. But........even at 50 cents per copy the cost for 5000 is only $1500. So........In the case of the POC they would need to order 5000 copies 6 times a year for the bi-monthly magazine at a cost of about $9,000 for the whole year. Then it would cost another roughly $1.00 or so per issue for mailing cost. That would be roughly another $10,800 (postage) for mailing per year. If they have 3000 members, that brings in about $84,000 per year at the $28 membership fee. So.......subtract the total cost between the two and you have about $64,200 left over. Since no staff members are paid, where does all that money go? It doesn't cost that much for a few trophies per year. That probably means that's what they are paying their good friend to publish and mail the magazine. But.......they could do it all for much less with another printer. (I did point that out when I was a club member, but it went in one ear and out the other. I even gave them the name of the printer I used).

That said, as mentioned, most clubs are just allowing the use of the name to promote their magazine, like a franchise company sells franchises for use of their name. If you want proof of that, call the Goodguys and they will come right out and tell you. We aren't really a club, we just sell the magazine to promote the hobby. That's what they told me anyway. It's a toll free call if you want to ask them. They don't financially help any local clubs at all. They just set up the shows around the country and give away the prizes that are donated by the vendors as advertising. The shows promote their magazine and the vendors pay for most of the cost of putting on the show through booth rentals. Then the balance of the cost is of course from registration fees collected for the shows.

Anyway, that's my take on national clubs, regardless of what club it is.

Edited October 3, 2009 by Norm's Coupe